Language List

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vijayjohn
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Re: Language List

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-16, 1:29

Min and Yue are two of the big groups of varieties of Chinese. Minnan (Southern Min) is a subgroup within Min (along with Northern Min, Central Min, Eastern Min, and Puxian Min, if not also Leizhou Min, Shao-Jiang Min, and Hainanese), and then Hokkien is a variety of Minnan, and Taiwanese Hokkien in turn is a variety of Hokkien.
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2018-05-16, 2:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Language List

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-16, 1:55

Linguaphile wrote:
Karavinka wrote:Minnan for Taiwanese makes some sense as Taiwanese is not the only variant of Minnan.

Whereas we don't have the same problem with Cantonese. Cantonese is fine IMO.

Isn't the same true of Cantonese though? Granted, it's the most common one and sometimes the name Cantonese is used for the entire group, but technically Cantonese is just one variety of Yue. There is Guangzhou (Cantonese), Taishanese (Toishanese), etc.
What about calling it "Yue/Cantonese"? If just one name must be used, I'm in favor of changing it to Yue.

I should have stated the above more clearly: if just one name must be used for Yue/Cantonese (rather than using the two names and calling it something like "Yue/Cantonese"), I'm in favor of changing Cantonese to Yue.

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Re: Language List

Postby Karavinka » 2018-05-16, 6:20

Linguaphile wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
Karavinka wrote:Minnan for Taiwanese makes some sense as Taiwanese is not the only variant of Minnan.

Whereas we don't have the same problem with Cantonese. Cantonese is fine IMO.

Isn't the same true of Cantonese though? Granted, it's the most common one and sometimes the name Cantonese is used for the entire group, but technically Cantonese is just one variety of Yue. There is Guangzhou (Cantonese), Taishanese (Toishanese), etc.
What about calling it "Yue/Cantonese"? If just one name must be used, I'm in favor of changing it to Yue.

I should have stated the above more clearly: if just one name must be used for Yue/Cantonese (rather than using the two names and calling it something like "Yue/Cantonese"), I'm in favor of changing Cantonese to Yue.


If Taishanese is to be added then Taishanese is to be added. Making it "Yue" sounds like merging Spanish, Portuguese and Galician into "Ibero-Romance" IMO.

And like vijayjohn mentioned, "Taiwanese" can mean many things and we don't really have an option because the word can be just as ambiguous as "Scottish", but I don't think Cantonese has that problem. (If someone is actually studying different Minnan varieties, then we can probably add Taiwanese Minnan as a separate entry along with other Minnan varieties, but I don't think that's necessary as of now)
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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-16, 9:25

*Raises hand*
I'm studying Taiwanese Hokkien.

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Re: Language List

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-16, 13:38

Karavinka wrote:If Taishanese is to be added then Taishanese is to be added.

It could be done on the model of what's been done for Arabic and Saami: yue (Yue) is the inclusive code but below it there are more specific ones like yue-can (Yue - Cantonese) and yue-tai (Yue - Taishanese).

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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-16, 13:52

Which would be added even more to the list. :P

In all honesty, from my stand point, I'm perfectly fine with leaving Taiwanese Hokkien under the umbrella term Minnan.
As for Caontonese, I think it may be a little out of place considering that every other dialect/language/variety of Chinese is listed as Wu, Minnan, Mindong, etc. And these designations mean that we don't have to get into the nitty gritty things, like Shanghainess vs. Wenzhounese, or Cantonese vs. Taishanese etc.

Otherwise it would only be fair to split up the rest.

Yue may be problematic, but I see it as the less problematic option. Cantonese can mean the same as Yue, or mean the specific dialect of Yue. It's not the case the other way around.

I do get the concern that people learning Cantonese may not know it can be classified as Yue, but we're all helpful people, aren't we?

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Re: Language List

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-05-16, 14:02

księżycowy wrote:Which would be added even more to the list. :P

In all honesty, from my stand point, I'm perfectly fine with leaving Taiwanese Hokkien under the umbrella term Minnan.
As for Caontonese, I think it may be a little out of place considering that every other dialect/language/variety of Chinese is listed as Wu, Minnan, Mindong, etc. And these designations mean that we don't have to get into the nitty gritty things, like Shanghainess vs. Wenzhounese, or Cantonese vs. Taishanese etc.

Otherwise it would only be fair to split up the rest.

Yue may be problematic, but I see it as the less problematic option. Cantonese can mean the same as Yue, or mean the specific dialect of Yue. It's not the case the other way around.

I do get the concern that people learning Cantonese may not know it can be classified as Yue, but we're all helpful people, aren't we?

Makes sense to me!

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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-21, 0:25

So, are we settled on changing Cantonese to Yue, or are there still reservations?

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Re: Language List

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-05-21, 2:53

I guess I'm okay with that as long as it doesn't pose a problem for people who already have Cantonese in their profiles (especially e.g. if they're a native speaker).

EDIT: Actually, you know what? In Chinese itself, it's already Yue. It's just the English name that's wrong. :P

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Re: Language List

Postby księżycowy » 2018-05-21, 9:10

Do you have any native speakers? :o


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