My conlang so far: Halvian

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Mentilliath
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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-05-12, 5:11

Alright, /f/ removed from first post :D

And sorry I wasn't clear about that; <x> is pronounced /ks/. Sure, ksílala would be an acceptable transliteration, but in my conscript, I created a separate letter for /ks/ and /ps/ (same goes for /kʷ/ and /gʷ/), so I use <x> and <qu> for /ks/ and /kʷ/, since they're available.

Using <x> does obscure some morphology sometimes, of course. As in the verb késose - to heat, warm (up), the aorist is zero-grade with augment, thus áksoi, but written áxoi. The <x> sort of "hides" the origin of that form.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-05-12, 5:21

Okay. I thought it was /ks/, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions. It could've been something like /ts/ or /kr/ or something.

I actually really love <x>, but I no longer have it in Isyan because I changed the conscript to an actual alphabet and I didn't make its own letter. But it does have a ligature of k and s.

Also, sorry I always bring in my conlang on your thread :whistle:

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-05-12, 5:23

I like <x> too, especially when it is pronounced /ks/.

And it's okay. I bring my conlang into other people's threads all the time :wink:
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-05-12, 5:43

X for anything else looks weird. I hate when people transliterate Cyrillic <х> as <x> insteadof <h>. I can kinda stand it representing certain other phonemes: depends on the language.

Also, -m isn't so Latin and Sanskrit. It's used in Slavic languages too.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-05-12, 5:53

True. I haven't axed -m yet. I think I like the difference between -n and -m (the former mainly for accusatives, the latter for neuter nominatives and 1st person singular verbs). Both -n and -m occur in a number of noun and verb endings actually (verbal -m is always first person though), so I don't think having both is a problem. I know that in Latin, final -m weakened to a nasalization and then dropped out, and of course, if either one became a nasalization in Halvian that would be very confusing, but I'm implying that in Halvian they are clearly pronounced and distinct from each other.

In Galsaic, for example, most instances of final nasal became a nasalization.

Thus, Halvian "tándan" (accusative of "rose"), Galsaic "tândã" (/tɨndã/), Halvian "amélam" (I was loving), Galsaic. "âmielã" /ə'mjɛlã/
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-05-12, 16:53

A brief note about some verbal forms:

Verbs that have a nasal+voiced consonant or a diphthong in their present stem lose the nasal or the first element of the diphthong in the aorist, similar to Greek.

In this way:

Present

sóndumi - I tear, rip
taídomi - I rush, race

Aorist

asódui - I tore, ripped
atídoi - I rushed, raced

This can be seen as a form of zero-grade ablaut. All aorist stems ablaut in some way. Zero-grade takes priority. If zero-grade isn't an option, then the stem vowel changes.

Thus, in a verb like tábnese, *átbnei is not a possible form (too many consonants). So the vowel changes instead:

atébnei - I hated
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-18, 7:21

Emiaj healyejo Halvio fervior? Yn umdersuvu ilgarnu mordeva ^^
How goes Halvian? I've been looking forward to seeing the injunctive ^^
Last edited by Koko on 2015-06-23, 4:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-06-18, 21:39

Hey :) Glad you're still interested.

I just haven't been working on it much lately; I also write, so I've been preoccupied with that, and my job got busier in the spring. But since I'm a teacher's assistant, I have the summer to work on conlangs ;)

I can definitely discuss the injunctive/gnomic mood next, since it's a fun one :)
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-18, 23:09

Mentilliath wrote:Hey :) Glad you're still interested.

Imyartu :P ! Sibu tojad ;)
Of course :P ! Always will be ;)

I just haven't been working on it much lately; I also write, so I've been preoccupied with that, and my job got busier in the spring. But since I'm a teacher's assistant, I have the summer to work on conlangs ;)

I see. That explains why you've been gone so long too.

I can definitely discuss the injunctive/gnomic mood next, since it's a fun one :)

Yay! Now I'm really excited :partyhat: :D !

Do you have any interrogative mood? Or does Halvian mark questions with tone and/or particles?

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-06-21, 1:16

Before we begin, just wanted to name a few changes I've made to Halvian since I last posted:

#livinglanguage :oops:

The secondary 3rd singular ending is no longer -d, /d/. In writing prose samples, final /d/ was all over the place. Too similar to English past tense and too harsh-sounding. Stops at the end of a word in Halvian are restricted to the ablative singular -d and a few short words like <ud>, <naid>, etc. Otherwise, final -d is uncommon. No other final stops occur in Halvian aside from the occasional irregular final -t in words like "lat", and smaller function words like "sot". No words in end in /b/, /p/, /k/, or /g/, that I can think of.

1. The new 3rd singular secondary ending is -th, /θ/. Love that /θ/. As one of my favorite sounds of all time, I don't mind it occurring even more in Halvian than it did before.

2. Nominative neuter ending is now -n, not -m. -m is restricted to verbs and to genitive plurals. I think I only introduced one or two neuter nouns so far, so this isn't really that important.

Injunctive Mood

The injunctive mood is so-called because it is used in injunctions, i.e. negative commands, or prohibitions. For positive commands, the imperative mood is used instead. The injunctive mood has two other functions which will be discussed after the forms are introduced.

1. Injunctive Mood Form

The injunctive mood looks like an unaugmented imperfect most of the time. However, see No. 4 for an explanation of when it can be an unaugmented aorist.

So, for télmese, to leave, we have:

Imperfect: atélmem, atélmes, atélmeth, atélmewe, atélmeton, atélmetān, atélmeme, atélmete, atélmen

The injunctive looks like these forms without the initial a-:

Injunctive forms:

télmem
télmes
télmeth
télmewe
télmeton
télmetān
télmeme
télmete
télmen

2. Injunctive Mood as Injunctive

When used as a true injunctive, the injunctive forms are considered to be present tense by Halvian grammarians. In essence, however, the injunctive mood is tenseless.

The true injunctive forms only occur in the 2nd person.

They are coupled with the prohibitive particle .

Dā télmes. "Do not leave, don't leave, you are not to leave".

Compare with the imperative form:

Télme. "Leave., Get out., Get lost."

(To say "télme" to someone is considered quite rude :P )

3. Injunctive Mood as Intentional

The other function of the injunctive mood is to show intention, typically translated with "shall" or "intend to". This form only occurs in the 1st person.

Télmem gonō. "I intend to leave soon." "I shall be leaving soon."

gonō - adv. "soon"

The future tense can also be used here. However, the injunctive expresses stronger intention than the future. The injunctive is also considered more formal.

4. Injunctive in Sequences of Verbs

The third function of the injunctive forms is in long strings of past tense verbs (either imperfect or aorist). The first verb in such a string or sequence will be in the imperfect or aorist form, however the rest of the verbs will be injunctive, as either an unaugmented imperfect or aorist. Though they are in the injunctive form, they really carry no injunctive meaning.

Atóteth, zin agébrith, amnáttath, pes atólmeth.

"He came, he spoke to me, he became angry, then he left".

In the above sentence, all verb forms are aorist. However, in less formal writing, sometimes the injunctive aorist forms will be used in place of the true aorist in all the verbs of a string of verbs except for the first one. Thus the sentence can be (with the exact same meaning):

Atóteth, zi gébrith, mnáttath, pes tólmeth.

tótese - to come
gábrise - to speak
zi(n) - dat. of 1st person pronoun *zin is a special form used before vowels. It is optional.
menáttase - to become angry (ménos + -tt- inchoative infix).
pes - adv. "then, and then"

This use is mainly used to save time. It is simply the aorist forms without the a-. The same thing occurs in a string of imperfects, but with the imperfect injunctive forms. It is considered somewhat informal. It occurs rarely in writing, but often in speech.

5. Injunctive as Gnomic

The final use of the injunctive is in a gnomic sense. Here the injunctive is again considered to be in the present tense. In English, we often express gnomic sentences by removing an article or demonstrative, such as "The birds are flying" vs. "Birds fly (in general)".

Halvian has no articles, but it can use the injunctive mood to express such "truisms".

Present indicative:

Hōres dóndanti. "The birds are flying".

Present injunctive

Hōres dóndan. "Birds fly (that's just what they do)".

hōr - bird
dóndase - to fly

So that covers the injunctive mood :)


Koko wrote:Do you have any interrogative mood? Or does Halvian mark questions with tone and/or particles?


Halvian usually marks questions (in the absence of question words) with particles. The question particles are ve and ven.

The question particles can either be fronted or encliticized on the first word of the sentence (which can be any word, but often the verb).

Is the girl in the house?

Ve duéna véquai lat?

or

Duénave vequai lat?

or, more commonly

Látive* duéna véquai?

*Note that "lat" gains back its missing -i when a word is encliticized on it.

The negative question marker ven expects the answer "no".

Ven duéna véquai lat? or Látiven duéna véquai?

The girl isn't in the house, is she?
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-21, 1:33

Oh, yeah. You told is about those two particles :P derp

Isyan's injunctive is similar, except it is a completely distinct mood (has its own endings). Since there is no augment, how else is it supposed to be displayed ;) ? It is also used in successive clauses:

Poese o, yer lonyecen davar.
I saw it, then it disappeared.

It also indicates a present habitual, but this may also just be indicated with the present.
Last edited by Koko on 2015-06-25, 23:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-21, 4:35

You could say the new /θ/ developed out of spirantization of */d/ ;) (perhaps *d -> *ð -> θ)

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-06-22, 18:20

Well good to see other people using an injunctive mood; for me, it really is a "miscellaneous" mood. It's all the other mood functions that are too specific to have their own mood.

Koko wrote:You could say the new /θ/ developed out of spirantization of */d/ ;) (perhaps *d -> *ð -> θ)


Yeah, that sounds like a good explanation to me :)
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-22, 18:29

Mentilliath wrote:Well good to see other people using an injunctive mood; for me, it really is a "miscellaneous" mood. It's all the other mood functions that are too specific to have their own mood.

I love the injunctive almost as much as I love the dual.

Yeah, that sounds like a good explanation to me :)

That's my job 8-)

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-06-22, 18:41

Me too :) That's why I had to include the dual and make it fully functional and productive--these marginal, neglected categories.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-22, 19:27

There are so many times in English when I think, "That should dual" and instead say "two <things>" when anybody else would just stick with the plural. Working with the dual has truly influenced my speech.

I'm not sure if the same could ever be said about injunctive. There's no way you can distinguish it from any other mood.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-06-23, 3:29

It's true, I mean, the only sense in which it could be distinguished is the gnomic use, because it does make a semantic difference and we have ways of making that difference (from regular present tense) in English. But clearly the Halvian injunctive is a mish-mash mood. But it's fun like that ;)

In Halvian at least, the injunctive is essentially the fully unmarked form of the verb, so it takes up the uses that don't quite fit into the other moods.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-23, 3:59

I still marvel at how well our ideas align ^^

How many different aspects exist in Halvian? Isyan has perfect, terminative/cessative, habitual, [imperfect tense (marked like an aspect, but -s is only found on past conjugations)], and the basic conjugations which carry perfective and imperfective lexical aspects (the present = present continual/progressive/simple; past = any action of the past; future = any action that will be done at a later date).

Crap, I should stop before I turn this into a talk on Isyan verbs :P

Btw, does Mentilliath mean anything? I feel like you've told us the origins, but I can't find anything anywhere on the forum :|

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-06-23, 5:42

Well, that's a lot more aspects than I have :p There are four aspects in Halvian, but only three of them are explicitly marked and only in the past.

The imperfective, the perfective, the perfect, and the habitual.

The tense-aspect combinations (I just call them “tenses”) are as follows:

1. Present - the present is sort of seen as inherently imperfective and thus doesn’t distinguish between imperfective and perfective.
2. Past imperfective = Imperfect - this tense can also express habitual action. Context determines if a habitual “used to” or “would” is the appropriate translation.
3. Past perfective = Aorist - this is not really a true aorist like Greek. The Halvian aorist is purely a perfective (simple) past. There are no aorist participles.
4. Future - I haven't decided to distinguish imperfective vs. perfective in the future yet. I may do so at some point.
5. Present perfect = Perfect*
6. Past perfect = Pluperfect
7. Future perfect

*The perfect tenses can also function as statives. Thus menáttami “I become angry” in the Perfect, memnáttatha, can be translated as “I have become angry” or simply, “I am angry”.

Koko wrote:Btw, does Mentilliath mean anything? I feel like you've told us the origins, but I can't find anything anywhere on the forum :|


Yeah, Mentilliath is a Halvian surname. -iath is an adjectival suffix, but here has come to be patronymic, thus it means "son of Mentila". The name Mentíla is derived from the word ménta, which means "hill". The Mentilliaths (Mentilliáthes) are from the hills around the capital city and have produced several Halvian kings. ;)

I probably mentioned once that Halvian surnames tend to have feminine forms, like in Russian. So if you're a female member of the Mentilliath family, your surname would be Mentilliáha.
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: My conlang so far: Halvian

Postby Koko » 2015-06-23, 6:31

That's cool. I would have Isyan last names based on the family's origins, but instead, they are based on the patron god(dess) of the family. There's plenty of surnames that are representative of qualities/ideas/emotions the family [once] associated closely with.

If I had to choose an Isyan last name to go with Koko (lit. of bone), I'd say Nikueu (lit. to Darkness). I like the colour black :whistle: And dark chocolate. Maybe even Nikuie (dual dative), because it shows my liking of two dark things.

Great thing about Isyan, is that since the language has absolutely no word that specifies a gender or even sex (that's not to say they don't contrast different genitalia), the surname doesn't change for sons or daughters.

What's the naming convention in Halvian? First name - last name? The order doesn't matter in Isyan: no name that symbolizes a patron deity can be a first name and if a name derived from a word and is in the dative or ablative case, it is a last name ;)


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