Language List

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MarkusP
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Re: Language List

Postby MarkusP » 2018-05-02, 19:43

What is even the purpose of the language list, and why are you using it when you're only finding irrelevancy in it?
Native: (sv) Swedish, Värmlandic
Learning: Old Swedish
and Proto-Germanic

MarkusP
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Re: Language List

Postby MarkusP » 2018-05-02, 22:06

Whatever the case may be if any flags do remain. I'm compilating the mentioned group of dialects here as to determine it.

https://www.memrise.com/course/1937245/ ... ncomplete/
Native: (sv) Swedish, Värmlandic
Learning: Old Swedish
and Proto-Germanic

vijayjohn
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Re: Language List

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-02, 23:45

The language list is used both for listing (in your user profile) the languages you know and at what level you know them, and for generating flags that are used in the monthly Forum Song Contests and in probably most bi- or multilingual contexts on this forum. I'm not saying those are the only uses or anything, but those are the ones that come to mind for me.

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Karavinka
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Re: Language List

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-03, 4:25

Since I happen to be the asshole who wrote the posts linked by Aurinĭa, here's my two cents.

MarkusP, if you are a native speaker of one of the Swedish dialects and want to have it represented on your profile, I guess why not, we could make a case for you. After all, whether you feel your dialect is substantially different, or if your dialect is a part of identity and you want to express it, I see no real harm other than slight cluttering of the list.

After all, the profile is to help us see what you speak and what you are interested in. On the linked posts, I requested Ancient South Arabian basically for myself, because I doubt anyone else is currently using that code. I can't speak for all of us, but I think we're generally fine with adding one more thing to our master list if someone is actually going to use it. But adding all Swedish dialects with rough geographic divisions is, IMO, an overkill.

Anyways, that's just my opinion. The same about the Papuan or Formosan or other languages we lump together for the purpose of FSC, but if you're dedicated to one specific language and is a part of your long-term interest then I see no reason we should deny however obscure the language is.

I don't know what Aurinĭa really intended when she quoted my posts, but I think she meant to bring up what I argued for the removal of the Japanese dialects because I don't think using Swedish provincial symbols to represent the dialects of that province would be politically questionable (unlike Vietnamese, Chinese or Korean flags).
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Aurinĭa
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Re: Language List

Postby Aurinĭa » 2018-05-03, 7:27

IpseDixit wrote:1) Even though I myself have asked to add a dialect at least once in the past, I'm now quite convinced that we'd be better off without them. I mean, they're a waste of space and make it more difficult to navigate the language list, and above all - in many cases - they're not based on actual linguistic criteria but rather on countries, so - quite ironically - at the end of the day you don't even know what dialect a person really speaks.

3) I also need to get this off my chest: I see people ask to add obscure languages that they themself are not going to study (or at least I'm under this impression, I mean I've seen people ask to add new languages and then they didn't even bother to add them to their profile). Is this really necessary, could you just ask to add languages that you are quite sure you're going to study?


Karavinka wrote:After all, the profile is to help us see what you speak and what you are interested in. On the linked posts, I requested Ancient South Arabian basically for myself, because I doubt anyone else is currently using that code. I can't speak for all of us, but I think we're generally fine with adding one more thing to our master list if someone is actually going to use it. But adding all Swedish dialects with rough geographic divisions is, IMO, an overkill.

I don't know what Aurinĭa really intended when she quoted my posts, but I think she meant to bring up what I argued for the removal of the Japanese dialects because I don't think using Swedish provincial symbols to represent the dialects of that province would be politically questionable (unlike Vietnamese, Chinese or Korean flags).

That's what I intended, yes. The politics question is less relevant for Swedish dialects, but perhaps it would be good to keep in mind for other subdivisions.

What I think about the discussion is basically what you and IpseDixit have said.

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księżycowy
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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-05, 19:39

I just noticed that the Edo language has it's native name and English name switched around on the language list page (not sure about the drop down list).

Linguaphile
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Re: Language List

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-06, 2:07

vijayjohn wrote:The language list is used both for listing (in your user profile) the languages you know and at what level you know them, and for generating flags that are used in the monthly Forum Song Contests and in probably most bi- or multilingual contexts on this forum. I'm not saying those are the only uses or anything, but those are the ones that come to mind for me.

The flags are used very extensively in the Translations forum. Often, the flags are used in place of language names there, often dozens of them in a single thread or post. And posts there very often include languages for which there is no Language List entry or flag, but people either use the "own flag" code to add their own, or just write the language name in place of using a flag.
I've done that (writing the name in place of a flag) quite a few times for both Iu Mienh and Ingrian, and I haven't suggested that flags be added to the Language List for those languages, because I'm not sure which flag should be used. Iu Mienh doesn't have its own flag and is spoken in more than one country; Ingrian apparently has two different flags and I don't know the cultural/political significance or implications of either one, so I haven't requested that either one be added. I wouldn't know which flag to recommend, and don't want to recommend something that has political implications I'm unaware of (because I suspect that they do, I just don't know what they are and haven't really looked into it).
I've also used the Mexican flag for Mixtec (which is what is already done for Zapotec, which is in the Language List), but haven't suggested that it be added to the Language List because there isn't much activity for the Mixtec languages on this forum. I've only used it in posts once or twice myself.
Not that I wouldn't mind any of these languages being added if someone does know which flag to use. But there are around 7000 living languages, plus dialects, extinct languages and conlangs. We're never going to have them all listed.

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Luís
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Re: Language List

Postby Luís » 2018-05-06, 11:24

księżycowy wrote:I just noticed that the Edo language has it's native name and English name switched around on the language list page (not sure about the drop down list).


It's fixed
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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księżycowy
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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-06, 12:04

תודה

Multiturquoise
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Multiturquoise » 2018-05-07, 9:57

English Name: Dolgan
Native Name: дулҕан тыла
ISO: dlg
Flag: (nio) (same as Nganasan)

Also Kirundi needs to be re-added.

English Name: Kirundi
Native Name: Kirundi
ISO: rn
Flag: (rn)
Häzirki wagtda türkmen dilini öwrenýärin. (tk)

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Luís
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Luís » 2018-05-13, 18:58

Multiturquoise wrote:English Name: Dolgan
Native Name: дулҕан тыла
ISO: dlg
Flag: (nio) (same as Nganasan)

Also Kirundi needs to be re-added.

English Name: Kirundi
Native Name: Kirundi
ISO: rn
Flag: (rn)


Added
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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księżycowy
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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-15, 13:33

I'm curious what other people's thoughts are on either adding the Yue variety of Chinese to the list or changing Cantonese to Yue.

vijayjohn
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Re: Language List

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-15, 23:30

On the one hand, it would be more consistent (we have Wu, Gan, Xiang, etc. but not Yue). On the other hand, that would just be adding yet another variety of Chinese to the list, and the list is already rather large as it is, right?

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księżycowy
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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-15, 23:34

That's why I also suggested swapping Cantonese for Yue.

EDIT: Fixed typo.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2018-05-15, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.

vijayjohn
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Re: Language List

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-15, 23:38

You mean for Yue? :P The problem with doing that, though, is that people are less likely to know what "Yue" is than they are to know what "Cantonese" is. (Of course, this hasn't stopped us from having Wu and not Shanghainese, but...).

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księżycowy
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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-15, 23:51

Yes, I meant Yue. Stupid spell check. :P

We also have Minnan instead of Taiwanese. :whistle:

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Karavinka
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Re: Language List

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-16, 0:17

Minnan for Taiwanese makes some sense as Taiwanese is not the only variant of Minnan.

Whereas we don't have the same problem with Cantonese. Cantonese is fine IMO.
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Linguaphile
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Re: Language List

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-16, 0:45

Karavinka wrote:Minnan for Taiwanese makes some sense as Taiwanese is not the only variant of Minnan.

Whereas we don't have the same problem with Cantonese. Cantonese is fine IMO.

Isn't the same true of Cantonese though? Granted, it's the most common one and sometimes the name Cantonese is used for the entire group, but technically Cantonese is just one variety of Yue. There is Guangzhou (Cantonese), Taishanese (Toishanese), etc.
What about calling it "Yue/Cantonese"? If just one name must be used, I'm in favor of changing it to Yue.

vijayjohn
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Re: Language List

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-16, 1:29

Min and Yue are two of the big groups of varieties of Chinese. Minnan (Southern Min) is a subgroup within Min (along with Northern Min, Central Min, Eastern Min, and Puxian Min, if not also Leizhou Min, Shao-Jiang Min, and Hainanese), and then Hokkien is a variety of Minnan, and Taiwanese Hokkien in turn is a variety of Hokkien.
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2018-05-16, 2:30, edited 1 time in total.

Linguaphile
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Re: Language List

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-16, 1:55

Linguaphile wrote:
Karavinka wrote:Minnan for Taiwanese makes some sense as Taiwanese is not the only variant of Minnan.

Whereas we don't have the same problem with Cantonese. Cantonese is fine IMO.

Isn't the same true of Cantonese though? Granted, it's the most common one and sometimes the name Cantonese is used for the entire group, but technically Cantonese is just one variety of Yue. There is Guangzhou (Cantonese), Taishanese (Toishanese), etc.
What about calling it "Yue/Cantonese"? If just one name must be used, I'm in favor of changing it to Yue.

I should have stated the above more clearly: if just one name must be used for Yue/Cantonese (rather than using the two names and calling it something like "Yue/Cantonese"), I'm in favor of changing Cantonese to Yue.


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