Europan

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Zé do Rock
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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-04, 2:38

Naava wrote:The languages related to Finnish and spoken somewhat near the areas where Finnish is spoken:

- Estonian
- Meänkieli
- Kven
- Inari Sami
- Skolt Sami
- Kildin Sami
- Northern Sami
- Lule Sami
- Karelian
- Veps
- Võro

This doesn't even include all of the languages there are.
Many of these are spoken within Finland or right next to the border. I admit Võro is a bit farther away, but the only language spoken between Finnish and Võro (geographically speaking, that is) is Estonian.

Whereas the Indo-European languages spoken near the areas where Finnish is spoken are

- Norwegian
- Swedish
- Russian

If there is some minority language I don't know of, please add to the list.

I know you don't count non-national languages, but you still can't say Finnish is an isolated language. It sounds like you're erasing thousands of speakers of languages that don't follow the one language, one nation -idea.


(koy)i varu strādāt tikai ar nacionale valodam. ja lev uns 5 a 20 minutos calcular cual é la palavra mais internacionale só com las linguas nacionais, if i tivesse ki considerar las centenas línguas europeias, multi de las ni tendo um dicionario online, levaria dias... sem falar do facto ke i teria que decidir o ki vali como lingua separed e o ki vali como dialecto, ki é como la cuestiao do sexo af el angeles. e de dise standpunt hat finnish nur a gemainsamen vocabular mit eestnish... evidentli not considring la loanwords...

(en)i can only work with national languages. it takes alredy 5 to 20 minutes to calculate wich is the most international word among the national languages, if i had to considder the hundreds of europan languages, many of them not eeven having a dictionary online, it would take days... not to mention the fact that i'd hav to decide wat is a seprated language and wat is a dialect, wich is like the question about the sex of the angels. and from this point of vew finnish just has a common vocabbulary with estonian... not counting of corse the lonewords...

wile in the finno-ugric languages and in the turk languages it is a central aspect of the language.

Except that this central aspect of the language is lacking in a handful of Finno-Ugric languages: all the 9 Sami languages, Permic and Estonian. :P
I still don't know what your point is, but it sounds awfully lot like you're implying that having one common feature between Altaic languages and Finno-Ugric languages makes them related.[/quote]

(koy)bon, il y a auci le fait que cettes langues on beaucoup d'umlauts... claro que eso no es una prueba, pero dos indícios que pueden sugerir una conexión, que es el motivo por lo cual yo lanzé la pregunta...

(en)wel, thare is also the fact that thees languages hav lots of umlauts... of course this isnt a proof, but 2 clues that could suggest a connection, wich is the reeson wy i threw the question in the forum...


now we'r at the letter L, so we can cut the K and spel 'noen'.

Oh, ok, I didn't know the reform wasn't completed yet.


(koy)reforma buvo baigta preš keletą metų, ji ha 10 000 dažniausių žodžių sąrašą. o ke i keria dizer é ke i tou introduzing la reforma graduali.

(en)the reform was compleeted a few yeers ago, it has a list of the 10 000 most freequent words. wat I wanted to say is that i'm introducing the reform graddualy.

short a, short e, short i, short o, short u, long a, long e, long i, long o, long u.

I saw you promised to show the spelling rules in another topic, so I'll go check them there. Anyway, I'd like to see what exactly you mean when you say short a, e, i etc.[/quote]

[flag]koy[flag]kurzes A is das A in cat, kurzes E das E in bed, kurzes I das I in bit, kurzes O das O in lot, kurzes U das U in cut. long A is the A in male, long E is the E in been, long I the I in bite, long O the O in bote, long U the U in butiful (the first one...). les autres vocales ne sont pas changees, sauf si oni peut couper alg. y las palabras que escribí ya están perfectas.

(en)short A is the A in cat, short E the E in bed, short I the I in bit, short O the O in lot, short U the U in cut. long A is the A in male, long E is the E in been, long I the I in bite, long O the O in bote, long U the U in butiful (the first one). other vowels arnt changed, unless we can cut something. and the words i gave as example ar alredy perfect.

atavistic meens that it is in your blood, in your DNA, since many generations.



(koy)igen - miert?

(en)yes - wy?

Even with your definition, 'atavistic hospitality' doesn't make any sense. Hospitality is about cultural norms, not genes or blood. You need to learn it from someone else, you're not born with it. Besides, you can't compare cultures and decide which one is more hospitable than the other; it all depends on what you expect people to do or say in certain situations and so it's a very subjective concept. Also, I have no idea how this has anything to do with languages.


(koy)im teorie podia ser cultural, mas in el end aind ai um longo caminho pra andar, pra ficar sabendo cuant informaciao das geracioes passee a genti leva nos nashe genes. natürali das ganze is subjectiv, aber es war halt so, dass i fil gastfreundshaft in filen landern erlebt ha, aba nur in solchen landern gab es gastgeber die geweint han, als i ging, leute ki mig al ir aincäufe shenke han.

(en)in theory it mite be cultural, but after all we hav a long way to go to know how much information from past generations we carry in our genes. of course the whole thing is subjectiv, but i can just say, i expeerienced hospitality in many countries, but only in thees countries thare wer hosts who cried wen i left, or peeple who gave me all the stuf they had baut in the supermarket.


of course we could make a reform for all englishe dialects and accents, for the english of liverpool, of glasgow, of dublin, of belize, jamaica, nigeria, malawi, papua new guinea, cook islands, etc etc etc. but nobody wants that

I can see why you wouldn't include dialects in your spelling reform, but why did you choose AmE and BrE but not Australian English? Imo it'd make more sense to take two phonologically somewhat similar standard varieties rather than having AmE and BrE in the same spelling system. Why not AmE+Canadian spelling reform? Or if you want to include as many varieties as possible, why not include Australian English?


(koy)i travelled thru 40 or 50 countries ware english was the oficial language or one of them, and i'v never herd that somebody in africa or in asia tries to speak the best australian inglish. ce quon aprends dans lecol ist british inglish, ce quil parlent dans la tele cest british inglish. excepto, claro, en nordamerica. коgа луgето оdат на iнgliскi kурс, тiе треbа dа оdlучат dаli саkаат dа науchат bрiтансki ili амерikансki iнglicki. i nunc ouvi falar af australian o scoceis inglishe bining oferee, exepto talvez in australia ou in scocia, e i ni sab if in dises paísis. e wie i ja ha sei, la mega majoritee der personis, sain si in europa, america or asia or ozeania wolen nit, dass ai 2, geshwaige denn 100 inglishe varianten. wi hav cuait a fiw australians in TESS, e none de them is pliding dat australian inglish bi consideree, wi ali spik abaut cort X or long Y and it doesnt matter de wer pople come e how exactli they produca dat sound, wi just want a strimlinee wei to spel dat sound.

(en)i traveld thru 40 or 50 countries ware english was the oficial language or one of them, and i'v never herd that somebody in africa or in asia tries to speek the best australian inglish. wat you lern in scool is british inglish, wat they speek on TV is british inglish. except, of course, in nordamerica. wen they want to start an inglishe course, they hav to decide wether they want to lern british or american inglish. i'v never herd of australian or scottish inglishe being offerd, except maybe in australia or in scotland, and i dont eeven know if in thees countries. and as i had sed, the grate majority of the peeple, no matter wether in europa, america, asia or oceania, dont want that the world has 2, let alone 100 difrent inglishe variants. we hav quite a few australians in TESS, and none of them is pleeding that australian inglish be considderd, we all speek about short X or long Y and it doesnt matter from ware peeple come and how exactly they produce that sound, we just want a streemlined way to spel that sound.


you'd reed in a book the word 'leet', you wouldnt no wat it meens, then you'd hav to find out the authors nationality, and - aaaahh, he's indian, so you'd chek the indian inglishe dictionary to find out that 'leet' meens 'late'.

Isn't this the exact reason why spelling reforms have been unsuccesful? :)


(koy)ist au moins un argument frecuentlik utilisee. i creo ke el problem is mas political. fil-pajjiżi bl-ilsien Ingliż m'hemm l-ebda corp li għandu s-setgħa li jagħmel reform ortografik, e meme jekk kien hemm, jeħtieġ li jiltaqgħu u jaqblu b'xi mod, għexieren minnhom...

(en)it is at leest an offen used argument. in the countries with inglishe language thare is no boddy that has the power to make an orthographic reform, and eeven if thare was, they would need to get together and agree somehow, dozens of them...

and usualy all commonwelth countries accept that the "rite accent" is the soudern british accent

Source, please.[/quote]

(koy)fora i, ki viajei através 38 de les, no ai nenhum. aba wi i ja ha sei, jeda der mit mir sprak e standard inglishe connte, hat es getan, e dises standard inglishe war das soudern british inglish, wail es el inglish waren ki dise lander colonisert han, nit neuseelandis o jamaikis or el iris.

(en)except for myself, who traveld thru 38 of them, i have none. but as i alredy sed, evrybody who talks to me and can speek standard inglish, does it, and this standard inglish is the soudern british inglish, becaus it was the inglis who colonized them, not new zeelandis or jamaikis or the iris.

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Vlürch
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Re: Europan

Postby Vlürch » 2018-02-04, 6:38

Zé do Rock wrote:wel, thare is also the fact that thees languages hav lots of umlauts...

Albanian uses Ë, Pinyin uses Ü and romanised Amharic uses Ä. They're also not technically called umlauts in languages other than German (I only learned that like a year or two ago myself, from this forum actually), but I don't know what the proper term is. Orthography may be the worst possible thing you could refer to as "proof" to demonstrate any given languages being related, since any language can be written using any writing system.

Anyway, Ural-Altaic languages as a genetically related family has been pretty much disproven by everyone over and over again. So, even though I'm one of those people who'd really like it to be true, clinging to it is pretty similar to clinging to the idea that the Earth is flat. As a sprachbund or some other kind of grouping through contact, though, is possible and likely.

It feels weird for me to say this, but you may want to discard all non-Indo-European languages if you want to come up with a "European language" that all Europeans can understand and learn easily. That way, you can use Proto-Indo-European as a base but dismiss all the Iranic, Indo-Aryan, etc. branches and instead "reconstruct" a Proto-European language that never existed but could have if "European languages" formed a branch within Indo-European languages. Armenian and Albanian may cause some problems, but you could easily figure out a way to include them. Vocabulary for modern technologies and whatnot could then be borrowed from English or whatever.

Just something to consider: it might be a good idea to limit the European conlang to so-called Euroversals, making it as close to a literal Standard Average European as you could.

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-04, 16:29

Vlürch wrote:
Zé do Rock wrote:wel, thare is also the fact that thees languages hav lots of umlauts...

Albanian uses Ë, Pinyin uses Ü and romanised Amharic uses Ä. They're also not technically called umlauts in languages other than German (I only learned that like a year or two ago myself, from this forum actually), but I don't know what the proper term is. Orthography may be the worst possible thing you could refer to as "proof" to demonstrate any given languages being related, since any language can be written using any writing system.


je parlais pas des umlauts écrits, je parlais dee sons, /ö/ ee /y/. claro que ay otras lenguas que tienen eses sonidos, pero no de una manera tan extensiva, por lo menos no que yo sepa.

i wasnt talking about written umlauts, i was talking about the sounds /ö/ and /y/. of corse thare ar other languages that hav thees sounds, but not in such an extensiv way, at leest not that i know.

Vlürch wrote:Anyway, Ural-Altaic languages as a genetically related family has been pretty much disproven by everyone over and over again. So, even though I'm one of those people who'd really like it to be true, clinging to it is pretty similar to clinging to the idea that the Earth is flat. As a sprachbund or some other kind of grouping through contact, though, is possible and likely.


(pt)[flag]de[flag](fr)(es)refutado por todo mundo? nao por mim... na ja, ich bin kein linguist, also weiss ich nich was für etablirte warheiten in der welt der linguisten herrschen... de toute fasson, je ne crois pas toujours aux veritee établis, cétait auci une veritee établi ke la terr est plate, ee baucoup dee 'veritee' ki sont établi aujourdui le seront pas demin. pero solo ace sentido objetar a verdades establecidas cuando se tiene una cantidad substancial de argumentos, lo que no es mi caso. mas eu nao me aferro a essa teoria, eu tamém nao fiz nenhuma afirmassao, só uma pergunta.

(en)disproven by evryone? not by me, tho... wel, i'm not a linguist, so i dont no wich establishd trueths thare ar in the world of linguists... ennyway i dont always beleev in establishd trueths, after all it was alredy an establishd trueth that the erth is flat, and menny trueths of today wont be the trueth tomorrow. but it only makes sense to disagree with establishd trueths wen you hav a substantial quantity of arguments or at leest a few very good arguments, wich is not the case heer. i'm not clinging to this theory, i didnt make enny statement, just a question.

Vlürch wrote:It feels weird for me to say this, but you may want to discard all non-Indo-European languages if you want to come up with a "European language" that all Europeans can understand and learn easily. That way, you can use Proto-Indo-European as a base but dismiss all the Iranic, Indo-Aryan, etc. branches and instead "reconstruct" a Proto-European language that never existed but could have if "European languages" formed a branch within Indo-European languages. Armenian and Albanian may cause some problems, but you could easily figure out a way to include them. Vocabulary for modern technologies and whatnot could then be borrowed from English or whatever.

Just something to consider: it might be a good idea to limit the European conlang to so-called Euroversals, making it as close to a literal Standard Average European as you could.


(de)(fr)(es)(pt)ich nem mal an, ma findet zimlich alle euroversals in europan. jexclu pas lee langues non-indoeuropanes del europan - au moins pas en téorie. pero en la práctica es la masa de lenguas que determina las palabras, y sin alianzas las palabras tienen muy pocas chances de ser elegidas -
aunque como en un congreso los partidos pequenos puedan ser decisivos en la elección del primero-ministro. mais poderia acontecer, si a palavra é diferent im todas línguas européias, i no inglish ela tem uma ortografia bem irregular i 8 letra incuanto ki no finlandeis i no estoniano só tem 3 letras... ich verstee nur nich wie du das meinst mit dem proto-indoeuropan - pas baucoup de jens comprenderaient un proto-europan aujourdui?

(en)i guess yu find all so-calld euroversals in europan. i dont discard non-indoeuropan languages from europan - at leest not in theory. but in practice it is the mass that determins the words, and without aliances the words hav little chance to be elected - eeven if as in a parlament the small parties can be decisiv in the election of a prime-minister. but it could happen, for instance wen the word is difrent in evry europan language, and in inglish it has an ireggular spelling and 8 letters, wile in finnish and eestonian the word just hav 3 letters. i just dont understand wat yu meen with proto-europan - not menny peeple would understand a proto-indoeuropan nowadays?

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Re: Europan

Postby Dormouse559 » 2018-02-04, 18:24

Zé do Rock wrote:soudern
Why this spelling? "Southern" is pronounced /ˈsʌðə˞n/. And "south" is /ˈsaʊ̯θ/. Neither of them contains a /d/ sound, like your spelling suggests.

Zé do Rock wrote:becaus
At least in the usual orthography, final <s> is pronounced /s/ if it doesn't represent a grammatical suffix. So to me your spelling suggests final /s/, when the normal pronunciation ends in /z/.

Zé do Rock wrote:iris.
The iris?

Your practice of replacing all the demonyms is strange enough, but how do you choose the root to base them on? Sometimes it's the country name (portugali, new zeelandi), other times it's a root for a country (iri), and other times it's a root referring to a people (engli). How is this more regular?
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

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Re: Europan

Postby kevin » 2018-02-04, 22:45

Zé do Rock wrote:short A is the A in cat, short E the E in bed, short I the I in bit, short O the O in lot, short U the U in cut. long A is the A in male, long E is the E in been, long I the I in bite, long O the O in bote, long U the U in butiful (the first one). other vowels arnt changed, unless we can cut something. and the words i gave as example ar alredy perfect.

So you're proposing a new spelling system to make things more regular, but knowingly ignore like half of the vowel phonemes that English has and expect that the result will still be a considerable improvement? Isn't that a daring assumption, and another sign for a half-assed attempt? If we already modify the spelling of every other word, shouldn't it be possible to get something way more systematic?

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-06, 15:50

Dormouse559 wrote:Why this spelling? "Southern" is pronounced /ˈsʌðə˞n/. And "south" is /ˈsaʊ̯θ/. Neither of them contains a /d/ sound, like your spelling suggests.


(koy)la cardinale pointos ar este-weste-norde-sude, e they lose der laste vocal wen ai no fologare word ki starte con a consonant. alor la finale form ist 'sud' (sude franse, sud europa), et la rest ist inglish: sudern. mas i todavía had no llegado al O...

seveda dat ustreza non ingliškemu izgovorjavanju, e ni del HS. isso é el internacionalizacion de geografico nomes.

(en)the cardinal points ar este-weste-norde-sude, and they lose thare last vowel wen thare is no following word that begins with a vowel. so the final form is 'sud', and the rest is inglish: sudern. but i hadnt arrived at the O in that post...

of course this doesnt correspond to the english pronunciation, and it is not part of the HS. it is just part of the internationalization of geografical names.


Zé do Rock wrote:becaus
At least in the usual orthography, final <s> is pronounced /s/ if it doesn't represent a grammatical suffix. So to me your spelling suggests final /s/, when the normal pronunciation ends in /z/.[/quote]

(koy)prononcerst du 'as' as 'ass'? 'is' as 'iss'? 'was' com 'wass'? i cre no lo. tietenkin ai myös sanoja, jotka ende con S e joilla on /s/, mutt ai paljon enemmän sanoja, jotka ende co -se e ha /s/ kuin /z/, siksi me sanomme "hors" "huorille" e "horse" 'hevonen'. na veridee la finale -se é la form af inglishe de dizer ki ai um /s/ in el end, cuando dise son veni dopo uma vocal ki é no representee con uma único vocal scrita ou dopo una consonant: du canst no 'horss' scrib, du canst no 'decreass' scrib, das go contra la natur al el inglish ortografie. so wi mantene -se wen it representa /s/ e cut it to -s wen it representa /z/.

(en)do yu pronounce 'as' as 'ass'? 'is' as 'iss'? 'was' as 'wass'? i dont think so. of course, thar ar also words that end with S and hav /s/, but thare ar a lot mor words ending with -se that hav a S than a Z, wich is wy we spel 'hors' for 'whores' and 'horse' for 'horse'. would yu spel both as 'hors', eeven if they hav difrent pronunciations? in fact, final -se is the inglishe way to say that thare is a /s/ at the end of a word, wen this sound comes after a vowel that is not represented by a single vowel letter or after a consonant: yu cant spel 'horss', yu cant spel 'decreass', this is agenst the nature of english spelling. so we keep -se wen it represents /s/ and cut it wen it represents /z/.

(koy)et avant que tu critic el 'a S' au lieu de 'an S': ik utilizo el roman alfabet, mas el orden is un otro - por tipos de son - e la nombres también:

(en)and befor yu criticize 'a S' insted of 'an S': i use the roman alfabet, of course, but thare is another order - by class of sounds - and the names, too:

a /a/ e /e/ i /i/ o /o/ u /u/ y /jau/ w /wau/

b /ba/ d /de/ g /gi/ p /po/ t /tu/ c /kau/ k /kei/

j /ja/ v /ve/ z /zi/ f /fo/ s /su/

h /ha/ l /le/ m /mi/ n /no/ r /ru/

q /auk/, x /aux/

a-e-i-o-u-
ba-de-gi-po-tu-cau-kei
ja-ve-zi-fo-su
ha-le-mi-no-ru
auq, aux

so S is /su/, so yu dont say 'an ess', yu say 'a su'.

Dormouse559 wrote:The iris?

Your practice of replacing all the demonyms is strange enough, but how do you choose the root to base them on? Sometimes it's the country name (portugali, new zeelandi), other times it's a root for a country (iri), and other times it's a root referring to a people (engli). How is this more regular?


(koy)Şehrin st. louis nome hiç şikayet ettin mi? i supone ki no. aba st. louis is a hailiger, wai muss au la citi ha dise nom? or read dise paragraf i wrote abaut citi nomes in texas, dis is de mai firste book:

(en)hav yu ever complaned about the name of the city st. louis? i guess yu havnt. stil, st. louis is a saint, wy does the city hav to hav the same name? or reed this paragraf i wrote about town names in texas, this is from my first book:

Texas has simply evrything: if you'v got small shoes, drive to Bigfoot. If you'r in the womb and someone wont let you get out, try Birthright. If you'r a racist, take your pik, you can go to Black or to Blanco. If you'r tired, try Blanket or Goodnight. If your travlers cheks hav run out, chek out Cash or Dinero. Thirsty? Coke is it. If you'r bord, go to Impact or strate to Cut and Shoot. If you'r late, rush to Early. If evryone around you is speeking nothing but espaniol, go to English. If it's monday, try Friday. Feeling down or depressd, then get to Energy, Joy, Smily, or just Happy. Hungry? Oatmeal is wat you need. Gotta get out of the city? Then how about Pampa or Paradise? Maybe Tarzan is in the neiborhood. If your car brakes down on the rode, thares Tool, and then you make it to Mercedes, so you can vote for Reagan. But maybe you'r not sure and want to try Uncertain? Or far, far away, to Venus. But Venus is hot and you come bak to Earth. Earth is still too big a place, so you go bak to Sweet Home. But first to Telephone to let them know you'r coming. By Telegraph you find out that Unity has arrived at home. And you thaut Utopia is far off?!? Anyway thares still time for a hedline in the paper, since thares a town calld Fertile and another one calld Climax: FERTILE WOMAN DIES IN CLIMAX.

(koy)alors, si tu vole te pleindre sur la confusion de nomes propres et normale mots, tu vas havoir bocoup du travail... i meme veni del stado mas setentrional de brasil, e los abitis de dise stad ha la nome gauchos /ga'uS(u)/, o sea, ik un gaúcho - mas i soy no gaucho, no cauboi, como can bi???

(en)so if yu want to complane about the confusion of proper names and normal words, yu'l hav a hel of a job... i myself come from the sudernmost state in brazil, and the inhabbitants from this state ar calld gauchos /ga'uS/u)/, that meens that i'm a gaucho - but i'm not a gaucho, i'm not a cowboy!

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(koy)in прinцiп i bеру nome з gеоgраfіco nome, mа якщо gеоgраfіco nome похоdiть af el імеnі nароdу (як in deutshland, ireland, danmark, kazakhstan), dat nome nароdу є коренем. você considera mai sistema mais complikee ki o ki a gente tem aí? was is la logik in germany-german-german, france-french-frenchman, spain-spanish-spaniard, angola-angolan-angolan, canada-canadian-canadian, japan-japanese-japanese (guy?), iceland-icelandic-ice? (lander? icelandic? i talkd to an icelandic?) etc etc etc. ai plus dan dan a milion geografico nomes, e for al af them yu must lerne the adjectivo separeelik or serche somewhere, sometaimes it tas ages, wail in mai sistema yu dont hav to do noding but put the ending yu'v lernd - aldo ai a dozena speciale casos yu hav to lern extra.

si tu restes in dom e meibi tu visita 2 ou 3 visinale landes e meibi 2 ou 3 land dans un otre continent, ist non un problem. mas i ha voiagé a landes de los cuales la majorie ni meme sa ki los exist, e i scribí sobre los, e la mas tu lo fas, mas dificile se torn. Como мы nазываеm jыхароў Маршаlавых выспаў? e la pessonis das ilhas solomon? e la wonis der franciano region perigord? or la pople de la braziliano stato goiás? et i can dire "i talked to an american", mas i can no dir "i talked to an english", et i ni sas si i can dire "i talkd to a japanese" ou sil fo dire 'i talkd to a japanese man/guy/woman', et pour fare no faltes, i complementa co 'guy' ou 'man', et sa ist solo un des problemas...


(en)in principle, i take the names from the geografical name, but if the geografical name derives from the peeple's name, (as in deutshland, ireland, danmark, kazakhstan), then the peeple's name is the root. yu considder my sistem mor complicated than wat we hav? wats the logic in germany-german-german, france-french-frenchman, spain-spanish-spaniard, angola-angolan-angolan, canada-canadian-canadian, japan-japanese-japanese (guy?), iceland-icelandic-ice? (lander? icelandic? i talkd to an icelandic?) etc etc etc. thare ar mor than a million geografical names, and for all of them yu hav to lern the adjectiv sepratly or look up someware, sometimes it takes ages, wile in my sistem yu dont hav to do nothing but put the ending yu'v lernd - altho thare is a dozen special cases yu hav to lern extra.

as long as yu stay home and maybe visit your naboring cuntries and maybe 2 or 3 cuntries on (in?) another continent, it is not a problem. but i'v traveld to cuntries menny peeple eeven dont know they exist, and i wrote about them, and the mor yu do it, the mor complicated it gets. how do yu call the inhabbitants of the marshall islands? and the peeple of the solomon islands? the peeple of the french region perigord? the peeple of the brazilian state of goiás? and i can say "i talked to an american", but i cant say "i talked to an english", and i eeven dont know if i can say "i talkd to a japanese" or if i hav to complement it with japanese man/guy/woman', etc, and to avoid mistakes, i complement it with guy or man, but that is just one of the problems...

(koy)a propósito, el internacionalizee nombres:

(en)by the way, the internationalized names:

deutshland - deutshi - deutshe
franse - fransi - franciano
espania - espani - espaniano
angola - angoli - angolano
canada - canadi - canadano
japan - japani - japaniano
island - islandi - islandishe
marshall islands - marshalli - marshalliano
solomon islands - solomoni - solomoniano

-ishe pro el europano germanico landes, -iski pro la slavis, e -iano pro la rest. or -ano, if the name ends with an -A but not -IA. -ishe and -iano can lose thare last vowel if no consonant folloes.

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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-06, 16:01

Zé do Rock wrote:of course this doesnt correspond to the english pronunciation, and it is not part of the HS. it is just part of the internationalization of geografical names.

But "south" isn't a geographical name in and of itself. Sometimes it's just a directional adverb on a par with "left" or "kitty-corner".

Zé do Rock wrote:hav yu ever complaned about the name of the city st. louis? i guess yu havnt. stil, st. louis is a saint, wy does the city hav to hav the same name?

Whatever argument it is you're making here, I'm not following it at all.

Zé do Rock wrote:how do yu call the inhabbitants of the marshall islands? and the peeple of the solomon islands?

"Marshall Islanders"
"Solomon Islanders"

Cf. Icelanders, Greenlanders.
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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-06, 16:48

kevin wrote:
Zé do Rock wrote:short A is the A in cat, short E the E in bed, short I the I in bit, short O the O in lot, short U the U in cut. long A is the A in male, long E is the E in been, long I the I in bite, long O the O in bote, long U the U in butiful (the first one). other vowels arnt changed, unless we can cut something. and the words i gave as example ar alredy perfect.

So you're proposing a new spelling system to make things more regular, but knowingly ignore like half of the vowel phonemes that English has and expect that the result will still be a considerable improvement? Isn't that a daring assumption, and another sign for a half-assed attempt? If we already modify the spelling of every other word, shouldn't it be possible to get something way more systematic?


(es)(pt)(de)(fr)uns reclamam ki é mudansa dimais, outros reclamam ki num é suficient... HS is wie gesagt nich meine erfindung, sondern das ergebnis einer abstimmung bei der TESS, und das waren die änderungen die durchgekommen sind. y a pas de sense en luttee pour plus dee chanj si cee chanj étaient pas aprouvee par lee simpatisants de la reforme, lee chances kils étaient aprouvee par la majoritee de la societee sont encor plus petites.

en TS (traditional spelling) tu puedes escribir 50% de las palabras correctamente, si tu conoces todos los modelos de la ortografia, pero no tienes garantía ninguna que vas a escribirlo bien. no HS você pod screver 50% das palavras certo, por regra, ou seja, você tem certeza ki ta screvendo certo, i 30% pelos modelos. das heisst, statt 0-50 hast du 50-30, und wenn du die muster kennst, bleiben nur 20% unregelmäszig, statt 50% unregelmäszig und 50% unsicher. je dirais: si je gagne 3000 euro par mois ee puis je gagne 7000, cest une amélioracion, mais peutetre tu penses ke seulment un salair de 20.000 est une amélioracion - je prendrai les 7000...

(en)some peeple complane it is too menny changes, others complane they'r not enuf... as i sed, the HS is not my invention, it is the result of a plebbicit among TESS members, and those wer the rules aproved by a majority. thare is no point in fiting for mor changes if they cant eeven be aproved by peeple who aprove of reforms, the chances that they would be aproved by the population at large would be certanly smaller. of course evryone wants it changed, but menny members prefer other solutions (especialy wen the patterns arnt cleer)... one proposes groop, another one grupe, another one grup, another one grüp, another one gruop, etc etc etc

in TS (traditional spelling) yu can spel 50% of the words the rite way, if yu know all the patterns of english spelling, but yu never hav a guarantee that yu'l spel it rite. in HS yu can spel 50% of the words rite, by rule, i.e. yu can be sure yu'r spelling is rite, and 30% by patterns. so insted of 0 realy good spellings and 50 haf good spellings, yu hav 50 realy good spellings and 30% haf good spellings. yu can say: if i get 3000 euro per month and i can get 7000, it is an improvement, but maybe yu think that only if yu get 20.000 it is an improvement - i'd take the 7000 ennyway...

thare is also RITE, thats a much mor comprehensiv sistem, altho it stiks to inglishe patterns. that was a colectiv sistem too, but in a smaller grupe. i mìself invented axentus, a sistem that úzes dìacritics, and éven that sistem isnt perfect, becaus it dusnt care about shwas in móst cáses - thare is no agrément on ware shwas ar, éven dictionarys cant agré (in'tElIdZ@nt/in'tEl@dZ@nt). and it dusnt cáter for cáses ware US and UK inglishe dónt agré. no inglishe speling sistem can clám it is perfect.

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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-06, 17:13

Zé do Rock wrote:the HS is not my invention, it is the result of a plebbicit among TESS members, and those wer the rules aproved by a majority.

Do you have a link? I can't find any mention of it on their website. According to their press release, the vote on a new orthography isn't scheduled to take place until four months from now.
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Re: Europan

Postby Naava » 2018-02-06, 17:42

Sorry for being so silent here; I don't have time nor energy to say much about the spelling reform or answer the previous messages right now (even though I'd like to). However, there's two things I'd like to know:

1) At first I thought you're aiming at phonemic orthography, which confused me because this clearly isn't a phonemic orthography. :D So, have I understood it right this time: you're trying to regularize English spelling system

- by deleting silent letters (except when you're not...? Like I said, I don't have time to read your messages carefully enough, but I think I saw you say something about horse vs horss spelling and word final /s/ vs /z/)
- by giving some vowels a phoneme = letter(s) match - and I guess it works only in stressed syllables?
- by adding a double consonant after a stressed syllable

Was there something I missed?

2) What is the goal? Who do you do this for?

3) Lol one more, I'd also like to know more about the background. Who are these TESS members, how many are they, how did you meet, where did you get the idea of designing a new spelling for English?

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-06, 18:20

linguoboy wrote:But "south" isn't a geographical name in and of itself. Sometimes it's just a directional adverb on a par with "left" or "kitty-corner".


(koy)claro, mas fa también parte de muchos nombres geograficos.

(en)sure, but it is also a part of menny geografical names.

Zé do Rock wrote:hav yu ever complaned about the name of the city st. louis? i guess yu havnt. stil, st. louis is a saint, wy does the city hav to hav the same name?

linguoboy wrote:Whatever argument it is you're making here, I'm not following it at all.


(koy)dormouse "протестiраха" ki la pople af Iрelаnd ще се nареkат "iрiс" i iзпратiха mi статia de Уikiпеdia, за da поkаjа това. no seria necessario, afinal 'iris' é la palavra pro 'iris' in todas linguas nacional europano fora ceki, slovaki e bielarusski - e europano, clar... jedenfals lo wolte critica dass ik a neues homografo creire, was correct is. mas sa se passe super souvent ki geografico nomes ha des otres senses, com turkey et turkey. a propósito, con el internacionalizacion eso hapen no mo: la nome de la land is türkiye, la nom af el animal is turky...

uma vez i vi um map af europa, alu correct, mas era um mapa brasilian, traducat af el inglish. das shlimme is, dass 'peru' is das brasiliano word pro pute, so war la nomen af el andre lander correct, ma na region wo is türkei stand 'peru', af el englishe 'turkey' übasetzt...

(en)dormouse "protested" that the peeple from ireland would be calld 'iris', and sent me a wikipedia article to show that. it wouldnt hav been necessary, after all 'iris' is the word for 'iris' in all europano national languages except czeki, slovaki and bielarusski - and europan, of course... ennyway he wanted to criticize that i create a new homograf, wich is rite. but that happens all the time with geografic names, as in turkey the cuntry and turkey the annimal. by the way, with the internationalization this dusnt happen ennymor, in this case: the cuntrys name is türkiye, the annimal is the turky...

once i saw a map of europa, a brazilian map, seemingly translated from english. the weerd thing is that the word for the annimal 'turky' in portuguese is 'peru', and all the cuntry names wer rite, but insted of 'turquia' on the place ware turkey is, it was written 'peru'...

Zé do Rock wrote:how do yu call the inhabbitants of the marshall islands? and the peeple of the solomon islands?

"Marshall Islanders"
"Solomon Islanders"
[/quote]

(koy)wel, i looked up oso, ma wat abaut the adjectiv? marshallian, marshallan, marshallese, mashallish, solomonan, solomonian, solomonese, solomonish...? de toute fasson i suis securo ki tu has cherche la reponse, ou tu sas les demonimos pour ale les landes, regions et citis du mond?

(en)wel, i lookd up too, but wat about the adjectiv? marshallian, marshallan, marshallese, mashallish, solomonan, solomonian, solomonese, solomonish... (i know the answer, i'm asking to know if yu know without looking up)? ennyway i'm sure yu lookd for the answer, or do yu know the demonyms for all the cuntries, reegions and cities of the world?

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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-06, 19:08

Zé do Rock wrote:(en)wel, i lookd up too, but wat about the adjectiv? marshallian, marshallan, marshallese, mashallish, solomonan, solomonian, solomonese, solomonish... (i know the answer, i'm asking to know if yu know without looking up)? ennyway i'm sure yu lookd for the answer, or do yu know the demonyms for all the cuntries, reegions and cities of the world?

Do you know the name of the capital city of every country in the world? Of course not; if for some reason you happen to need this information, you look it up. I don't understand why that's such a huge burden for you.

I've lived nearly half a century on this planet without ever needing an adjectival form for either of these countries. If live for a half century more, I'll most likely still never need one.
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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-06, 22:33

linguoboy wrote:
Zé do Rock wrote:the HS is not my invention, it is the result of a plebbicit among TESS members, and those wer the rules aproved by a majority.

Do you have a link? I can't find any mention of it on their website. According to their press release, the vote on a new orthography isn't scheduled to take place until four months from now.


(de)(fr)es gibt eine seite mit den regeln, aber ich kann sie nich finden. tu peux voir dee citacions, par example ici:

(en)thare is a site with the rulesm but i cant find it now. yu can see citations, as for instance heer:

https://books.google.de/books?id=IfpkBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=%22english+spelling+society%22+%22house+stile%22&source=bl&ots=EkmBkjcMl_&sig=9ToN4tCi6nihRssSwNPSlujOabo&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio1pa_-5HZAhXF1qQKHZBwD24Q6AEIRzAH#v=onepage&q=%22english%20spelling%20society%22%20%22house%20stile%22&f=false.

or this: https://interimhousestile.wordpress.com/

or this: http://alt.language.english.spelling.reform.narkive.com/NGTUZ58u/complete-overhaul-vs-minimal-respell-reforms

this is on a TESS site, but it must be old (see SSSHSC) - http://92.48.127.143/~spelling/discussion-groups.

(es)(pt)(de)(fr)de cualquier manera: como eu dici neci ou num outro tópico, os membros votaram, um subcomitê (incluindo eu) feiz uma triajim - tinha umas regras ki incluíam im part outras - só ki o diretor si recusou a decretar o uso oficial na sociedad. aber nich wenige mitglider benützen es weiter. tu pourais dir ke cest ridicul dir ke cest le stil de la méson de la TESS, mais le sistem a pas dôtre nom, ee on continu a lapelee 'house stile'. y el lo es realmente, porqué es el único sistema proyectado para ser utilizado como el estilo de la casa.

en 4 meses abrá una conferencia internacional, para decidir cual será el proyecto oficial para representar TESS, o sea, el esquema que TESS va proponer en primero lugar al mundo... eu vou propor o HS, mais eu tenho la minhas dúvidas ki elis vao comessar a usar, seja cual for o sistema mais votado... i eci é o problema da TESS: sie predigt wasser, trinkt aber wein...

(en)ennyway: as i hav sed in this thred or in another one, the members voted, a subcomittee was apointed to sort the rules out - thare was some overlapping - and make a list of 10 000 words - but eventualy the chareman refused to adopt it for the society. stil, quite a few members keep using it. yu could say that it is ridicculus to say that it is the house stile of TESS if it is not used oficialy, but the sistem doesnt hav another name, and evrybody keeps calling it the 'house stile'. or the 'interim house stile', IHS.

in 4 months thare wil be an international confrence, but thats something else: peeple should vote on a scheem that TESS wil propose as its favorit to the world... i'l propose the HS, but i hav my douts that the comittee wil aprove its oficial use, no matter wat is voted for... and this is the problem of TESS: they preech water, but drink wine...

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-07, 8:41

dormouse:

---Sure, but English speakers make the distinction and are used to it. Why does English have to be like other European languages again?

(koy)yu mait pensa ki nenativis shouldnt mess around "co nashe lingua", mas inglish is no la propertee af a nacion, it is as lingua franca la lingua de la humanitee. probabli ai plu nenative spikis ki usa inglishe ki native spikis.

i supone ki ustedes ha no dise problema de serching geografico nomes in el USA, porkee ale computor configuraciones is consentree in inglish. ma jiвееsh in Gеrmаnia, kъdето some kоmpютor nаsтrоiki is in nеmski езik, e drуgi in inglish, това is malko pо-rазlichno. cuand i kero comprar um tiket onlain a milano, la programa pode sa la tri nomes, mas oso podería hapen ki la programa solo sab el aleman forma 'mailand' (or in brasil milao), o meibi solo el inglishe forma 'milan', o solo el italiano forma 'milano'. so oni mus manchmal ale dri versuchen, e non ali sa la nomes af a citi in diverso linguas...

kevin sent a wikipedia lista con at least 100 inglishe nomes de german citis, and i bet neither germans nor americans sa plu ki 5% de them.

(en)yu mite think that non nativs shouldnt mess around "with our language", but inglish is nobodys language, it is the neerest we can get of a humanity language. probably there are mor non native speakers speaking english than native speakers.

i guess you dont have this problem with serching for geografical names in america, since the computer settings ar all concentrated on english. but living in germany, ware some computer settings ar in german and others in english, it is a bit difrent. wen i want to book a flite to milan online, the program could know all the three names, but it mite happen that the program only knoes the german form 'mailand' (in brazil milao), or maybe only the english form 'milan', or only the italian 'milano'. and not evrybody knoes the name of the place in several languages.

kevin sent a wikipedia list with at leest 100 inglishe names of german cities, and i bet neither germans nor americans know mor than 5% of them.

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-07, 9:53

Dormouse,

Here's what people are confused by: how presumptuous you're being. Why do you presume to change English when you still make basic grammatical mistakes, have holes in your vocabulary and clearly don't know the true pronunciation of many words?

(fr)(es)(pt)com jai di, le HS est pa mon invencion, cest un sistem colectiv okel jai participee.

claro que no tengo el vocabulario de un ablante nativo, y ago errores, principalmente en la area de las preposiciones, que no son muy lojicas en inglish... "i flew on the plane to paris and..." "wat, yu flew ON the plane, so wer yu riding it??? wasnt it too cold and windy?". mais eu pacei anos studando as relassoes da ortografia e pronúncia no inglish, fazendo statisticas, i muintas veiz o pessoal da TESS - praticament todos nativos - mi pergunta cual é statisticament a manera mais provavil di pronunciar ou screver uma palavra pelos modelos da ortografia inglish. und da ich in 35 inglishesprachigen ländern war, hab ich auch einiges über die unterschide gelernt...

(en)as i sed befor, the HS isnt my invention, it is a colectiv sistem of wich i participated.

of course i dont hav the vocabbulary of a nativ speeker, and i make mistakes, especialy in the area of prepositions, that arnt very logical in inglish... "i flew on the plane to paris and..." "wat, yu flew ON the plane, so wer yu riding it??? wasnt it too cold and windy?" but i spent yeers studdying the relationship of spelling and pronunciation in inglish, making statistics, and quite offen peeple in TESS - neerly all nativs - ask me wat is statisticly the most probbable way to pronounce or spel a word by the patterns of english spelling. and having been in 35 inglishe speeking cuntries, i lernd a bit about the accent difrences...

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-07, 14:02

I had written:
---geographical names are the same for all languages

vijayjon answ
---Nope.

---The Netherlands
Pays-Bas
Nederland
Países Bajos
and so on and so forth.

(koy)un fois ik etais in china na post, e lu durou presk dox ora tu discovre com oni sei 'austria' in chinan (odili). et 'italia' in vietnamian is 'Ý'. so i seria la laste personi ki vou sei ki la nomes is la sam in ale linguas. lis is la sam in mai sistem, onde lis is el originale nomes.

(en)one i was in a post office in china, and it took almost 2 ours to find out how to say 'austria' in chinan (odili). and 'italia' in vietnamian is 'Ý'. so i'd be the last person to say that names ar the same in all languages. they'r the same in my sistem, simply the original names.

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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-07, 14:10

Zé do Rock wrote:they'r the same in my sistem, simply the original names.

The "original names"? So a mix of grunts and gestures?
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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-07, 16:00

dehin,

(de)(fr)(es)(pt)tausend jare lang gab es keine feste schreibungen fürs inglishe, shakespeare hatte manchmal fürs gleiche wort im gleichen absatz 4 oder 5 diverse schreibungen, und kaum einer hatte probleme damit. mintnan sest plu com sa, mai la lang est pa aretee: vese frecuentemente frases como 'i luv u', palabras como 'overnite' o 'lite', etc. sem dúvida ki vai te jent reclamandu, mais eu achu ki a maioria num tem problema cum issu. klar, meine texte sind oft etwas länger, tatsache is aber, das bei der umfrage, die wir gemacht ham, 80% meinten, es is ser leicht zu lesen und 20%, das es leicht zu lesen is. une seul persone a di ke sétai dificil, mai el a di oci kel detest une ortograf reformee... y en un foro donde la jente aprende lenguas con escritas dificílimas me parece un poco absurdo que la jente tenga problemas...

i comu eu ja dici, pra kem ta comessandu a aprender a língua, elis tem milhoins di testus a disposissaum, i muintus milharis di mensajins neci fórum, scritas im inglishe normau, acin elis podim aprender comu si screv inglish. mais pela scrita du inglishe nunca si sab comu a palavra é pronunciada, cum reforma ortografica im muintus casu sim. wenn du espaniano lernst, is das kein probleem, weil die sprache eine zimlich regelmäszige ortografie hat, aber zum beispil in brasil gibt es ausländer, die ir leben lang für das wort 'pouco' /pouko/ sagen, und sie sterben one zu wissen, das das auslaut-O im portugalian ein /u/ is. en deutshland y a dés étranjee ki dis /ist/ pour le mo 'ist' tout sa vi, pars kil lont apri com sa dan le cours de deutsh, mai lee jen dis /is/. solo profesores pedantes, locutores de telediario y estranjeros lo dicen /ist/, y como el estranjero probablemente no suena como un profesor pedante, probablemente sonará como estranjero... i si você tem essa informassaum na scrita, você num fais eci tipu di erru...

america/americas - klar, meistens sagt man 'americas', aber wikipedia sagt 'americas (also called collectively 'america'). ee on peu dir "les européans et les asiatiques sont d'accord en ce point", mai on peu pa dir "les européans et les americains sont d'accord en ce point", la il fo dir "les européans et les habitants du continent americain sont d'accord en ce point". complicado, no?

di cuauker forma, valeu pela sujestaum amigaviu - eu num abri um novu topicu 'reforma ortografica', purkê ja tem um, mais comu neci forum 'europan' eu so a pessoa ki mais screv, eu ficu pur akí mesmu - é tudu conlang!

(en)for thousand yeers thare wer no fix spellings for the words in inglish, shakespeare sumtimes wrote the same word in the same paragraf in 4 or 5 difrent spellings, and it seems that peeple didnt hav menny problems with it. now its not like that enny mor, but language didnt stop: u offen see frases like "i luv u", words like 'overnite' or 'lite', not to mention all the companies that hav names like 'brite lite'. of corse sum peeple complane, but i cant imagin that most peeple hav problems with that. sure, my texts ar a bit longer, but the fact is that we made a pole asking peeple wether they find HS very eesy, eesy, rather eesy, rather dificult, dificult or very dificult to reed, and 80% sed it is very eesy, almost 20% sed it is eesy - a single person sed it is very dificult, but he also sed he hates spelling reform... and in a forum ware peeple lern languages with very dificult writings (at leest from an european point of vew), it seems unlikely to me that peeple should hav problems.

and as i sed, for peeple starting to lern the language, thare ar millions of texts to disposition in the world and on the web, and thousands in this forum. so with all that they can lern how to write in inglish. but inglishe spelling nevver tels yu with safety how the pronunciation should be, reformd spelling dus, if not in all cases, at leest in menny. yu'r lerning espanian, and yu can be glad that they reformd the language in a way that yu can reed evrything without making mistakes and can spel with just a few mistakes. but for instance in brazil thare ar menny foreners who pronounce a word like 'pouco' as /pouko/, insted of /poku/, and they di without knowing that the final O in portuguese is an /u/, thus sounding like foreners thare whole life. in deutshland quite a few foreners lern in scool that yu say /ist/ for the word 'ist' (=is), but only pedantic teechers, news speekers and foreners (who lernd it in scool or in a deutshe corse) say it like that. if we speld 'is' as it is usualy spoken, they wouldnt hav all that work of saying /ist/ just to sound like foreners.

america/americas - sure, usualy peeple say 'americas', but wikipedia ses: 'americas (also called collective 'america'). and one can say 'europeans and asians agree on this point', but yu cant say 'europeans and americans agree on this point", thare yu hav to say "europeans and the inhabbitants of the american continent agree on this point". thats not exactly simple, is it?

ennyway, thanks for the frendly suggestion - i didnt open a new thred 'spelling reform' becaus thare is alredy one, but since i'm the most freequent writer in this thred, i'l stay around for the moment - it's all conlang, isnt it?

wat is eesier to understand?

Årez - Iinå - Ūt - Iirth - Rūof - Äviif - Kiis - Näväs - Thogei - Äniin - Nett

as in one of the messages around heer, or:

one - two - three - for - five - six - sevven - ate - nine - ten?

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linguoboy
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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-07, 16:41

Zé do Rock wrote:but the fact is that we made a pole asking peeple wether they find HS very eesy, eesy, rather eesy, rather dificult, dificult or very dificult to reed, and 80% sed it is very eesy, almost 20% sed it is eesy - a single person sed it is very dificult, but he also sed he hates spelling reform

Source? Who was polled, what were the questions, and what was the response rate like? You can get almost results you want from an unscientific poll if you know what to do.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Zé do Rock
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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-07, 17:06

linguoboy,

---Shouldn't that be "tuvalua", "tuvalui", "tuvaluiano", and "barcelonai"? What do you have against hiatus, Zé?

(koy)la sam as mouste linguas. auminus europano linguas. oni sei no 'mexicoans', 'colombiaians', somwen oni mem ad a letra dat existe no na stemvord to evita la hiatu, as 'congolese', e no congoese. inglishe ha mem un extra article tu evita hiatus: oni can no sei 'a eagle', oni mus sei 'an eagle', franciano shalau sei 'ma image' ma change tu 'mon image', meme si la vord is femal.

(en)the same as most languages. at leest europano languages. yu dont say mexicoans, colombiaians, sumtimes yu eeven ad a letter that didnt exist in the stem word to avoid the hiatus, as congolese (and not congoese). inglishe has eeven an extra article to avoid hiatus: yu cant say 'a eagle', yu hav to say 'an eagle', franciano should say 'ma image' but changes to 'mon image', eeven the word being femminin.


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