Macedonian is not a language

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Woods
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Macedonian is not a language

Postby Woods » 2011-04-18, 22:28

gothwolf wrote:Well, I think Macedonians do not like us (they don't like Serbians, Greeks and Albanians, too) because they have been conquered many times. Personally I don't mind them. In fact I'm pro the Macedonian language because any nation deserves to have own language and culture although they're a great mixture of three or four Balkan nations...


I completely disagree with gothwolf. Macedonian is some sort of spoilt and worsened Bulgarian that doesn't make any sense. They've intentionally changed words in a way that is completely unnatural in language evolution, as well as replaced good Bulgarian words with new invented ones and ones taken from other languages. I even read somewhere that some Macedonians say about their "language" that they don't speak it and that's not their language. The other ones don't really care. Either way it's a sad story. It's really bad stuff and to me Macedonian is not a language and shouldn't exist. Many Macedonians understand Bulgarian and speak it fluently, while we don't care about Macedonian because it looks ridiculous. Yet we understand it perfectly if it's a written text, but we laugh at it.

Here's an article about it: http://www.macedoniainfo.com/books/kron ... 3_eng.html

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-04-18, 23:08

Here we go again...

Woods wrote:
I completely disagree with gothwolf. Macedonian is some sort of spoilt and worsened Bulgarian that doesn't make any sense.

Just as Catalan is some sort of spoiled and worsened Spanish that doesn't make sense?
Woods wrote: They've intentionally changed words in a way that is completely unnatural in language evolution, as well as replaced good Bulgarian words with new invented ones and ones taken from other languages.

http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1% ... 0%B8%D0%BA

What I understand is that Bulgarian language has borrowed a lot of Russian words, as you say, intentionally. They were borrowed only in the literary language and not in the spoken one. Sounds more unnatural than Macedonian borrowing Serbian words after almost a century of Serbian rule, doesn't it?
Woods wrote:I even read somewhere that some Macedonians say about their "language" that they don't speak it and that's not their language. The other ones don't really care.

I read somewhere that some Jews say that the Holocaust didn't happen.
Woods wrote:
Many Macedonians understand Bulgarian and speak it fluently, while we don't care about Macedonian because it looks ridiculous. Yet we understand it perfectly if it's a written text, but we laugh at it.

Good for you! You should laugh at them for being different! Who are they to be different from YOU!? How can they do such a thing!?

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby Cesare M. » 2011-07-10, 0:08

n/a
Last edited by Cesare M. on 2011-12-16, 23:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby gothwolf » 2011-07-14, 12:28

Cesare M. wrote:Извинете, но не мисля, че Ви е позволено да казвате това в този раздел. Темата изглежда твърде политическа, но това е само мое мнение...

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby hashi » 2011-07-15, 0:00

Woods wrote:
They've intentionally changed words in a way that is completely unnatural in language evolution, as well as replaced good Bulgarian words with new invented ones and ones taken from other languages.


You mean just like English? :pff: English before French rule is nearly unrecognisable for most.
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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby ufuk » 2011-10-12, 8:46

Anything that is used as means for communication is a language. Apart from that, macedonian has dictionaries that contains words as much as any languages does and it has its grammar studied more than most of the languages, thanks to the bulgarians who try to prove macedonian is some distorted bulgarian.

To speak out of layman's terms, Macedonian and Bulgarian is on a dialect continuum which means every village understands neighboring villages' speech but with distance, mutual intelligibility is lost. So, what you officially call "Bulgarian" or "Macedonian" are based on Eastern Bulgarian dialects and Central Macedonian dialects, therefore they are different, rather than distorted.

I'd include a paragraph about linguistic racism here, but I rather not.

I recently started to learn Macedonian and it is going to be my first slavic language, if I don't mention about my Polish failure. Peace out!

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby IvoCarog » 2011-10-12, 16:14

ufuk wrote:Anything that is used as means for communication is a language.


of course it is :lol: but i think what Woods actually ment was that the language spoken in Macedonia shouldn't be called "Macedonian" because it's basically a dialect of the Bulgarian language (from a linguistic point of view)...but then again as they say - "a language is a dialect with an army" :D so they might as well call it Macedonian...

ufuk wrote:To speak out of layman's terms, Macedonian and Bulgarian is on a dialect continuum which means every village understands neighboring villages' speech but with distance, mutual intelligibility is lost.


now that's just not true :hmm: first of all, mutual intelligibility is not lost - that's ridiculous considering the fact that even Bulgarian and Serbian are mutually intelligible (to some extent)...and second, in the case of Macedonian i can personally testify that there's almost perfect mutual inteligibillity - i'm from North-Central Bulgaria almost as far as it gets from Macedonia and the dialect that used to be spoken in my home region is quite different from the Macedonian dialects - and yet i watch Macedonian TV shows, read Macedonian newspapers etc. and understand 95% of it :) (and i have never ever learned Macedonian in my life :P )

now i'm no linguist but that should mean something :silly:

ufuk wrote:So, what you officially call "Bulgarian" or "Macedonian" are based on Eastern Bulgarian dialects and Central Macedonian dialects, therefore they are different, rather than distorted.


of course they are different :wink: the point here is that they are part of the same dialectal continuum :!:

*****

now don't get me wrong - i couldn't care less what language they would speak in Macedonia or what would they call it -> i just don't like it when people try to distort the truth :evil:


p.s. now let me ask you - is Turkish Cypriot a separate language or a dialect of the Turkish language? and how would you react if let's say the Turkish Cypriots decided they have nothing to do with Turkey, started calling their language Cypriot and asserting that it has nothing to do with the Turkish language whatsoever? - and if you even mention that their language has anything to do with Turkish -> you'd be accused of being a low-life imperialist or something like that :lol:

how would you feel in that situation? -> well there you go - now you understand the language issue b/w Bulgaria and Macedonia
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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby ufuk » 2011-10-13, 16:49

First of all, how do we distinguish a language from a dialect?

I don't care about the naming dispute either. It is obvious that some centuries ago these two languages were the same, like Azeri and Anatolian Turkish, but I do think they should be considered different languages now, rather than being dialects of each other. Because there are two separate orthographies and phonology. Besides, they are official languages of two separate governments.

To confess, I didn't know that they are that close to each other. But mutual intelligibility varies from person to person. I can figure out almost %60 of a kazakh text but most people wouldn't be able to do a %20.

Answer to your question: I don't distinguish between a language and a dialect. Cypriot Turkish and Anatolian Turkish were the same language before they went to Cyprus. Their official language is Turkish but what they speak is Cypriot Turkish, just like any other city here, they speak their own dialect or whatsoever. I don't really care.

My point is, -I assume that we all know racism is bad, of any kind- racism can't really be done on linguistic issues. I don't think we mean different things IvoCarog, neither I'm opposing you here.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby IvoCarog » 2011-10-14, 12:52

ufuk wrote:First of all, how do we distinguish a language from a dialect?


in our everyday life? -> a language is a "dialect with an army" :D in a linguistic sense? -> don't know...i'm no linguist but i guess there should be some criteria as to how different 2 dialects must be for them to be cponsidered different languages...however there doesn't seem to be an agreement on "Macedonian" -> many linguists (not only Bulgarian) consider it a dialect of Bulgarian BUT some linguists (not only Macedonian) consider it a separate language...all i can talk about is my personal experience...and i personally can not consider (on a linguistic level) a separate language one that i can almost perfectly well understand without ever studying it...on a political level, however, i have no problem whatsoever for it to be considered a separate language :)

ufuk wrote:I don't care about the naming dispute either. It is obvious that some centuries ago these two languages were the same, like Azeri and Anatolian Turkish, but I do think they should be considered different languages now, rather than being dialects of each other. Because there are two separate orthographies and phonology. Besides, they are official languages of two separate governments.


i completely agree...but i need to clarify that in the case of Bulgarian and Macedonian we are not even talking about centuries but about decades - not more than 5-6 decades ago they were practically the same language (with the normal dialectical differences of course) but since then Macedonian was (intentionally or not) developed in such a way as to differ from Standard Bulgarian as much as possible...

if the Macedonians were clever enough to admit that: Ok, so and so decades ago our languages were very sumilar or even the same HOWEVER today they are different enough to be considered separate languages -> then i'm sure most people in Bulgaria would accept Macedonian and even the linguists will turn a blind eye to the fact the the 2 languages are really not that different...however that leads to some political/historical implications for the country of Macedonia which...well it's all politics really - more precisely -> Balkan politics which is even worse :silly:

ufuk wrote:But mutual intelligibility varies from person to person. I can figure out almost %60 of a kazakh text but most people wouldn't be able to do a %20.


true...i've heard/read some Bulgarians say they can't understand Macedonian at all - of course they were probably exagerating but still...i guess it depends on education, common knowledge, basic intelligence etc. -> after all some Bulgarians have problems understanding even their own language (when they encounter a little bit more elaborate or more archaic language forms) :lol:

ufuk wrote:My point is, -I assume that we all know racism is bad, of any kind- racism can't really be done on linguistic issues. I don't think we mean different things IvoCarog, neither I'm opposing you here.


well in the case of Macedonian it's more of a case of nationalism than racism but yeah - i agree with you...Bulgarian nationalist wannabes refuse to admit that there's such a thing as "Macedonian language", Macedonian nationalist wannabes refuse to admit that the 2 languages were practically the same not so long ago...


p.s. btw ufuk you know what's funny? there's a Bulgarian dialect spoken in the Rhodope mountains that i can't understand a word of and it still is considered a Bulgarian dialect -> and then there's the Macedonian that i can understand almost perfectly but it is considered a separate language...go figure :mrgreen:
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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby language learner » 2011-10-15, 18:54

of course it is :lol: but i think what Woods actually ment was that the language spoken in Macedonia shouldn't be called "Macedonian" because it's basically a dialect of the Bulgarian language (from a linguistic point of view)...but then again as they say - "a language is a dialect with an army" :D so they might as well call it Macedonian...
здрасти Ангелус как са внациите? :)

ufuk wrote:First of all, how do we distinguish a language from a dialect?

Two different languages stand out with having different grammar and different pronounciation mostly.
As for the specific case - there is not a single phonological or a grammatical feature present in Macedonian which is not present in some of the various Bulgarian dialects. Triple definite article, soft к and г, syllabic р and л, verb ending -ам for 1st person singular present tense for all verbs - name it and I'll tell you in which Bulgarian dialects it is present.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-10-15, 19:02

There are Serbian dialects that have those features as well. Perhaps Macedonian is actually Serbian? Or we could go the other way round, all those Bulgarian dialects that you can name are actually Macedonian dialects.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby language learner » 2011-10-15, 19:35

Rumpetroll wrote:There are Serbian dialects that have those features as well.

Could you give a link to those dialects? Im curious how definite articles would work with cases.
Rumpetroll wrote:Perhaps Macedonian is actually Serbian?
Serbian has cases whereas Macedonian doesnt.

Rumpetroll wrote:Or we could go the other way round, all those Bulgarian dialects that you can name are actually Macedonian dialects.
If you think Macedonian is spoken as east where Plovdiv is(and if we count the substitution х-ф then even further east), then yes.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby IvoCarog » 2011-10-15, 20:32

имен wrote:здрасти Ангелус как са внациите? :)


nooo my cover is blown :? :para: веднага си признай кой си ти? :P
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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-10-16, 10:39

имен wrote:
Rumpetroll wrote:There are Serbian dialects that have those features as well.

Could you give a link to those dialects? Im curious how definite articles would work with cases.
Rumpetroll wrote:Perhaps Macedonian is actually Serbian?
Serbian has cases whereas Macedonian doesnt.

Rumpetroll wrote:Or we could go the other way round, all those Bulgarian dialects that you can name are actually Macedonian dialects.
If you think Macedonian is spoken as east where Plovdiv is(and if we count the substitution х-ф then even further east), then yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect
From Kruševac to Plovdiv = Macedonia.
Nice to see you agree.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby language learner » 2011-10-16, 10:46

Rumpetroll wrote:From Kruševac to Plovdiv = Macedonia.
Nice to see you agree.
lol :D start asking people from Blagoevgrad, Sandanski, Petrich etc. what language do they speak and you'll face the reality. :)
I have to admit I didnt expect that joke.
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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2011-10-16, 10:52

имен wrote:
Rumpetroll wrote:From Kruševac to Plovdiv = Macedonia.
Nice to see you agree.
lol :D start asking people from Blagoevgrad, Sandanski, Petrich etc. what language do they speak and you'll face the reality. :)
I have to admit I didnt expect that joke.

So it depends on what people say? But if people in Macedonia say that their language is Macedonian, not Bulgarian it doesn't matter?

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby language learner » 2011-10-16, 11:31

Rumpetroll wrote:
имен wrote:
Rumpetroll wrote:From Kruševac to Plovdiv = Macedonia.
Nice to see you agree.
lol :D start asking people from Blagoevgrad, Sandanski, Petrich etc. what language do they speak and you'll face the reality. :)
I have to admit I didnt expect that joke.

So it depends on what people say? But if people in Macedonia say that their language is Macedonian, not Bulgarian it doesn't matter?

Of course it does matter. They say they're speaking Macedonian and I'm fine with this.
Still, this doesnt change the fact that every phonological and grammatical feature Macedonian has is present in a Bulgarian dialect.

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby ufuk » 2011-10-16, 15:45

имен wrote:Two different languages stand out with having different grammar and different pronounciation mostly.
As for the specific case - there is not a single phonological or a grammatical feature present in Macedonian which is not present in some of the various Bulgarian dialects. Triple definite article, soft к and г, syllabic р and л, verb ending -ам for 1st person singular present tense for all verbs - name it and I'll tell you in which Bulgarian dialects it is present.


With this paragraph, you haven't really drawn a certain line between a language and a dialect. What is actually "different" ? My English and yours are different as well. And, of the linguistic view, there is no certain definition of a dialect. Bulgarian and Macedonian are both Ausbauspraches. Take a look at these definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbauspra ... achsprache

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby lothy » 2012-03-12, 0:34

i think you can't say that macedonian is not a real language, but it has been influenced by the serbian and bulgarian
is bulgarian the closest language to macedonian?? or serbian??!

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Re: Macedonian is not a language

Postby Arcane » 2012-03-12, 16:12

This omnipresent topic concerns national identity much more than anything else. Everyone has the right to define who they are. This is how it goes in many families in Macedonia:

Grandparents: We're Bulgarian.
Parents: We're Yugoslavian.
Children: We're Macedonian.

Who is right? All of them. However, the transition to Macedonian identity has been working its way through the previous generations. And as we all know, children are the future of a nation.

Bulgarians should acknowledge this development and stop looking down on Macedonians as if they were misguided souls. There is a Macedonian language, there is a Macedonian state (in fact Bulgaria was the first country to recognize its independence, so why do present-day Bulgarians whine?), there is a Macedonian identity. All three have the right to exist, develop, enjoy a respected status and thus enrich the cultural reality in the region.

Macedonians, on the other hand, should embrace their true history (not the version they teach them in schools) and acknowledge where they came from and who they are today. All these attempts for fabricating an ancient history and wasting money on gigantic monuments (instead of developing education and infrastructure) lead nowhere. Of course, it would be nice if Macedonians had more freedom to travel, so I can't blame them too much. When borders open, they would have no excuse for not seeing and understanding their neighbours. They'll find out none are as evil as their media describe them.


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