Unknown Grammatical Cases.

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Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-16, 15:55

linguoboy wrote:Remember that gender is fundamentally about agreement. Words don't have to have distinct declensions; what matters is what forms other words (adjectives, pronouns, determiners, verbs, etc.) take in order to indicate modification or reference.


You might be right, but your advice can't work in my conlang. If I can't have a fixed gender suffix for Nominative, it just can't work. With 34 Case declensions apart from Nominative, and all other morfological declensions it is impossible.
And well, for luck I could "fix again" my language and I'm doing great and successful changes.
Thanks.

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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby linguoboy » 2018-08-16, 16:03

Kota-Ebau wrote:You might be right, but your advice can't work in my conlang. If I can't have a fixed gender suffix for Nominative, it just can't work.

Why not?
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Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-17, 21:32

linguoboy wrote:Why not?

Because I easely mix up and... Well, there's also another reason:
Ah, first: I've modified lots of things in my conlang since
two days ago (read next paragraph). So if you notice there are four genders now, it's just that I take this thing of creating a conlang as a kind of self-entertainment (J.R.R. Tolkien is one of my idols!).
For example, "Kverke", "Kverki" and "Kverkö", they all mean "Writer" in the three Animated Genders (that are used for humans (Male and Female (well they can be also used while talking about pets)) and for animals (Common (yes I thought your advice about that gender was great)(an also for a human if you don't know their gender (like in a group of people in which there are girls and boys, the simple plural would use that gender)))). But if we set the word in the last gender (the Objectal gender, for non-animated nouns (objects and plants (well, that's a kind of pointview of animacy, isn't it?))) it's meaning becomes "Writing". Summarized: depending on the gender you set a word, you obtain a different meaning. And heteronyms don't exist: for example, Father=Enucke. Mother=Enucki.

Oh, and since I posted the message about the "conlang disaster" I've changed lots of things (e.g.: the simple and partitive plural declensions (and I've added the dual plural) the adjectival grade declensions, the cases even, the personal pronouns, the way verbs conjugate and tense, adverbial declensions, I've added 2 more genders and a different gender criteria (so now I've got 4 genders)... Just everything. And now my conlang has "Hösŧrjarnkäita" as endonym (in English it would be... Hosthrish...? (from Hosthria (kind of fictional country))). But I have no idea of which name I should give it (my first or second or full name? No, I hate my whole name. A friend's name? A celebrity's name? The first could be, the second is impossible (to me)), so its name it's expected to suffer even more and many changes until I get another ideas.

And I also need another grammatical case for the preposition "during", please. Thanks.

Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-18, 19:47

Name changed! Now my conlang will be called Kvötjarnkäita (in English: Kevotish).
I know is the fifth time I change it's name but... It's just creativity.

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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Dormouse559 » 2018-08-18, 20:47

I gather from your post that your conlang uses gender for derivation, but that still doesn't require you to have distinct noun endings. The gender information just has to be communicated somehow, which might be through an agreement target. For example, if a noun's gender isn't clear from its form, but articles do mark gender, the articles might become near-obligatory. You of course don't have to implement that idea, but it's important to realize how flexibiltiy language because if you go around dismissing things as impossible, you'll miss out on some exciting possibilities.
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Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-18, 21:36

Dormouse559 wrote:You of course don't have to implement that idea, but it's important to realize how flexibiltiy language because if you go around dismissing things as impossible, you'll miss out on some exciting possibilities.

What kind of exiting possibilities? To have heteronyms in my conlang? The second last version of it had heteronyms because there were only two genders (and I have to say that in that version to set a word on its gender was always compulsory too). I know why everyone suggest me to forget about setting always a word on its gender in my conlang: to create a natural conlang, isn't it? It's important to create a conlang the most natural as possible, I know, but just imagine this: I've got 4 different declensions for adjectives, 9 distinct declensions for my 38 grammatical cases (well, my 37 cases, I still need a case for the English preposition "during" (if you know which case it is, please tell me)), 3 plurals, a distinct suffix for the 11 adverbial categories, 1 declension for all indefinite determinants, 56 forms of verbal tense (in total between the three voices (Active, Passive and Imperative)) and the infinitive, and some exclusive declensions for distinct particles and expressions. In total we have more or less 85 different declensions, and most of them are really odd to each other, and... Do you think I've got the luck of being able to just leave nouns without a fixed declension? I'm sorry but I can't do that. Imagine: "Mjoǯeckö" means Cat. The "-ö" ending is the Common gender, used for animals and for talking about someone(s) whose name(s) you don't know. Imagine I follow your advice and I say "Mjoǯeck".
And you might be saying "Why not?". Well, I can't do that because the "-ck" suffix is the Pacientive Case.
I can give you lots of more examples. It happens almost always you remove the gender ending.
Well, thanks.

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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Dormouse559 » 2018-08-19, 3:22

Kota-Ebau wrote:What kind of exiting possibilities? To have heteronyms in my conlang? The second last version of it had heteronyms because there were only two genders (and I have to say that in that version to set a word on its gender was always compulsory too). I know why everyone suggest me to forget about setting always a word on its gender in my conlang: to create a natural conlang, isn't it?

Well, no. I just thought it was interesting.

Kota-Ebau wrote:It's important to create a conlang the most natural as possible, I know

No to that, too. I personally like making naturalistic conlangs, but natualism isn't the end-all-be-all of conlanging. I tell people when they ask that they should make a conlang that meets their goals, whether those be to have a language indistinguishable from a natural one or as strange and utterly alien as they can manage. Like I said above, you don't have to do anything I suggest. I just took exception to the idea of a feature in a conlang being "impossible".

Kota-Ebau wrote:Do you think I've got the luck of being able to just leave nouns without a fixed declension?

Yes, you do have that luck. As I said, other words, the articles in particular, can take the semantic load you're currently putting on the noun endings. You don't have to change anything if you don't want to, but you certainly can.

Kota-Ebau wrote:I still need a case for the English preposition "during" (if you know which case it is, please tell me))

I would if I could, but I don't know. To be clear, you already have the case; you just don't have a Latinate name for it.
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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-08-19, 4:47

Dormouse559 wrote:
Kota-Ebau wrote:I still need a case for the English preposition "during" (if you know which case it is, please tell me))

I would if I could, but I don't know. To be clear, you already have the case; you just don't have a Latinate name for it.


It depends on how you intend to use it, and since (as far as I know :?: :?: ) there aren't any languages that use a case in precisely the same way, it will be an invented Latin-based word. So you could invent your own. These are some words I know of but I'm not sure if they fit your intentions:
Simultaneitive :?: (possibly for things that happen at the same time, i.e., "I was sick during [at the same time as] the storm")
Decursive :?: (possibly for things that happen over a course of time, i.e. "during [over the course of] the past month")
Durative or Quandial (or Quamdial) :?: (possibly for things that continue for a duration of time)
I am not sure about any of these names and most of them exist already (in linguistics and botany and elsewhere) with slightly different meanings.
But this is why I suggested earlier that you use words in your own conlang instead. I am not giving you the names of existing grammatical cases; I'm basically making up names for you (and/or modifying existing words to take on the meanings you need), and as for as I know that's what Linguoboy did earlier in answer to your questions about other cases. Durative case does exist, but it has to do with duration, not "during".
Your unique cases are going to be named with (mostly) invented words anyway, or with existing words that take on new meanings for your purposes, so you can name them as you wish, using either Latin roots or roots from your own conlang or descriptive phrases.

Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-19, 8:12

Kota-Ebau wrote:In total we have more or less 85 different declensions, and most of them are really odd to each other, and... Do you think I've got the luck of being able to just leave nouns without a fixed declension? I'm sorry but I can't do that.


Dormouse559, did you read this?

Kota-Ebau wrote:Imagine: "Mjoǯeckö" means Cat. The "-ö" ending is the Common gender, used for animals and for talking about someone(s) whose name(s) you don't know. Imagine I follow your advice and I say "Mjoǯeck". And you might be saying "Why not?". Well, I can't do that because the "-ck" suffix is the Pacientive Case.
I can give you lots of more examples. It happens almost always when you remove the gender ending.


Or this?
So if you read all this, you should already know why I must have a fixed gender to each word.
I think that's the only thing people doesn't like about Kvotish.
Ah, and thank you very much for the Latin based name of that case, Linguaphile.

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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby linguoboy » 2018-08-19, 14:17

Kota-Ebau wrote:Imagine: "Mjoǯeckö" means Cat. The "-ö" ending is the Common gender, used for animals and for talking about someone(s) whose name(s) you don't know. Imagine I follow your advice and I say "Mjoǯeck". And you might be saying "Why not?". Well, I can't do that because the "-ck" suffix is the Pacientive Case.
I can give you lots of more examples. It happens almost always when you remove the gender ending.

Nu?

I honestly don't understand the point you're trying to make with this example. This is the default in languages; having explicit gender marking after an oblique case ending is the exceptional choice.

If the common gender is always used for animals, what need is there to indicate it by any sort of ending at all? Explicit gender marking is only really useful in languages where noun gender is arbitrary and can't be determined by any sort of semantic rule.

It's your language and it's fine if you want to handle gender this way. But Dormouse is correct: It's false to claim that you must use distinct endings to explicitly indicate noun gender. That's a choice you're making and it ignores other equally valid possibilities.
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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Dormouse559 » 2018-08-19, 16:10

Kota-Ebau wrote:Dormouse559, did you read this?

Yes, I’ve read all your posts. I hope I’ve never given the impression that I ever post in bad faith. I’m trying to have an enjoyable discussion on conlangs.

Kota-Ebau wrote:So if you read all this, you should already know why I must have a fixed gender to each word.
I think that's the only thing people doesn't like about Kvotish.

For my part, I never said I don’t like that feature. And frankly, it doesn’t matter what I think. If you want your conlang to have a certain trait, then make it so. It distresses me that you think you must give nouns distinct gender endings when that’s not true. I’m saying you have the freedom of choice here.
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Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-08-19, 16:12

Kota-Ebau wrote:Imagine: "Mjoǯeckö" means Cat. The "-ö" ending is the Common gender, used for animals and for talking about someone(s) whose name(s) you don't know. Imagine I follow your advice and I say "Mjoǯeck". And you might be saying "Why not?". Well, I can't do that because the "-ck" suffix is the Pacientive Case.
I can give you lots of more examples. It happens almost always when you remove the gender ending.


If I understand the problem correctly:

Mjoǯeckö is cat (mjoǯeck cat + ö common gender)
You don't want to remove ö common gender and make it mjoǯeck cat because
mjoǯeck cat would look like mjoǯe ? + ck pacientive case and, assuming you do have a word mjoǯe, it would therefore be ambiguous.
I can see your point (some natural languages with grammatical declinations do have lots of those types of situations and although context usually makes the meaning clear, they can seem especially confusing for people learning the language).

Estonian:

veeta: veeta (second infinitive of veetma "spend") = to spend
veeta: vee (genitive of vesi "water") + -ta (abessive case) = without water

soolast: soola- (genitive of sool "salt") + -st (elative case) = "from the salt"
soolast: soolas(e)- (genitive of soolane "briny, salty") + -t (partitive case) = "some briny, salty [thing]"

värvitud: värvi- (stem of värvima 'to color') + -tud (past participle) = "colored"
värvitud: värvi (genitive of värv 'color') + -tu (suffix: "without) + -d (plural marker) = "colorless" (plural)
:ohwell:

What I don't understand is why you feel you have to make the ending for mjoǯeck cat or other words in your conlang represent gender. It's fine to do that, but I don't see how it's required; it's not the only option. You could instead make a rule (for example) that all case endings must end in a consonant and all words without case endings must end in a vowel, or something like that. (Or, all case endings must end in any particular set of sounds while all words without case endings must end in a different particular set of sounds; it doesn't have to be consonants and vowels.)

Example 1:
without case ending: always ends in a vowel (-V)
with case ending: always ends in a consonant (-C)

Nominative case
mjoǯecke cat (it could be any vowel, I chose -e randomly; your existing -ö also works)
mjoǯe (not sure what it means)

Pacientive case
mjoǯeckeck cat
mjoǯeck (not sure what it means)


Example 2:
without case ending: always ends in a single consonant (-C) or a vowel (-V)
with case ending: always ends in two consonants (-CC)

Nominative case
mjoǯek (or: mjoǯec, mjoǯecki, mjoǯeckö, etc) cat
mjoǯe (not sure what it means)

Pacientive case
mjoǯekeck (or: mjoǯececk, mjoǯeckick, mjoǯecköck, etc) cat
mjoǯeck (not sure what it means)

And so on. You could use any vowels (I chose e randomly) and they don't have to indicate gender at all. Of course, if you want them to do, they can. But it's not necessary. So in other words, if avoiding the ambiguity of homonyms/heteronyms is your goal you can address that with the gendered endings you are describing, or with phonological rules (or, I'm sure, other ways as well).

Yet another option is to give nominative case, or whichever case currently has no ending, a fixed case ending of its own so that your language never has a word that is undeclined. My impression is that this is more or less what you have done, except that you have chosen to have that fixed ending also represent gender.

Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-20, 9:12

Dormouse559 wrote:
Kota-Ebau wrote:Dormouse559, did you read this?

Yes, I’ve read all your posts. I hope I’ve never given the impression that I ever post in bad faith. I’m trying to have an enjoyable discussion on conlangs.


Don't worry, you didn't give any impression, it's just me.

Dormouse559 wrote:
Kota-Ebau wrote:So if you read all this, you should already know why I must have a fixed gender to each word.
I think that's the only thing people doesn't like about Kvotish.

For my part, I never said I don’t like that feature. And frankly, it doesn’t matter what I think. If you want your conlang to have a certain trait, then make it so. It distresses me that you think you must give nouns distinct gender endings when that’s not true. I’m saying you have the freedom of choice here.


I may have freedom of choice in my conlang about the gender declension but I don't know how to implement other options... It just wouldn't work (well, it will never work no matter what I say here because no-one (including myself) speaks it properly) so I've just making up this conlang for nothing and... That's it, I don't know how to change my pointview about my conlang.

Kota-Ebau

Re: Unknown Grammatical Cases.

Postby Kota-Ebau » 2018-08-20, 15:13

Linguaphile wrote:
Kota-Ebau wrote:Imagine: "Mjoǯeckö" means Cat. The "-ö" ending is the Common gender, used for animals and for talking about someone(s) whose name(s) you don't know. Imagine I follow your advice and I say "Mjoǯeck". And you might be saying "Why not?". Well, I can't do that because the "-ck" suffix is the Pacientive Case.
I can give you lots of more examples. It happens almost always when you remove the gender ending.


If I understand the problem correctly:

Mjoǯeckö is cat (mjoǯeck cat + ö common gender)
You don't want to remove ö common gender and make it mjoǯeck cat because
mjoǯeck cat would look like mjoǯe ? + ck pacientive case and, assuming you do have a word mjoǯe, it would therefore be ambiguous.
I can see your point (some natural languages with grammatical declinations do have lots of those types of situations and although context usually makes the meaning clear, they can seem especially confusing for people learning the language).


You've found it. Mjoǯeck would be the subject in a Passive Sentence, but in a normal (Active) sentence, it would be Mjoǯe. I don't know what does that mean itself, but I know it's the Male Gender because it ends with an
-e.
So, from being an animal with the common gender it has became a man (well, "Man" itself is translated as "Hevrore"). But if you notice, both end with an -e, which is the male gender.

Linguaphile wrote:What I don't understand is why you feel you have to make the ending for mjoǯeck cat or other words in your conlang represent gender. It's fine to do that, but I don't see how it's required; it's not the only option.


Well, you all might be right about if it's necessary or not to set always the gender. Ah, and the Gender is the basic state in which a Noun is. That Nominative hasn't got a defined declension so it uses directly the gender ending doesn't mean that the gender is the Nominative case. The gender is the gender, and that's it. If you wan't to set a Noun (for example: Stana (day)) in some cases (for example the Prenuncial case) you have to set the gender anyway between the noun an the case declension:
Stana=day. 2(Ryn) Stanabefod=two days ago.
Skäna=mountain. Skänadärc=to(adlativo) the mountain.
Last edited by Kota-Ebau on 2018-08-20, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.


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