Your comments about this new conlang

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Your comments about this new conlang

Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-20, 9:27

Some time ago, I presented a first draft of a language I invented: Simp-Lan. It was supposed to have a simpler pronunciation than Spanish, a simpler grammar than Chinese and a vocabulary based mainly on English. You can read more about it at http://anaproy.homeip.net/unilang/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579.
While I developped Simp-Lan, I realized some points in the grammar that I considered as inconsistencies. In my attempt to make the grammar more logical, I realized that the result won't look like Chinese any more. I wanted to have a logical word order, no difference between verbs, nouns and adjectives and the possibility to distinguish the subject, object and predicate of a sentence.

Now I finally took the time to create a new language that bears little similarity with the original Simp-Lan (or with Chinese): LAN SIMP.

The pronunciation remains the same:
- A, E, F, I, K, L, M, N, O, P, S, T, U, Y as in Spanish
- X as the English SH
- diphthongs: AY, EY, OY, UY, YA, YE, YO, YU

Grammar Rules:
1. global word order rule: The sentence starts with the predicate.
2. local word order rule: Within a constituent, specifiers come after the thing they specify. This is similar to the rule "noun precedes adjective" in Romance languages.
3. constituent rule: The subject follows the particle K, the object follows the particle N, an adjunct (specification of time or space) follows the particle T, and a complement with a predicate follows the particle P. Relative clauses applying to a constituent are written within the bracket particles KA and AK.
4. sentence type rule: Questions end with the particle MA, exclamations with the particle LA, affirmative sentences without such particles.
5. part of speech rule: Everything can be considered as a verb.

Special Vocabulary:
personal pronouns: AY, YU, TA
sex: NAN male, NYU female
degree:
- very very good: KU PU PU
- very good: KU PU
- good: KU
- not bad: KU MET
- bad: KU NO
- very bad: KU NO PU
- very very bad: KU NO PU PU
particles within constituents: EN and, NO not
sentence-initial particles: PAT but, TU also

And now our famous "sonidos del mundo" text in LAN SIMP:

KLIT N YU FLEN LA!
KLIT K AY N YU T XEKX NU UNILAN, NEYM SON MUNT K XEKX. KONT K XEKX N SEYF SON PIS LAYT PIK NO KA LIS TAYM TIS K YU AK. FONT P XO N LAN OL SON T XU MAN LEN LAN P LAYS KLAP SLON K AY P IMP K SEY LAN KU P MEYK POS K SEY LAN FAY. IS K POS P SI PLEYS TIS K YU N SON KA LEN XON NO K YU AK. PAT KEP MET K YU LA! LAYS K LAN LOK KA EF K LAN OL AK. KU MAS T TAYM OL K LIS KA SEY K MAN KA LEN T KIT N LAN TIS AK AK LYAT K AY MA? KOP K AY P TIK K YU P POS YUS PU K XEKX TIS T LEN YU.
SI N YU LA!


Literal translation:

KLIT N YU FLEN LA!
greet (obj) you friend (exclamation)
Hi friends!

KLIT K AY N YU T XEKX NU UNILAN,
greet (subj) me (obj) you (time/space) project new UniLang
Welcome to the new UniLang project,

NEYM SON MUNT K XEKX.
name sound world (subj) project
called "sounds of the world"

KONT K XEKX N SEYF SON PIS LAYT PIK NO
contain (subj) project (obj) {save sound = recording} {piece write = text} {big not = small}
This project consists of the recording of a small piece of text

KA LIS TAYM TIS K YU AK.
(opening bracket) listen {time this = now} (subj) you (closing bracket)
(that which you are listening to now)

FONT P XO N LAN OL SON T XU MAN LEN LAN
want (complement) show (obj) language all sound (time/space) direction {person learn = student} language
with the intention to present the sound of each language to language students,

P LAYS KLAP SLON K AY
(complement) reason believe strong (subj) we
because we believe strongly

P IMP K SEY LAN KU
(complement) important (subj) {speak language = pronunciation} good
in the importance of a good pronunciation

P MEYK POS K SEY LAN FAY.
(complement) make possible (subj) speak language foreign
to make communication in a foreign language possible.

IS K POS P SI PLEYS TIS K YU N SON
exist (subj) possibility (complement) see {place this = here} (subj) you (obj) sound
perhaps you encounter sounds here

KA LEN XON NO K YU AK.
(opening bracket) learn already not (subj) you (closing bracket)
which don't represent those you have already learned.

PAT KEP MET K YU LA!
but happy (indifferent degree) (subj) you (exclamation)
But don't worry!

LAYS K LAN LOK
reason (subj) {language local = dialect}
This is because of the dialects

KA EF K LAN OL AK.
(opening bracket) have (subj) language all (closing bracket)
that each language has.

KU MAS T TAYM OL K LIS
{good more = better} (time/space) {time all = always} (subj) hear
It is always favourable to hear

KA SEY K MAN KA LEN T KIT N LAN TIS AK AK
(opening bracket) speak (subj) person (opening bracket) learn (time/space) child (obj) language this (closing bracket) (closing bracket)
a native person speak,

LYAT K AY MA?
correct (subj) we (question)
isn't it? ("Are we right?")

KOP K AY
hope (subj) we
We hope

P TIK K YU
(complement) think (subj) you
you find

P POS YUS PU K XEKX TIS T LEN YU.
(complement) {possible use = useful} very (subj) project this (time/space) learn yours
this project useful in your learning.

SI N YU LA!
see (obj) you (exclamation)
Goodbye! ("See you!")


What do you guys think about that?

anne2

Postby anne2 » 2003-02-21, 7:32

Saaropean wrote:What do you guys think about that?


It still looks like chinese (or asian languages) to me.

I can feel that theres an invisible thin line connecting you and asia together. :D

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Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-21, 9:20

Anne wrote:I can feel that theres an invisible thin line connecting you and asia together. :D

LOL, well there is a reason why I'm learning Chinese (BTW: The exam yesterday was incredibly easy), but the grammar of LAN SIMP has one explanation: It is simple. Isolating languages (such as Chinese) are easier than inflecting ones (such as the Indo-European ones). :)
I remember a discussion in the old forum, where Mark (yes, he did contribute useful stuff sometimes) criticized Esperanto, because it had inflections like Indo-European languages, while many Asian languages can live without...

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Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-21, 19:31

After having dealt with anaphoric binding for almost half a semester, I couldn't resist thinking about that in my conlang...

To explain what I'm talking about, let me show you two simple English sentences using 3rd person pronouns:
- John saw himself means John saw John.
- John saw him means John saw someone mentioned in an earlier sentence
"Anaphoric binding" is the theory that tells you what him and himself can refer to. This is more complex in Norwegian.

To cut a long story short, let me show you what I invented for LAN SIMP. I'm waiting for your comments. Does this sound natural? Is it too complicated? Am I nuts? Well, I know I am... :wink: :lol:

LAN SIMP does not distinguish gender or number, there is only one pronoun for the 1st person (AY), one for 2nd person (YU) and two for the 3rd person (XI and TA).
XI is used to refer to something mentioned within the same constituent (subject, object or space-time specifier). For example if the subject is "Mary and her sister", the personal pronoun her refers to something within the subject (namely Mary).
TA is used to refer to a preceding constituent (subject, object or space-time specifier) that might be in a previous sentence. Of course the most recently mentioned 3rd person thing is taken.

Look at the examples to understand the difference between XI and TA. * and ² mark the "coindexation" between XI/TA and their antecedents (i.e. what they refer to).

KIF K TXON [T KO MELI]* N PUK TA*.
give (subj) John (obl) direction Mary (obj) book TA
John gives Mary* her* book.

KIF [K TXON]* N PUK TA* T KO MELI.
give (subj) John (obj) book TA direction Mary
John* gives Mary his* book.

SI K AY N TXON* EN ELM XI*.
see (subj) me (obj) John and sister XI
I see John* and his* sister.

SI [K TXON]* N ELM TA*.
see (subj) John (obj) sister TA
John* sees his* sister.

SI K TXON N MELI* EN ELM XI*.
see (subj) John (obj) Mary and sister XI
John sees Mary* and her* sister.

SI [K TXON]* N MELI EN ELM TA*.
see (subj) John (obj) Mary and sister XI
John* sees Mary and his* sister.

SI K AY [N TXON]*. FLEN AY K TA*.
see (subj) me (obj) John. friend me (subj) TA
I see John*. He* is my friend.

SI K AY [N TXON EN MELI]*. FLEN AY K TA*.
see (subj) me (obj) John and Mary. friend me (subj) TA
I see [John and Mary]*. They* are my friends.

SI K AY N TXON. FLEN AY K MELI* EN ELM XI*.
see (subj) me (obj) John. friend me (subj) Mary and sister XI
I see John. Mary* and her* sister are my friends.

SI K AY [N TXON]*. FLEN AY K MELI EN ELM TA*.
see (subj) me (obj) John. friend me (subj) Mary and sister TA
I see John*. Mary and his sister are my friends.

ATS [K TXON]* N AY P SEY (N TA*)² T KO TA².
ask (subj) John (obj) me (comp) say (obj) TA (obl) direction TA
John* asked us to talk to him* about himself*.

ATS [K TXON]* N AY P SEY [N TA* EN MELI]² TO KO TA².
ask (subj) John (obj) me (comp) say (obj) TA and Mary (obl) direction TA
John* asked us to talk about [him* and Mary]² to themselves².


The second-last example was taken from my Grammar Theory exam yesterday:
Martin* ba oss snakke til ham* om ham selv*. :)

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Postby Emandir » 2003-02-21, 20:44

Wow! And Luis dare say you're not a genius! :lol:

I love your langage and I'm ready to learn it before any other!
As I've said previoulsy, when I "discoverd" Chinese, I wondered why nobody ever used it as a basis for an IAL (International Auxiliary Language, thas is languages such as Esperanto), but I didn't want to do it myself! (Too lazy, maybe :wink: )

I've just a remark, about phonetics:
Dear Rolf, you speak an indo-european language and, worse! you're a German speaker, so you're used with clusters and especially weird ones (all those TSH, PF, KSH, SHTSH, I can't mention all)!
But I think that's not a good idea... Couldn't you avoid them?
I'm not speaking of TXON, which, being a 'foreign' name has (in my opinion) to look like the original (though in Chinese you can find things like Ta Wei for David!) but about, e.g., XEKX KLAP or SLON...
And how can you pronounce KIF K TXON ???

These considerations excepted, I can just encourage you to continue :
Give us (me?) more !
XAN LUK
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Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-21, 22:54

Emandir wrote:I love your langage and I'm ready to learn it before any other!
As I've said previoulsy, when I "discoverd" Chinese, I wondered why nobody ever used it as a basis for an IAL (International Auxiliary Language, thas is languages such as Esperanto), but I didn't want to do it myself! (Too lazy, maybe :wink: )

Oh cool, I'm working on the description... :)

Emandir wrote:I've just a remark, about phonetics:
Dear Rolf, you speak an indo-european language and, worse! you're a German speaker, so you're used with clusters and especially weird ones (all those TSH, PF, KSH, SHTSH, I can't mention all)!
But I think that's not a good idea... Couldn't you avoid them?

LOL - Yes you're right, that's why restricted it to the following clusters:
- word-initial: FL, KL, PL, SF, SK, SL, SM, SN, SP, ST, TS, TX, XF, XK, XL, XM, XN, XP, XT
- word-final: FS, FX, KS, KX, LF, LK, LM, LN, LP, LS, LT, LX, MP, MS, MX, NS, NT, NX, PS, PX, TS, TX

I know that's still hard to pronounce for Asians...
But I only use 5 vowels (plus some diphthongs, but I don't allow them with consonant clusters) without tones and just 9 basic consonants (F, K, L, M, N, P, S, T, X). If I didn't allow consonant clusters at all, the possible number of syllables would be terribly small, and I would have to use bisyllabic instead of monosyllabic basic words, like in the MediaGlyphs Project. I wanted to avoid that.

Emandir wrote:I'm not speaking of TXON, which, being a 'foreign' name has (in my opinion) to look like the original (though in Chinese you can find things like Ta Wei for David!) but about, e.g., XEKX KLAP or SLON...
And how can you pronounce KIF K TXON ???

Did I forget to mention that? Sorry. The particles K, N, P and T are pronounced with a schwa at the end. So K sounds like French "que" and T like French "te" as in la vase que je te donne.

Emandir wrote:These considerations excepted, I can just encourage you to continue :
Give us (me?) more !
XAN LUK

Okay, I'm working on that. :D

Here are all sentences I had to analyze in my linguistics exam yesterday:

PEKT KO FUT N MELI K TXON.
expect {go foot = walk} (obj) Mary (subj) John
Mary, John expected to walk.

PEKT K TXON P KO FUT K MELI.
expect (subj) John (comp) go foot (subj) Mary
Mary, John expected to walk.

MEYK KEP N MELI P FIN N METEL KOLTU T ATINA.
make happy (obj) Mary (comp) win (obj) medal gold (obl) Αθήνα
Winning the gold medal in Athens delighted Mary.

ATS K MALTIN N AY P SEY N TA T KO TA.
ask (subj) Martin (obj) me (comp) say (obj) he (obl) direction he
Martin ba oss snakke til ham om ham selv.
Martin asked us to talk to him about himself.

SEY K PITEL N MELI T KO TA.
sey (subj) Peter (obj) Mary (obl) direction she
Peter talked about Mary to herself [ungrammatical in English]

KEN K MAN POLTIK P IS SEL N PIKS TA.
know (subj) man political (comp) exist sale (obj) picture they
The politicians knew that pictures of themselves were on sale.

FONT PEK K TA T PYOL FLAYL TET.
want return (subj) they (obl) {period flower that = next spring}
Zurückkehren wollen sie im nächsten Frühjahr.
They want to come back next spring.

KEN K AY P KIF K YU N PUK T KO KIM.
know (subj) me (comp) give (subj) you (obj) book (obl) direction Kim
Books, I know you gave Kim.

KIF K MELI N MEYL T KO AY.
give (subj) Mary (obj) letter (obl) direction me
Mary sent me a letter.

SIMP NO K TA P PLEY T VAYLIN N SNATA TIS.
simple not (subj) she (comp) play (obl) violin (obj) sonata this
The sonata is tough for her to play on the violin.

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My comments

Postby ekalin » 2003-02-22, 11:52

I don't have many comments on that, since I was too lazy to take the time to fully analize the sample sentences. :-)

But I'd be willing to follow the SIMP LAN course in the Virtual School of Languages, if there is one. Maybe the language itself is not much useful, but it will probably help if some day I decide to learn an asian language (which I intend to do).

And why do you always write it with CAPITALS? If you do not want upper and lower case letters, it is better to write all in lowercaps.

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Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-22, 13:29

ekalin wrote:I don't have many comments on that, since I was too lazy to take the time to fully analize the sample sentences. :-)

Doesn't matter, I changed it anyway. :P
Actually the grammar is still the same, but after Emandir's criticism of consonant clusters, I changed the whole vocabulary...

ekalin wrote:But I'd be willing to follow the SIMP LAN course in the Virtual School of Languages, if there is one. Maybe the language itself is not much useful, but it will probably help if some day I decide to learn an asian language (which I intend to do).

Do you really think so? Actually the only similarity between Chinese and LA KEN (which is the successor LAN SIMP, which is the successor of Simp-Lan :wink:) is the complete lack of morphology. Verbs are not conjugated and there are no gender, number and case distinctions.
It also has a similarity with Japanese: I use particles to mark what is the subject or object of a sentence.

ekalin wrote:And why do you always write it with CAPITALS? If you do not want upper and lower case letters, it is better to write all in lowercaps.

Really? I thought capitals were easier to distinguish...
And by using only capitals, I prevent the language from having a handwriting that looks quite different from the way it is printed (which usually happens for languages with the Latin or Cyrillic alphabet). That makes it even simpler... :P

Saaropean wrote:
Emandir wrote:I've just a remark, about phonetics:
Dear Rolf, you speak an indo-european language and, worse! you're a German speaker, so you're used with clusters and especially weird ones (all those TSH, PF, KSH, SHTSH, I can't mention all)!
But I think that's not a good idea... Couldn't you avoid them?

LOL - Yes you're right, that's why restricted it to the following clusters:
- word-initial: FL, KL, PL, SF, SK, SL, SM, SN, SP, ST, TS, TX, XF, XK, XL, XM, XN, XP, XT
- word-final: FS, FX, KS, KX, LF, LK, LM, LN, LP, LS, LT, LX, MP, MS, MX, NS, NT, NX, PS, PX, TS, TX

I've changed that. Consonant clusters are no longer allowed, and diphthongs are abolished, because Y is considered as a proper consonant now. This gives me a maximal number of 550 monosyllabic words, so only the most basic words are monosyllabic. The other ones are either bisyllabic (starting with a vowel to distinguish them from the monosyllabic ones!) or compound.
Another radical change: The vocabulary is no longer derived from English. Instead, I wrote a little C program that gives me random consonant - vowel - (consonant) syllables for the 5 vowels A, E, I, O, U and the 10 consonants F, K, L, M, N, P, S, T, X, Y.

Actually my bisyllabic words do have consonant clusters, but no one prevents you from pronouncing a schwa in between, so even Italians and Chinese can learn LA KEN. :lol:
Besides, it's up to you to pronounce the vowels long or short, or to voice the consonants. The syllable PET can be pronounced as bed, bet, ped or pet...

You can find a description of LA KEN at
http://iquebec.ifrance.com/rolf1/personal/inventions/languages/la-ken/index.html
The sample texts are still missing, and I haven't translated the documentation yet. But there's a 3801 words LA KEN - English dictionary. :)

I would also like to know what you think about the way numbers work. It follows the principle "general thing precedes its specifier". Here are a few examples:

10 FEX YU ("ten one")
12 FEX YU SIP ("ten one two")
203 LO SIP YOL ("thousand two three")
36,000 LU FEX YOL YOS ("thousand ten three six")
30,006 LU FEX YOL YAP YOS ("thousand ten three zero six")
10,000,001 ANYU FEX YU YAP YU ("million ten one zero one")
10,001,000 ANYU FEX YU LU YU ("million ten one thousand one")
11,000,000 ANYU FEX YU YU ("million ten one one")
11,000,001 ANYU FEX YU YU YU ("million ten one one one")
12,030,004 ANYU FEX YU SIP LU FEX YOL YAP YEP ("million ten one two thousand ten three zero four")

As you can see, I use the decimal system with the (European) habit to group numbers by thousands and millions rather than tens of thousands and hundreds of millions as in Chinese. That's just because so many people are used to 1,234,567 instead of 123,4567 or even 455,3207 (octal)... :wink:

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Postby ekalin » 2003-02-22, 13:55

Saaropean wrote:
ekalin wrote:But I'd be willing to follow the SIMP LAN course in the Virtual School of Languages, if there is one. Maybe the language itself is not much useful, but it will probably help if some day I decide to learn an asian language (which I intend to do).

Do you really think so? Actually the only similarity between Chinese and LA KEN (which is the successor LAN SIMP, which is the successor of Simp-Lan :wink:) is the complete lack of morphology. Verbs are not conjugated and there are no gender, number and case distinctions.
It also has a similarity with Japanese: I use particles to mark what is the subject or object of a sentence.


I can't judge... But Anne said it looked like an asian language, even if you tried not to do that. :-)

Saaropean wrote:
ekalin wrote:And why do you always write it with CAPITALS? If you do not want upper and lower case letters, it is better to write all in lowercaps.

Really? I thought capitals were easier to distinguish...


It's far easier to read lower caps than upper caps.

Saaropean wrote:And by using only capitals, I prevent the language from having a handwriting that looks quite different from the way it is printed (which usually happens for languages with the Latin or Cyrillic alphabet). That makes it even simpler... :P


That depends on how you write. There are handwritten forms for the capitals that are quite different.

Saaropean wrote:Another radical change: The vocabulary is no longer derived from English. Instead, I wrote a little C program that gives me random consonant - vowel - (consonant) syllables for the 5 vowels A, E, I, O, U and the 10 consonants F, K, L, M, N, P, S, T, X, Y.


Random words is THE way to make the language totally alien and difficult to learn.

Saaropean wrote:Besides, it's up to you to pronounce the vowels long or short, or to voice the consonants. The syllable PET can be pronounced as bed, bet, ped or pet...


Bad thing, I guess. Before vowels, the distinction voiced/unvoiced is quite clear (and not only for the consonants we are used to).

Saaropean wrote:I would also like to know what you think about the way numbers work. It follows the principle "general thing precedes its specifier". Here are a few examples:


I didn't like it. In this respect, the Esperanto system is very efficient and simple.

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Consonant clusters

Postby ekalin » 2003-02-22, 14:01

BTW, looking through the dictionary, I've seen you have no solved the problem of consonant clusters. Indeed, you made it worse! :shock: How does one pronounce "SX" as in "OSXAM"? The only way is making a pause or pronouncing as "OXAM".

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Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-22, 14:08

ekalin wrote:Random words is THE way to make the language totally alien and difficult to learn.

Okay, it's more difficult compared to those words more or less derived from English, but that makes it neutral, doesn't it?
And the syllable structure is so simple that it won't be too hard...

ekalin wrote:
Saaropean wrote:Besides, it's up to you to pronounce the vowels long or short, or to voice the consonants. The syllable PET can be pronounced as bed, bet, ped or pet...

Bad thing, I guess. Before vowels, the distinction voiced/unvoiced is quite clear (and not only for the consonants we are used to).

Why is that a bad thing? I don't want to distinguish between voiced and voiceless consonants to make the language simpler.
What about the following idea: We say the plosives should be pronounced voiceless and not aspirated, but if people "have an accent" because they are only used to aspirated or voiced consonants, this is acceptable, too. :?:

ekalin wrote:
Saaropean wrote:I would also like to know what you think about the way numbers work. It follows the principle "general thing precedes its specifier". Here are a few examples:

I didn't like it. In this respect, the Esperanto system is very efficient and simple.

In Esperanto, numbers work like in Chinese, i.e. more regular than in Indo-European languages, but following the same principles.
But I wanted to maintain a strict adjective after noun word order (apart from the fact that adjectives and nouns are actually verbs :roll:), that's why I though "20" should be "ten twice" rather than "two tens".

ekalin wrote:BTW, looking through the dictionary, I've seen you have no solved the problem of consonant clusters. Indeed, you made it worse! :shock: How does one pronounce "SX" as in "OSXAM"? The only way is making a pause or pronouncing as "OXAM".

Saaropean wrote:Actually my bisyllabic words do have consonant clusters, but no one prevents you from pronouncing a schwa in between, so even Italians and Chinese can learn LA KEN. :lol:

OSXAM should be pronounced /"OsSam/. If you have a problem with that, you can make a pause or insert a schwa between S or X.
Maybe this is the way to pronounce bisyllabic words: first syllable + schwa + second syllable, although the schwa is not written, because it is obsolete. That's what I meant by "even Italians and Chinese can learn LA KEN". :wink:
Pronouncing OXAM /"OSam/ or /"Osam/ is definitely wrong.

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Postby ekalin » 2003-02-22, 14:18

Saaropean wrote:
ekalin wrote:Random words is THE way to make the language totally alien and difficult to learn.

Okay, it's more difficult compared to those words more or less derived from English, but that makes it neutral, doesn't it?
And the syllable structure is so simple that it won't be too hard...


It is neutral. But if there isn't a single word similar, it is much harder to learn vocabulary. Especially for reading.

Saaropen wrote:
ekalin wrote:Bad thing, I guess. Before vowels, the distinction voiced/unvoiced is quite clear (and not only for the consonants we are used to).

Why is that a bad thing? I don't want to distinguish between voiced and voiceless consonants to make the language simpler.


I may have some trouble distinguishing, say, a voiced and a voiceless "l". Tough I never heard I voiceless "l" (there isn't even a special IPA sign for it), it must be different. But I'm so used to the different between "p" and "b" or "t" and "d", that to me "bed" and "pet" are so different that I don't think I could immediately recognize the latter as equivalent to the former.

Saaropean wrote:What about the following idea: We say the plosives should be pronounced voiceless and not aspirated, but if people "have an accent" because they are only used to aspirated or voiced consonants, this is acceptable, too. :?:


This is better. And the effort that people will make to pronounce voiceless unaspirated consonants may not make them totally voiceless and unaspirated, but will make it sound closer to the "model".

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Saaropean
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phoneme suggestions

Postby Saaropean » 2003-02-23, 8:14

I propose the following phoneme schemata:

1) LA IPE IPOTE
word -> mono | bi | tri
mono -> cons vow
bi -> vow mono
tri -> vow cons bi

50 monosyllabic words
250 bisyllabic words
12,500 trisyllabic words


2) SOX UTAY EFIKO
word -> mono | bi | tri
mono -> cons vow (fin)
bi -> vow mono
tri -> vow cons bi

400 monosyllabic words
2,000 bisyllabic words
100,000 trisyllabic words


3) FAL EKMIN:
word -> mono | bi
mono -> cons vow (cons)
bi -> vow (cons) mono

550 monosyllabic words
30,250 bisyllabic words


4) LUYX EPA UYUTUYL
word -> mono | bi | tri
mono -> cons vowdiph (fin-Y)
bi -> vow mono
tri -> vowdiph cons-Y bi

720 monosyllabic words
3,600 bisyllabic words
324,000 trisyllabic words


with:

vow -> A | E | I | O | U
vowdiph -> vow | AY | EY | OY | UY
fin-Y -> F | L | M | N | S | X
fin -> fin-Y | Y
cons-Y -> fin-Y | P | T | K
cons -> fin | P | T | K

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Postby Emandir » 2003-02-25, 21:26

I've thought hard about that damned stuff and here what I came to.
There's only one alternative:
-If you want short words, you've got to have more phonemes.
-If you want few phonemes, you've got to have long words.

Jean-Luc
Language is the best way men have found to misunderstand each other. Lycodoxos

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Saaropean
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Fimo Yos

Postby Saaropean » 2003-03-05, 16:11

I adapted the following syllable structure:
- monosyllabic words: consonant - vowel - (final consonant)
- bisyllabic words: (consonant) - vowel - consonant - vowel - (final consonant)

Stops (P, T, K) are not allowed as final consonants. To avoid confusion with M, N is not allowed in a final position either.
Furthermore, syllables starting with YI or ending with IY are not allowed. A syllable starting with Y must not end with Y.
It is guaranteed that no bisyllabic word can be interpreted as a compound of two monosyllabic words.

This gives a max. possible number of 350 monosyllabic as well as less than 20,000 bisyllabic words.

Of course I reinvented every single word. :wink: That's why the language is now no longer called LA KEN (or Lan Simp or Simp-Lan), but Fimo Yos. "fimo" means language and "yos" means easy/simple.

The grammar remains mostly unchanged. I only added one feature I liked about Llis: Instead of "John and Mary", you say "and John and Mary" (nu Xom nu Meli), which avoids ambiguities. The same applies to "John or Mary", which becomes "or John or Mary" (fe Xom fe Meli).

Here's the full description: http://iquebec.ifrance.com/rolf1/personal/inventions/languages/fimo-yos/

And this is the Sonidos del Mundo text in Fimo Yos:
Tiyu ki femox so!
Tiyu xu max ki mef pi alof Unilam yel. Enol kapef alix xu alof. Fele xu alof ki tulas kapef suf kapax noy mi, loy amoy sum xaf xu mef yol. Yox ne po fetim ki fimo lal kapef pi lof nis pimu fimo, ne li tomuf fita xu max, ne suxal xu tamex sis fimo pes, ne po sa xu sis fimo amul.
Sa ne fetim tey xaf xu mef ki kapef, loy pimu kul mi xu mef yol. Soy muni pa xu mef so! Li xu fimo emix, loy na xu fimo lal yol. Pes fif pi sum lal xu amoy, ne sis xu nis, loy pimu pi lexis ki fimo xaf yol. Fokof xu max la?
Semux xu max ne nukis xu mef ne sa pamul me xu alof xaf pi pimu mef.
Fetim ki mef so!


As you can see, I got rid of the capitals. The system I use now follows the convention most languages use: the first word in a sentence is written in upper case, and so are common names.


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