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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Saim » 2014-04-30, 10:30

vijayjohn wrote:
Saim wrote:For Bodo and Kashmiri I agree, I had forgotten about those. But in the case of Shahmukhi Punjabi the flag represents the provincial government, not the province in a regional sense. If you look closely yyou'll notice the word "hukoomat" under the seal.

Hmm, but then isn't the same true of Bodo and Kashmiri, actually? :P The Bodo flag is the separatist movement's flag; the Kashmiri one is that of Jammu and Kashmir.


In the case of Jammu and Kashmir the only problem I can see is that the territory is multiethnic and outside of the Kashmir Valley area there are few actual Kashmiri-speakers, but in terms of representing the state it's not comparable with the western Punjabi one because the latter is only a seal of the provincial government, not used to represent the provincial population or culture or anything else. The Kashmiri one is a more "normal" regional flag.

mōdgethanc wrote:English is spoken in the rest of the UK; England is more of a province than a state;


Not even that, it doesn't really have the status of a separate administrative division. Juridically it could only really be defined as the part of the UK without an autonomous parliament.

use of the English flag is, unfortunately, sometimes associated with xenophobia and racism.


Not any more so than the Union Jack is associated with colonialism, I would argue.

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Viridzen » 2014-04-30, 22:25

vijayjohn wrote:
Viridzen wrote:Well, for Yiddish, this one is actually used in the real world.

I'm sorry for speaking so frankly here, but I don't see how the use of that flag by one synagogue proves that anyone else uses it. Do you have any other evidence for its real-world use? I'm asking partly just because I'm curious and partly because I think you'll need to if you want your proposal of using that flag to be taken seriously.

mōdgethanc wrote:Yeah, much as I like the idea of having a Yiddish flag separate from that of Israel, we need more proof that one is

Aside from the fact that it has a Facebook page, a Tumblr... whatever those are called, and a Flickr account, all of which are obviously the same person, no. It's the most applicable flag for Yiddish, however. The only other thing: this.

Also, the Qing flag for Classical Chinese is a terrible choice. The language wasn't used in the Qing dynasty. The best is either this (the last period in which it was used) or a Shang or Zhou flag someone makes; I have made some for them, it's a long story.
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-01, 0:19

mōdgethanc wrote:I didn't know the Tamil flag was just the flag of the World Tamil Congress Confederation. I thought it was the flag of Tamil Nadu. I was surprised to find out that Indian states don't have official flags.

The current Indian states didn't even exist until after independence and were formed largely on a linguistic basis. (For example, even though Kerala is smaller than Switzerland, it was formed after independence from what were three kingdoms before India gained its independence. Before those three kingdoms were formed, Kerala was basically a big mess of very small kingdoms). The kingdoms that existed before independence did have their own flags, but perhaps using those would have suggested a) a throwback to British rule and b) an interest in secession (not to mention the problem of deciding which kingdom's flag should be used to represent a state, as long as a state was formed from multiple kingdoms as in Kerala's case).
Viridzen wrote:a Tumblr... whatever those are called

Blog. :)

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby OldBoring » 2014-05-01, 4:44

But there are many states that speak Hindi, right?

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-05-01, 7:14

vijayjohn wrote:
Viridzen wrote:a Tumblr... whatever those are called

Blog. :)
Or just a Tumblr. You could also say it has a Facebook. Not sure about Flickr.
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-01, 8:37

loqu wrote:I don't claim we should use historical flags either, but using actual ones is quite misleading as well, not to mention nationalistic. Sure I have noted that the flag of UK is used to represent English, but that is equally wrong in my point of view, since the UK was created much later than the standardization of English.
I don't see it as nationalistic except in the vaguest sense of the term. Certainly not jingoistic, if that's what you mean. But to each their own.
It's not that we would be contrarian, since Ethnologue is not a 'model' to follow. They are not always right in their descriptions of language families, so much less in their way of adscribing languages to countries.
Ethnologue's flaws have been noted here many a time. Still, they're the closest thing to a complete database of languages that I know of.
Anyway I know this is preaching in the desert from my part, because flags are unfortunately here to stay. But I still think they are the worst idea in the history of the Unilang boards.
I wouldn't go that far, but I think we can all agree that it was poorly implemented and inconsistent.
Saim wrote:Not any more so than the Union Jack is associated with colonialism, I would argue.
I wouldn't, because the colonial period is long over but xenophobia and racism are still alive and kicking in the UK. But this is a red herring because as you said yourself:
Not even that, it doesn't really have the status of a separate administrative division. Juridically it could only really be defined as the part of the UK without an autonomous parliament.

Viridzen wrote:It's the most applicable flag for Yiddish, however. The only other thing: this.
I disagree that a flag that isn't official anywhere is very useful; however, the flag of the Jewish Autonomist Oblast is even worse, because that was a colossal failure and barely any Jews at all live there now, let alone Yiddish speakers. Also, it looks like a gay pride flag.
Also, the Qing flag for Classical Chinese is a terrible choice. The language wasn't used in the Qing dynasty. The best is either this (the last period in which it was used) or a Shang or Zhou flag someone makes; I have made some for them, it's a long story.
Nobody used it at all during the entire Qing period? I call shenanigans on that. I was under the impression that Classical Chinese was used for almost all serious writing up until the 20th century. If you mean that it was a dead language, and the court spoke Manchu, sure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't in use by anyone.

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-01, 8:58

Youngfun wrote:But there are many states that speak Hindi, right?

Absolutely. That's at least part of the reason why I said "largely on a linguistic basis." Although even within the Hindi-speaking region, I think there are still relevant linguistic differences; Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh are both Hindi-speaking states, but I think it's fair to say that Rajasthan is where the Rajasthani languages are spoken in much the same way that e.g. Tamil Nadu is where Tamil is spoken (within India).
mōdgethanc wrote:
loqu wrote:Anyway I know this is preaching in the desert from my part, because flags are unfortunately here to stay. But I still think they are the worst idea in the history of the Unilang boards.
I wouldn't go that far, but I think we can all agree that it was poorly implemented and inconsistent.

Yeah. I think that's largely why I don't even care all that much about the flags issue.
Viridzen wrote:Also, the Qing flag for Classical Chinese is a terrible choice. The language wasn't used in the Qing dynasty. The best is either this (the last period in which it was used) or a Shang or Zhou flag someone makes; I have made some for them, it's a long story.
Nobody used it at all during the entire Qing period? I call shenanigans on that. I was under the impression that Classical Chinese was used for almost all serious writing up until the 20th century. If you mean that it was a dead language, and the court spoke Manchu, sure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't in use by anyone.

I think Viridzen's trying to say that Old Chinese, which Classical Chinese is based on, was not spoken in the Qing dynasty but rather in the Shang or Zhou dynasty, and that therefore, the appropriate flag for Classical Chinese would be a flag from one of those dynasties rather than from the Qing dynasty. I mean, if that's right, then I kind of see his point. I hardly think the Qing flag would be more appropriate than a Shang flag or a Zhou flag or even a Han flag, because AFAIK the Qing dynasty was not an important part of the history of Classical Chinese.

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-01, 9:08

vijayjohn wrote:I think Viridzen's trying to say that Old Chinese, which Classical Chinese is based on, was not spoken in the Qing dynasty but rather in the Shang or Zhou dynasty, and that therefore, the appropriate flag for Classical Chinese would be a flag from one of those dynasties rather than from the Qing dynasty. I mean, if that's right, then I kind of see his point. I hardly think the Qing flag would be more appropriate than a Shang flag or a Zhou flag or even a Han flag, because AFAIK the Qing dynasty was not an important part of the history of Classical Chinese.
Yeah, but Classical Chinese is not Old Chinese. It was always a dead language, never the vernacular. I think the Qing flag works because it was the last time period when the language was official (or at least widely used). Also, you have to admit it is a pretty sweet flag.

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Saim » 2014-05-01, 9:29

Youngfun wrote:But there are many states that speak Hindi, right?


It depends on what you take to be "Hindi". "Hindi" either refers to a standard language based on Khariboli speech or an entire dialect continuum that uses said standard. Many of the languages in this group have little do with each other - the "Hindi dialects" Bhojpuri and Magahi belong to the Eastern group of Indo-Aryan languages, meaning they are more closely related to Bengali or Assamese than Hindi. Before it was made the official language of all these other North Indian states, Khariboli was only really present as a mother tongue in Delhi and western Uttar Pradesh.

Here's the traditional spread of the Khariboli or Hindi vernacular (i.e. Delhi and western Uttar Pradesh):

Image

And here are the areas where Khariboli is used as the official language. In many of these places, such as urban areas of Bihar, Western Punjab, and non-Khariboli Uttar Pradesh there is a process of language shift and Hindustani is being adopted as a mother tongue.

Image

To be honest, all of Pakistan should be coloured orange because although a province can declare another language the "first" provincial language always has to be Urdu.

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby OldBoring » 2014-05-01, 11:51

Thanks, Saim!
That reminds me of China where small undocumented ethnicities are always classified as Han. While Jin and Ping became "separate languages" only recently. Before they were considered Mandarin dialects.

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I think Viridzen's trying to say that Old Chinese, which Classical Chinese is based on, was not spoken in the Qing dynasty but rather in the Shang or Zhou dynasty, and that therefore, the appropriate flag for Classical Chinese would be a flag from one of those dynasties rather than from the Qing dynasty. I mean, if that's right, then I kind of see his point. I hardly think the Qing flag would be more appropriate than a Shang flag or a Zhou flag or even a Han flag, because AFAIK the Qing dynasty was not an important part of the history of Classical Chinese.
Yeah, but Classical Chinese is not Old Chinese. It was always a dead language, never the vernacular. I think the Qing flag works because it was the last time period when the language was official (or at least widely used). Also, you have to admit it is a pretty sweet flag.

mōdgethanc is right. The Chinese call "Classical Chinese" (文言文) everything written before the May Fourth movement (1919). I've read that because of the influential Confucius, everybody in the following centuries imitated his style of writing, and possibly Confucius himself imitated the style of writing of the past Zhou dynasty. But those after him were still influenced in some way by their own contemporary and dialectal speech.
Probably at some time in the beginning, in "Old Chinese" what was spoken did correspond with the writing.

So something written by Confucius and something written in the 1919 may be very different. And "Classical Chinese" is a concept that makes sense only from a modern Chinese's viewpoint that regards everything written with an "ancient" grammar as "Classical Chinese".

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Saim » 2014-05-01, 12:46

No worries.

Oh, and I forgot to give the key to the second map. Dark orange means Hindi is the main official language, light orange means it is a second official language, yellow means it's official only at the central state level and white means there's no recognition of it.

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Viridzen » 2014-05-01, 22:36

mōdgethanc wrote:
Viridzen wrote:It's the most applicable flag for Yiddish, however. The only other thing: this.
I disagree that a flag that isn't official anywhere is very useful; however, the flag of the Jewish Autonomist Oblast is even worse, because that was a colossal failure and barely any Jews at all live there now, let alone Yiddish speakers. Also, it looks like a gay pride flag.

It's the problem with trying to find a flag for Yiddish (or most languages, really) is that it is not official in any territory, it doesn't have a widely recognised flag, etc. All else, and this may be ridiculous, is the YIVO logo, or the flag of Lithuania (I can't find the article, but it was said they might make it official there. Highly unlikely, though.) The one I showed at first, and the one in my signature, is at least an attempt at starting one. It's the best we have.
As for its looking like a gay pride flag, the Russian government even addressed that, so that's another hurdle.
mōdgethanc wrote:
Also, the Qing flag for Classical Chinese is a terrible choice. The language wasn't used in the Qing dynasty. The best is either this (the last period in which it was used) or a Shang or Zhou flag someone makes; I have made some for them, it's a long story.
Nobody used it at all during the entire Qing period? I call shenanigans on that. I was under the impression that Classical Chinese was used for almost all serious writing up until the 20th century. If you mean that it was a dead language, and the court spoke Manchu, sure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't in use by anyone.

I guess I was talking about Old Chinese. As for Classical Chinese, I guess the Qing flag is fine, now that I understand.
vijayjohn wrote:I think Viridzen's trying to say that Old Chinese, which Classical Chinese is based on, was not spoken in the Qing dynasty but rather in the Shang or Zhou dynasty, and that therefore, the appropriate flag for Classical Chinese would be a flag from one of those dynasties rather than from the Qing dynasty. I mean, if that's right, then I kind of see his point. I hardly think the Qing flag would be more appropriate than a Shang flag or a Zhou flag or even a Han flag, because AFAIK the Qing dynasty was not an important part of the history of Classical Chinese.

The Qing dynasty was the last to use Classical Chinese, apparently. Also, it's the only past dynasty I know of that even had an official flag. The Han and Ming have ones, but I only know that from pictures I've seen, which could be depicting military flags (better than nothing!) and the Shang and Zhou dynasties, which used a solid colour (as well as other dynasties).
(Also, please don't be using "his", I'm neutrois, and I prefer "it" as my pronoun. Just throwing that out there.)
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-02, 0:06

Viridzen wrote:(Also, please don't be using "his", I'm neutrois, and I prefer "it" as my pronoun. Just throwing that out there.)

Oh whoops, sorry. I was actually trying to avoid using any pronouns at all because I thought I might get it wrong, but I made that mistake anyway, so thanks for catching it and letting me know! I'm not even sure why I thought of saying "his." :oops:

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Viridzen » 2014-05-03, 1:39

vijayjohn wrote:
Viridzen wrote:(Also, please don't be using "his", I'm neutrois, and I prefer "it" as my pronoun. Just throwing that out there.)

Oh whoops, sorry. I was actually trying to avoid using any pronouns at all because I thought I might get it wrong, but I made that mistake anyway, so thanks for catching it and letting me know! I'm not even sure why I thought of saying "his." :oops:

Oh, don't worry about it. You didn't know at the time. As for why you defaulted to "his", so many people default to male pronouns, maybe that's it.
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-03, 2:58

Youngfun wrote:mōdgethanc is right. The Chinese call "Classical Chinese" (文言文) everything written before the May Fourth movement (1919). I've read that because of the influential Confucius, everybody in the following centuries imitated his style of writing, and possibly Confucius himself imitated the style of writing of the past Zhou dynasty. But those after him were still influenced in some way by their own contemporary and dialectal speech. Probably at some time in the beginning, in "Old Chinese" what was spoken did correspond with the writing.

So something written by Confucius and something written in the 1919 may be very different. And "Classical Chinese" is a concept that makes sense only from a modern Chinese's viewpoint that regards everything written with an "ancient" grammar as "Classical Chinese".

"Literary Chinese" is perhaps a more accurate translation of 文言文. In any case, that's the term used by Siniticists who want to emphasise the distinction between "Classical Chinese" in the narrow sense (i.e. the language of the Chinese classics, a.k.a. 古文) and the officially-promulgated form of the written language from the end of the Han up until the end of the Qing.
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Lauren » 2014-05-03, 3:07

Viridzen wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Viridzen wrote:(Also, please don't be using "his", I'm neutrois, and I prefer "it" as my pronoun. Just throwing that out there.)

Oh whoops, sorry. I was actually trying to avoid using any pronouns at all because I thought I might get it wrong, but I made that mistake anyway, so thanks for catching it and letting me know! I'm not even sure why I thought of saying "his." :oops:

Oh, don't worry about it. You didn't know at the time. As for why you defaulted to "his", so many people default to male pronouns, maybe that's it.

It's not just cis/hetero people that do that if that's what you're thinking; I'm a trans chick and do it too. And English doesn't have a dedicated neuter grammatical gender for anything let alone humans, and the masculine gender is the default in many languages.
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby 1991sudarshan » 2014-05-03, 16:57

I request the Admin to add Tulu language to the language list. Tulu language is a Dravidian language spoken in Western Coast of South India and the present generation is quite unaware about the Native Tulu script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulu_language

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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Viridzen » 2014-05-03, 17:04

Lowena wrote:
Viridzen wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Viridzen wrote:(Also, please don't be using "his", I'm neutrois, and I prefer "it" as my pronoun. Just throwing that out there.)

Oh whoops, sorry. I was actually trying to avoid using any pronouns at all because I thought I might get it wrong, but I made that mistake anyway, so thanks for catching it and letting me know! I'm not even sure why I thought of saying "his." :oops:

Oh, don't worry about it. You didn't know at the time. As for why you defaulted to "his", so many people default to male pronouns, maybe that's it.

It's not just cis/hetero people that do that if that's what you're thinking; I'm a trans chick and do it too. And English doesn't have a dedicated neuter grammatical gender for anything let alone humans, and the masculine gender is the default in many languages.

That's what I meant, that everyone, whichever gender, defaults to "his".
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby Lauren » 2014-05-03, 17:09

1991sudarshan wrote:I request the Admin to add Tulu language to the language list. Tulu language is a Dravidian language spoken in Western Coast of South India and the present generation is quite unaware about the Native Tulu script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulu_language

Might be a few years before they're caught up enough to resume adding languages. :P
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Re: "My languages" options

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-03, 20:02

Lowena wrote:And English doesn't have a dedicated neuter grammatical gender for anything let alone humans, and the masculine gender is the default in many languages.

Yeah, we need to use a language that doesn't have gender-specific pronouns, like Basque. :P Or maybe a Dravidian language like Malayalam, which does have gender-specific pronouns, except the only ones that exist are also inherently insulting. :lol:
Viridzen wrote:
It's not just cis/hetero people that do that if that's what you're thinking; I'm a trans chick and do it too.

That's what I meant, that everyone, whichever gender, defaults to "his".

Oh OK, good to know. (I have a friend who seems to feel really bad about using the wrong pronouns). Thanks! :)
Lowena wrote:
1991sudarshan wrote:I request the Admin to add Tulu language to the language list. Tulu language is a Dravidian language spoken in Western Coast of South India and the present generation is quite unaware about the Native Tulu script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulu_language

Might be a few years before they're caught up enough to resume adding languages. :P

Yeah, it certainly looks like it's been a while before any new languages were added. :| See, this is why (for the third time, sorry) I'm more concerned about the actual languages listed than the flags used to represent them. In fact, I'm kind of curious as to how often UniLang gets complaints about which flags are used vs. how often we get complaints about which languages are listed.


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