Isyan

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Koko
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Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-12, 6:51

So, I thought I'd make a thread on Isyan. Originally, I was going to do one on its conjugation, but I thought that if I have to ask for feedback on another aspect of the language, I should just make this a general thread (plus, I post way too much on the general discussion thread). Here we go: (it's going to be a little more for me, kind of like how some people make threads for their language progress)

Is it cheaty to use an agglutinative conjugation system? I, personally, think so because there's no challenge.

I'm liking the aspects being agglutinative, but I think I should change how to form the subjunctive (maybe conditional, too).

The old way was to add -n to all forms: kan (that I were), kuan (that you were), kion (that he/she/it were), etc…

But once it comes to aspects on the verb, it begins to look ugly and, unlike Japanese (has a similar system), it doesn't work for Isyan.

I'm thinking that I have one set of endings for the indicative, one for the subjunctive (personal endings). This way it's less clumped.

Here's the indicative endings (present;past;future): (sorry for no table, I don't know how)

I— a; o; u
We+— ia; oi; ie
Wex— iav; oi; ui
You— ua; uo; ua
You2— ya; ui; uie
You all— yav; ui; uav
You (formal)— i; it; iu
You2 (" ")— ija; iti; iye
You all (" ")— iju; iti; iui
He— io; oe; e
Them2— iv; oen; ei
They all— ijo; oen; av (difference between oen as singular subjunctive and as third person plural past is through context (currently))

I'm thinking, since the indicative is just the endings for nominative, genitive and dative (present, past, future, respectively), I should make the subjunctive take the endings for acc, abl, and ine. But this would cause difficulties for the third person which doesn't take the declension endings.

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Re: Isyan

Postby abc_conlang_123 » 2014-09-12, 23:40

Are these the only informations about isyan on the whole forum ?
Native : [flag=]it[/flag] [flag=]egl[/flag] Fluent : [flag=]en[/flag] A2 : [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Curious about : [flag=]fi[/flag] [flag=]ja[/flag]

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-12, 23:47

Well, it's like notes that I make and perhaps inquiries that I have for myself in order to preserve paper :) If I have an insignificant thought that will only take one line, I might as well just have it on a forum so that, should people want to give feedback, they can and help grow my language and make it a little more naturalistic (it's meant to be spoken by human beings in a different universe).

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-15, 0:23

Figured it out! (pres; past; fut)

Sa: -e; ö; uë
Sia: -eï; us; ös
Sav: -iav; us; usa
Nua: -ue; uye; uïe
Nuia: -uei; use; uso
Nuav: -uav; use; ùsa
Noja: -e; ö; uë
Nojia: -eï; us; ös
Nojav: -iav; us; usa
Poesa: -oe; oë; uë
Poesia: -iv; ön; ei
Poesav: -ijo; ön; av

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-09-28, 7:18

So lately I've been trying to work on my stress and how it can be noticed (by loudness, pitch, length, what?). I was indecisive with placement as well. I tried final, but what placement I had before made the polysyllabic words sound odd.

Just when I posted the last "Person after me" post I decided on it.

On disyllabic words, the stress is final and should it end in a vowel, this is long. Eg, sogua /soˈgwɑː/- person; soguan /soˈgwɑn/- the person

Polysyllabic words usually have stress on second or third syllable. Trisyllabics have penultimate and quad-syllabics have antepenultimate (always). If the vowel is before a voiced consonant it has the potential to become half-long (similar to the /s/ which is usually voiced unpredictably), but (unlike the /s/) this depends on the speaker and where they come from: Verosi, Icgan and Ahtegic Isyan speakers are more likely to lengthen the vowel fully; while Ironyans and Hesians well have a more consistent half-length; and Dorsai-Isyans, Jine, Optrazi, and Prajsans are likely to retain short vowels no matter where.

If a stressed vowel directly precedes another vowel (as in vaiDEa) the vowel is long (so [vaɪˈdeːɑ]).

Notes on vowel allophony:

-/ɪ/ succeeded by a vowel is [i]; can also occur before /j/ (like in siya /siˈjɑː/)
-/ɛ/ preceding a vowel is risen to [e]
-/ɑ/ has the potentiality to be realized as [ä] by older speakers and in short-stressed positions (the latter more dependent upon the speakers mother language: Verosi, Prajsans and Optrazi tend to do this)
-/ʊ/ (<ù>) is in decline and is merging with stressed /œ/ and unstressed /ɪ/ (a full merging is estimated to be hundreds of years from now); some dialects have already lost it, replacing it with /œ/ or /u/. This isn't too big a deal, as few words contrast it with /œ/ and /ɪ/.
-I've mentioned before that <ö> has the possibility of being pronounced /œ, ø, y, ʏ, ɵ, ɞ/ phoneme associated with it depending on region and dialect (even though the fact that it really only has phonemic /œ/ but no /y/ is a little less naturalistic, I will accept this)
-there's no interesting facts about <o> except it becomes [w] before a vowel (unlike <u> which one could say represents /u/ as well as /w/)

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-10-03, 6:38

Ideas For Isyan!!!!


-injunctive mood which shows intent: I intend to/will go to school.- Listogu esou. (? Remember how this interested you)

-more cultural, hard to translate words (like a word for the feeling of tranquility in a dream-like state)

-more interesting structures and synonyms

-more -isms (Hesianism, for example, could be something like "mnaurite:" garden, rather than "vraidia")

-work more on sound changes and develop more Isyan languages to give an example of a Proto-lang

-pick an accent to use actively (then work on it)

-at least be able to speak what you know of Welsh

•practise Isyan like you practise your Cymraeg (but better at writing)

-build a bigger vocabulary: words for parallel and other terms of position (more useful than you think Jon)

-shortforms of words: instead of besinejan, how about bisejan or beinejan (never shorten -ejan)

-make writing rules that resemble the spoken language

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-11-19, 7:40

Injunctive? 'My. Isms? Imyartu. Shortforms? Det. Writing rules to resemble spoken language? It's the only logical thing to do!


The Hesian dialect is coming great. It resembles the "standard" more closely than the Ironyan dialect, which I originally intended to be the closest n.n, silly me. I must really love the Hesian peninsula, dialect, and accent!

Which sounds better: jermbusi [dʒɛrmˈbusi, -zi] dutauva [duˈtʰaʊvɑ]/duntauva [dunˈtaʊva]? I'm kind of liking the second two but I don't know. Which works best for "chocolate?"

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2014-12-14, 0:34

Isyan is undergoing a reform. Currently, my stress problem is being fixed, words are being changed to look and sound better, and grammar may also have a change.

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-02-07, 20:00

Last night I was going through my MIS-EN word list and began to see that a group of verbs ended with -mejan, another began with im-/iC- and a last with as-/aC-. I was looking for affixes that I could add to another list of important affixes, so that's why these are all affixes.

It would be helpful if anyone could find any relation between these words, or if my mind was just making connections that aren't there. When I noticed this, the English equivalents had appeared to share some resemblance but I couldn't put a finger on it.

-mejan
Povvysamejan— to push
Lumejan— to allow
Hokeimejan— to defeat
Immejan— pick up, lift
Leximejan—to answer
Elsmejan— to ask
Gademejan— teach
Escimejan— begin
(Vupomyejan— to slip and fall)

im-
Immejan— to pick up
Imblejan— to mask, overwrite
Imprajja— imbecile
Illugejan—to slip, slide
Issa— former

as-
Addinejan— to linger, stay (behind)
Assijeyan— to go to bed, go to sleep, lay down
Ascutejan— to simmer, sweat
Abbejan— to get (as in become, make becoming)


Reason vupomyejan is in brackets is because -yejan is just a variation of the -ejan verb infinitive ending. I don't know if this would exclude it or not: when it comes after -k-, it means that the -k- remains rather than being palatalized (-c-).

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-03-24, 3:24

Working on Celdovin (posting on it and also posting on Mentilliath's thread) made me realize how little I've actually shown of Isyan despite my pride in it :lol: . So, here's my "first" declension nouns (unlike Celdovin, I don't need to look at notes :D ).

casesingulardualplural
nomaiaav
genoii
datuieui
acceeiav
ablueuseusi
ineueusousa


There are various other declensions, each are small: those ending in -e amount only to about ten. The -n's are even less so. Every other declension but the one in the table has only singular and/or plural. Those ending in -i, -y, -s and -j only have singular (though the verb could determine any other number); the -oi nouns can only be dual (and make the smallest declension).

The second biggest declension is the -o (which can also end in in -a in nominative). This declension is dedicated to guevav (non-"living" things) which are innumerable, and so can only be singular or plural. This is next.


Maybe I'll get into Halvisyan after you guys see all declensions :partyhat: .


Ps: the partyhat emoticon is apparently my favourite. :partyhat: :partyhat: :partyhat:

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-03-26, 2:38

how little I've actually shown of Isyan despite my pride in it :lol: .

I still can't get over this. I mean, with so much pride as I've in Isyan, it seems really odd how I'd post more of Celdovin's morphology, and that is only a week old.

Anyways, I'm not actually done with -a. Here's some subtypes.

casesingulardualplural
nomjajiajav
genjojiji
datjujieji
accjejeijav
abljujusejusi
inejejusojusa


-ya
casesingulardualplural
nomyaiayav
genyoii
datyuieyuï
accyeyeiyav
ablyuëyuseyusi
ineyuëyusoyusa

(every uë/uï is pronounced /uwe/ or /uwi/)

-ia
casesingulardualplural
nomiai(y)aiav
genioii
datiuieiui
accieeiiav
abliueiuseiusi
ineiueiusoiusa


-ua
casesingulardualplural
nomuauiauav
genuouiui
datuuie
accueyeiyav
abluseusi
ineusousa


These are common subtypes. (there's also -oa, -ra, and -iya)

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-03-29, 4:26

I'd like to share something interesting (I think) that I've done with Isyan.

Nominalized Sentences ^^

In Isyan it's possible to apply an adjective to a whole sentence/clause. Sometimes, this adjective has an implied adverbial meaning, but nonetheless, in Isyan grammar, an adjective can only come after unless predicative.

Examine:

«Mennitar sa copilnu oa hev kio.»
[color= gray]sudden 1-s.NOM sky-s.DAT see-1s.PRES force-PASS.PART be-3s.PRES[/color]
— (I interpret it thus) My being forced to look at the sky is sudden.

But then there is Köndal:

«Sa copilnu oa vil dieve oa menar.»
— My mind cloudy, I look at the sky and see the sun.

Menar is the adjective "red." To say "vùni menar kio." means you're having trouble remembering things, so your head is cloudy. Köndal is famous for stretching the rules of grammar, and this open adjective is just a shortening of "quet o vùni menar(tu)."


I actually don't know what to call this phenomenon, but yeah. There you go ^^
Last edited by Koko on 2015-05-25, 6:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-04-13, 3:30

I'm thinking of getting rid of z. I hardly use it and where I do have it, I kinda don't like it. Plus, the letter, even if it's just a romanization, is not my favourite. S is so much better. But I don't know with what letter to replace it. I'm think v and j, and s. So indecisive.

I kinda also want to rid Isyan of q. I love the letter, but then if I really want to keep to transliteration rules, I'd have to write kua (you are) as qua, which when I think about it, is exclusive or and when used with o "neither." That doesn't work for me because then it doesn't show any resemblance to the other forms of to be: ka, ke, ki, ku, kijo, koi, et al.

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Re: Isyan

Postby Mentilliath » 2015-04-13, 5:50

Good to see our conlangs are living languages. I was starting to think I was being way too finicky in getting rid of /f/ in Halvian, but it made sense to me.

I agree <z> isn't the best looking letter (I can't help but see it as a "angular s"). But I think /z/ is an underrated sound personally.

Do you use <qu> for /kʷ/? In Hesternese, I use /q/ alone for that sound because I don't usually like the idea of one letter that always needs another letter present. But I know I've seen people on this site say that they hated seeing <q> without <u> lol. I use <qu> in Halvian because I want to be a parallel with <gu>. So I guess parallels override the desire to not have letters always accompanied by another letter. Interesting how my OCD works...
Primary Conlang: Halvian
Additional conlangs: Hesternese (Aikedenejo), Galsaic (sister language of Halvian), and Ogygian (unrelated to the others.

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Re: Isyan

Postby voron » 2015-04-13, 7:09

İsyan means rebellion in Turkish (originally this word comes from Arabic). Was it intentional?
http://tureng.com/search/isyan

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-04-13, 7:55

Mentilliath wrote:Good to see our conlangs are living languages. I was starting to think I was being way too finicky in getting rid of /f/ in Halvian, but it made sense to me.
I think it's reasonable. I imagine the environments /f/ had been in were similar to where /v/ is, right? So permanent voicing shouldn't be so drastic.

I agree <z> isn't the best looking letter (I can't help but see it as a "angular s"). But I think /z/ is an underrated sound personally.
I like the sound: it's soft and pleasant. In Isyan it is a possible intervocalic allophone of /s/ and in the digraph <sj> it adds to a lenited j to represent /ʒː/.

Do you use <qu> for /kʷ/? In Hesternese, I use /q/ alone for that sound because I don't usually like the idea of one letter that always needs another letter present. But I know I've seen people on this site say that they hated seeing <q> without <u> lol. I use <qu> in Halvian because I want to be a parallel with <gu>. So I guess parallels override the desire to not have letters always accompanied by another letter. Interesting how my OCD works...

I formally used it for the cluster /kw/, similarly <gu> was (still is) /gw/. But I decided to change it to <ku>. At least I make a use of my all time favourite letter in Celdovin for my all time favourite consonant /ħ/.

voron wrote:İsyan means rebellion in Turkish (originally this word comes from Arabic). Was it intentional?
http://tureng.com/search/isyan

I don't know Turkish :lol: . The name is derived from the words "isba" meaning land, and "siya" which is an Isyan warrior who trains to fight for their country, home and people, and who are so well-trained in fact that there is no documented loss (and the Isyans are not too keen on lying). Not even documents from those they fought with tell of any win. So isba + siya = Isya (the country and continent). In Isyan, the name of the country often is used for the language and less commonly a person. What's funny, is that "isyan" in Isyan is "the Isya" because -n is the definite article suffix (which I didn't know was a suffix used in Icelandic).

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-04-21, 0:54

I've decided to change all the other declensions from singular(-plural) exclusive to have all numbers. Luckily I've yet to show those, so no edits need to be done ^-^

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-04-21, 6:08

Old alphabet: c th a v b k d e f h i l m n g p o r s t y u j z x qu

New alphabet: c th* a v b k d e f i h l m n g p o r s t y u j (digraphs/clusters: ks ku ng ny gu sc sj ts) *considered a letter as with many languages and their alphabets

R allophony

Generally /r/, but before the consonants /t, d, n/ it often rhoticises the preceding vowel (this may apply to some rs and rarely rj or rc). This rhoticisation is actually phonemic, as it distinguishes adjectives derived from nouns from verbs in the present interrogative mood derived from nouns. Such is the difference between giltar /ˈgɪltɑ˞/ (Do I forget?) and giltar /gɪlˈtɑr/ (forgetful).

Giltar (do I forget?) is actually used quite a bit as a filler, kinda like uh, let's see, even used for "Where'd I put it?" and other questions.

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Re: Isyan

Postby Koko » 2015-04-22, 5:24

abc_conlang_123 wrote:Are these the only informations about isyan on the whole forum ?

Lol, I answered your question way weird ^^ Must've misinterpreted.

But, yes. Though I have made some notes before this thread opened on Isyan, they were small and very dispersed. So this is also the only collection, essentially.

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Re: Isyan

Postby Dormouse559 » 2015-04-27, 5:46

Koko wrote:This rhoticisation is actually phonemic, as it distinguishes adjectives derived from nouns from verbs in the present interrogative mood derived from nouns. Such is the difference between giltar /ˈgɪltɑ˞/ (Do I forget?) and giltar /gɪlˈtɑr/ (forgetful).
Those words don't form a minimal pair because they also differ in stress (implied to be phonemic by the slashes), so we can't conclude anything about the phonemicity of r-coloring based on them. In fact, a more convincing minimal pair wouldn't involve /r/ either. It would be /ˈgɪltɑ˞/ vs. /ˈgɪltɑ/. R-coloring is a suprasegmental like nasalization or stress, so it generally doesn't contrast with segments like /r/.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.


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