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My first conlang - Leware kääñ

Posted: 2016-08-22, 20:49
by Salajane
Alphabet:
.........

Re: My first conlang - Leware

Posted: 2016-08-23, 2:39
by linguoboy
Why is [w] written two different ways?

It seems odd to have phonemic palatalisation only in coronal non-plosives. What happened to historically palatalised coronal stops? Did they develop into other sounds (such as affricates)?

Re: My first conlang - Leware

Posted: 2016-08-23, 5:45
by Salajane
linguoboy wrote:Why is [w] written two different ways?

Ok, I will delete it.

linguoboy wrote:It seems odd to have phonemic palatalisation only in coronal non-plosives.


It is my first version of phonology, so I will change and improve it in the process.

linguoboy wrote:What happened to historically palatalised coronal stops? Did they develop into other sounds (such as affricates)?


[tʲ] - [tsʲ] - [sʲ]
[dʲ] - [dzʲ] - [zʲ]

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-23, 7:24
by Salajane
New version

B - [b]
D - [d]
G - [g]
J - [j]
K - [k]
L - [l]
Ļ - [lʲ]
M - [m]
N - [n]
Ņ - [nʲ]
Ñ - [ŋ]
P - [p]
R - [r]
Ŗ - [rʲ]
S - [s]
Ś - [sʲ]
T - [t]
W - [w~v]
Z - [z]
Ź - [zʲ]

A - [ɑ]
E - [e]
I - [i]
O - [o]
U - [u]

Re: My first conlang - Leware

Posted: 2016-08-26, 14:18
by Salajane
Present tense

Meaļin - to live

meaļim - I live
meaļis - you live
meaļil - he/she lives

meaļimi - we live
meaļiśi - you live
meaļiļi - they live

Re: My first conlang - Leware

Posted: 2016-08-26, 14:44
by Salajane
Plural

1. When there is a short vowel in the first syllable, it becomes long:

kana - night
kaana - nights

2. When there is a long vowel (except "aa") in the first syllable, it changes into a diphthong:

ee - ei
oo - ou
ii - ie
oo - uo

eeri - star
eiri - stars

3. When there is a diphthong (or a long "aa") in the first syllable, the next consonant becomes long:

meaļu - life
meaļļu - lives

Re: My first conlang - Leware

Posted: 2016-08-26, 15:16
by Salajane
I will use Ș instead of Ś.
But I couldn't find the same for Z.

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-27, 8:06
by Salajane
Colors

wañña - color
nuaña - blue (dark)
ruaga - red
lieņa - yellow
suoki - yellow (light)
deiwe - green
zeara - violet
kiare - black

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-27, 8:30
by Salajane
...

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-27, 8:38
by Salajane
Past tense

Meaļin - to live

meaļiñgem - I lived
meaļiñges - you lived
meaļiñgel - he/she lived

meaļiñgemi - we lived
meaļiñgeśi - you lived
meaļiñgeļi - they lived

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-28, 12:49
by Salajane
New version

Nd. - Northern dialect (standard)
Sd. - Southern dialect
Ed. - Eastern dialect


B - [b]
D - [d]
Ď - [dʲ] (Sd.) or [dzʲ] (Nd.; Ed.)
G - [g] (Nd.; Sd.) or [ɣ] (Ed.)
Ģ - [gʲ] or [dʲ~dzʲ]
J - [j]
K - [k] (Nd.; Sd.) or [x] (Ed.)
Ķ - [kʲ] or [tʲ~tsʲ]
L - [l]
Ļ - [lʲ]
M - [m]
N - [n]
Ņ - [nʲ]
Ñ - [ŋ]
Ñj - [ŋʲ] (Sd.)
P - [p]
R - [r]
Ŗ - [rʲ]
S - [s]
Ś - [sʲ]
T - [t]
Ț - [tʲ] or [tsʲ]
W - [w] (Nd.; Sd.) or [v] (Ed.)
Z - [z]
Ź - [zʲ]

A - [ɑ]
E - [e]
I - [i]
O - [o]
U - [u]

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-28, 14:25
by linguoboy
Irusia wrote:G - [g] (Nd.; Sd.) or [ɣ] (Ed.)
Ģ - [gʲ] or [dʲ~dzʲ]
K - [k] (Nd.; Sd.) or [x] (Ed.)
Ķ - [kʲ] or [tʲ~tsʲ]

It is extremely unusual for a language to have velar fricatives and no unvoiced velar stop. Having [x] and [kʲ] but no [k] strikes me as even more odd. I can't think of any natural language with this sort of distribution of phonemes. (Maybe you aren't actually trying to be naturalistic with Lewami, but it looks to me like you are.)

My suggestion is to keep /k/ as a phoneme in all dialects but have it surface as [x] in Eastern under particular conditions. (Intervocalic position would be the most common environment crosslinguistically, followed maybe by coda position.) Here's an example what this might look like:

suoki, kiare
Eastern: [suoxi], [kiare]
Elsewhere: [suoki], [kiare]

Optionally, /kʲ/ could shift to [ç] under those same conditions.

Also, if I'm understanding the transcriptions correctly, does this mean that Ģ and Ď merge completely in some varieties?

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-28, 17:25
by Salajane
linguoboy wrote:It is extremely unusual for a language to have velar fricatives and no unvoiced velar stop.
Having [x] and [kʲ] but no [k] strikes me as even more odd. I can't think of any natural language with this sort of distribution of phonemes. (Maybe you aren't actually trying to be naturalistic with Lewami, but it looks to me like you are.)


Yes, you're right. When I desided to change [k] into [x], I didn't realise that in this case there will be no [k] at all.

linguoboy wrote:My suggestion is to keep /k/ as a phoneme in all dialects but have it surface as [x] in Eastern under particular conditions. (Intervocalic position would be the most common environment crosslinguistically, followed maybe by coda position.) Here's an example what this might look like:

suoki, kiare
Eastern: [suoxi], [kiare]
Elsewhere: [suoki], [kiare]


Good idea. I will consider it.
I have another variant:

[x] before front vowels
[k] before back vowels

What do you think about this?

linguoboy wrote:Optionally, /kʲ/ could shift to [ç] under those same conditions.


It makes sense. Thank you for the suggestion, I will change it.

linguoboy wrote:Also, if I'm understanding the transcriptions correctly, does this mean that Ģ and Ď merge completely in some varieties?


Not completely. It depends.
In Nd. and Ed.
Ď - [dzʲ];
Ģ - usually [dʲ], but when person speaks very fast it is pronounced [dzʲ].
The same with Ķ.

Thank you for comments and suggestions, they helped me improve my conlang.

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-29, 0:22
by Salajane
Personal pronouns

mi - I
si - you
li - he, she

mewu - we two
sewu - you two
lewu - they two

meje - we
seje - you
leje - they

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-29, 0:45
by linguoboy
Irusia wrote:Good idea. I will consider it.
I have another variant:

[x] before front vowels
[k] before back vowels

What do you think about this?

I've never seen a distribution like that. Since front vowels are far more likely than back vowels to cause affrication (which often become deaffricated to fricatives), if anything I would expect to see the opposite.

Irusia wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Also, if I'm understanding the transcriptions correctly, does this mean that Ģ and Ď merge completely in some varieties?


Not completely. It depends.
In Nd. and Ed.
Ď - [dzʲ];
Ģ - usually [dʲ], but when person speaks very fast it is pronounced [dzʲ].

This looks to me like a textbook case of spelling pronunciation. (That is, the natural pronunciation is really [dzʲ], but once speakers learn they are spelled with different letters, they try to make a distinction in pronunciation by using [dʲ] for one of the letters instead.)

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-29, 4:35
by h34
linguoboy wrote:
Irusia wrote:Good idea. I will consider it.
I have another variant:

[x] before front vowels
[k] before back vowels

What do you think about this?

I've never seen a distribution like that. Since front vowels are far more likely than back vowels to cause affrication (which often become deaffricated to fricatives), if anything I would expect to see the opposite
It reminds me of the pronunciation of g in Spanish, with [x] before front vowels and [g] before back vowels.

(Wouldn't this development have been possible? Palatalized [k] > affrication > fricative [ç] > fricative [x])

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-29, 14:09
by linguoboy
h34 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Irusia wrote:Good idea. I will consider it.
I have another variant:

[x] before front vowels
[k] before back vowels

What do you think about this?

I've never seen a distribution like that. Since front vowels are far more likely than back vowels to cause affrication (which often become deaffricated to fricatives), if anything I would expect to see the opposite
It reminds me of the pronunciation of g in Spanish, with [x] before front vowels and [g] before back vowels.

What variety of Spanish would that be? Because it's not any one that I'm familiar with.

h34 wrote:(Wouldn't this development have been possible? Palatalized [k] > affrication > fricative [ç] > fricative [x])

You're right, that's entirely possible. Also [k] > [ʧ] > [ʃ] > [x].

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-29, 16:00
by Dormouse559
linguoboy wrote:I've never seen a distribution like that. Since front vowels are far more likely than back vowels to cause affrication (which often become deaffricated to fricatives), if anything I would expect to see the opposite
It sounds like Irusia is suggesting what you describe here. /k/ is pronounced [x] before front vowels and [k] before back vowels, implying some sort of affrication/frication before front vowels, like you would expect.

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-29, 22:43
by h34
linguoboy wrote: What variety of Spanish would that be? Because it's not any one that I'm familiar with.
I didn't express it well. The sound alternation [k] > [x] in Lewami made me think of the [g] > [x] alternation in Spanish (i.e. [g] in ga-/go-/gu- vs. [x] in ge-/gi-) as it is described in a Wikipedia article on palatalization:
An extreme example occurs in Spanish, whose palatalized ('soft') g has ended up as [x] from a long process where Latin /ɡ/ became palatalized to [ɡʲ] (Late Latin) and then affricated to [dʒ] (Proto-Romance), deaffricated to [ʒ] (Old Spanish), devoiced to [ʃ] (16th century), and finally retracted to a velar, giving [x] (c. 1650)
Anyway, it's a bit off-topic...

Re: My first conlang - Lewami

Posted: 2016-08-30, 3:45
by linguoboy
Okay, now I get it. You didn't specify what g you were talking about--orthographic g, the phoneme /g/, historical *g, etc.--and I guessed wrong since /g/ in contemporary Spanish has both stop and fricative/approximant allophones (and I know some Spanish learners who incorrectly substituted [x] for the allophone [ ɣ˕]).