Europan

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linguoboy
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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-05, 18:54

What you're talking about is known in linguistics by the Eurocentric label "T-V distinction". Chinese actually does have a formal second-person pronoun, 您 nín, which like vous etc. was originally plural, but IME it's not much used nowadays even in non-Communist societies like Taiwan and Singapore. Traditionally, it had a huge range of nouns which could be used pronominally depending on the relationship between speaker and addressee and their respective roles in society. This system was drastically simplified with the destruction of the old feudal order but relics still survive.

Such systems are better preserved in neighbouring East and Southeast Asian languages like Japanese and Vietnamese. In fact, it's been argued that personal pronouns in Japanese represent what's called an open class, in contrast to Western languages, where they are closed classes (despite attempts to promote neologisms like "ze" and "hen"). These languages are also unlike other languages you know in that their verbs are not declined for person and they are generally pro-drop. It's not unusual for their speakers to use titles or kinship terms where speakers of European languages would expect personal pronouns.
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Zé do Rock
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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-03-05, 20:58

linguoboy wrote:What you're talking about is known in linguistics by the Eurocentric label "T-V distinction". Chinese actually does have a formal second-person pronoun, 您 nín, which like vous etc. was originally plural, but IME it's not much used nowadays even in non-Communist societies like Taiwan and Singapore. Traditionally, it had a huge range of nouns which could be used pronominally depending on the relationship between speaker and addressee and their respective roles in society. This system was drastically simplified with the destruction of the old feudal order but relics still survive.

Such systems are better preserved in neighbouring East and Southeast Asian languages like Japanese and Vietnamese. In fact, it's been argued that personal pronouns in Japanese represent what's called an open class, in contrast to Western languages, where they are closed classes (despite attempts to promote neologisms like "ze" and "hen"). These languages are also unlike other languages you know in that their verbs are not declined for person and they are generally pro-drop. It's not unusual for their speakers to use titles or kinship terms where speakers of European languages would expect personal pronouns.


(pt)(de)(fr)(es)eu só conecia 'ni' na chinan (eu num sa mais cum ki tom, mas tu deve saber...). jedenfalls gibt es kainen krasseren untashid als zwishen chinan und japaniano höflichkaitsformen. on achet kelca cosa dans una boutic, on di 'merci' e la chinis ri - porqué li sta dicendo gracias si no le fice ninun favor? y mesmo si les das un cigarrilo no van agradecer - probablement eyos agradecerie si fuera todo un paquet. da ham die komunisten ganze arbait gelaistet... incuantu nu japan tu dis brigadu na loj, i a resposta pru tu brigadu dura tantu tempu ki ainda num acabou cuandu tu ja saiu da loj i xegou na prócima skina...

en el article de wikipedia il dis ki la linguas de nord europa è pa pro-drop, ma la portugaliano de brasil l'è non plu, pars ke la conjugaciones è presc touta disaparee.

que é clases abertas y cerradas en este caso?

(en)i oanly new 'ni' in chinan (i doant no the tone ennymor, but u should no it...). ennyway thare is no starker difrence than between chinan and japaniano politeness forms. u by sumthing in a shop, u say 'xie xie' and the chinis laf - wi is he saying 'thank u' if i didnt do him enny favor? and eeven if u giv them a cigaret thay woant say thank u - probbably thay would if u gave them a hole package. the communists did a hel of a job thare... wile in japan u say thank u after havving baut sumthing in a shop, u leev the shop and reech the next corner, and the japaniano shop assistent isnt reddy with the anser to your 'thank u' yet...

in the wikipedia article thay say that the nord europano languajes arnt pro-drop, but brazil portugaliano isnt either, ennymor, becaus the conjugations hav neerly disapeerd.

wat ar open and closed classes in this case?

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Re: Europan

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-05, 21:33

Zé do Rock wrote:wat ar open and closed classes in this case?

From the article I linked to: "Word classes may be either open or closed. An open class is one that commonly accepts the addition of new words, while a closed class is one to which new items are very rarely added." Obviously, there's a continuum here, as the history of Brazilian Portuguese demonstrates.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-03-06, 16:46

(koy)i vizitou la link, nau i comprend - mersie!

(en)i visited the link, now i got it - thanks!

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-03-17, 10:22

Znex wrote:Pokkers, jeg er så jaloux. Jeg ønsker at jeg så let kunne lære andre sprog.
Verdammt, ich bin so eifersüchtig. Ich wünsche, dass ich andere Sprachen so einfach lernen könnte.
Zut, je suis tellement jaloux. Je souhaite que je puisse apprendre autres langues tellement facilement.
Droga, eu estou com tanta inveja. Eu queria que eu pudesse aprender outras línguas tão facilmente.
Dam, dw i mor eiddigeddus. Dymuna i ro'n i'n medru dysgu ieithoedd eraill mor hawdd.
Mac an donais, tha mi cho farmadach. 's àill leam gu robh urrainn dhomh ionnsachadh cànanan eile cho furasta.
Damn, I'm so jelly. I wish I could learn other languages so easily.


Scheisse, ich bin so neidisch. Ich wünschte, ich könnte andere sprachen so leicht lernen.
Zut, je suis tellement jaloux. Je voudrais bien apprendre des autres langues si facilement.
Pô, eu estou com tanta inveja. Eu gostaria de aprender outras línguas tao facilmente.

(pt)(de)(fr)(es)Tu ove 'droga' (nece sentidu) rarament en linguage colokial, mas frecuentemente na TV, porkee via de regla lis evit uzar palabra indecent. 'Pô' is irgendwi unanstendig wail es fon 'porra' kommt (das wort könnte auch im satz oben ferwendet werden), und 'porra' is aine ferkürzte form fon 'esporra', das slangwort für sperma.

'Scheisse' (merde) è plus utilisee ki 'verdammt', mas evidemen on lutilis pa super souven dan dee text oficial, porkee est oci indecen... y 'scheisse' es mas trivial, 'verdammt' se utiliza cuando se pasó una verdadera catástrofe.

'Eifersüchtig' tu ta cuandu tu xeg em caza mais sedu, na cama ta tu mulher i nel armáriu tu melhor amigu.

'...tao facilmente' - in umgangssprache würde ma sagen: 'tao facil'.

(en)In coloquial language, u rarely heer 'droga', but offen on TV, becaus as a rule thay avoid using indeecent werds. 'Pô' is sumhow indeecent becaus it cums from 'porra' (wich coud also be used in the sentence abuv), and porra is a shortend form of 'esporra', the slang werd for sperm.

'Scheisse' (shit) is mor offen used than 'verdammt', but obviusly u doant use it that offen in oficial texts, since it is indeecent, too... and 'scheisse' is mor trivvial, 'verdammt' is used wen a real catastrofe happend.

'Eifersüchtig' is wen u cum home erlier, and u find your wife in the bed and your best frend in the wardrobe.

'...tao facilmente' - in coloquial language u'd rather say 'tao facil'.

Tema 'pô':

-Eu nao tomo mais café. (i don't drink coffee ennymor)
-Porquê? (why?)
-Pa poupar o pó, pô! (to save the powder, why!)
pronunciation: /pa po'pau pO, po/

Tu pod ovir a pronunciacion ezact akie, u can heer the pronunciation heer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5_apIpXIY8&t=23s - Portugiesisch, die sprache für zahnlose/Portugase, the language for the toothless.

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Re: Europan

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-04-11, 8:00

(koy)Un interesale vord is la polski 'wihajster', ki signifik algu pro dat yu forgetou o sa no la nom, la 'dingding'. Dat veni de deutshe 'wie heisst er', wat is su nom.

In Brazil ai la vord 'sinuca'. "Eu tou numa sinuca' signifik 'Ik in a super difisile situacion, in a dilema'. La vord veni du pleyu 'sinuca', ki ven af el inglishe 'snooker'.

Un otre interesale vord is la nejugoslavski (e shqiperiano, makedoniano) 'kikiriki'. Dat sona as a chiki, o meibi a chico, mas is la vord pro kikiriki. E lu ven af el italiano 'chicchi' = gran, e 'ricchi' = rik, dus 'rico gran'.

(en)An intresting werd is polski 'wihajster', wich meens sumthing for wich u forgot or doant no the name, the 'watnot' or 'watsit'. The werd cums from deutshe 'wie heisst er', wats its name.

In Brazil thare is the werd 'sinuca'. 'Eu tou numa sinuca' meens 'I'm in a very dificult situation, in a dubblebind, cach 22'. The werd cums from the game 'sinuca', wich cums from inglishe 'snooker'.

Anuther intresting werd is the nejugoslavski (and shqiperiano, makedoniano) 'kikiriki'. It sounds as a chicken, or maybe a cok, but it is the werd for peenuts. And it cums from italiano 'chicchi' = grane, and 'ricchi' = rich, thus 'rich grane'.


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