grammar sentences

[kman1]

I made the sentences below to get a feel of how different English tenses are expressed in Ukrainian. Please check what I've written for accuracy and please explain the ones I got wrong or didn't know.

1. I speak Spanish.
2. I used to play video games.
3. I ate a cookie 5 min. ago.
4. Last year he was ill.
5. When his parents built the house, he was ill.
6. At the beginning of this year he has been ill, now he is fine again.
7. He had broken a leg, therefore he couldn't come to school.
8. I’m reading a book now.
9. I was working while she was studying.
10. I was eating there (- let's say lunch) until I got to know that there were cockroaches in the kitchen. Then I left (immediately).

11. I had been lying there for 3 hrs. before I fell asleep.
12. You will have been eating for 10 min. when I finish.
13. He wants me to go home now.
14. I would buy more food but I’m full now.
15. You are baptized now. ‘passive’
16. You were baptized for 5 min. ‘passive’
17. The city was destroyed by the fire ‘passive’
18. I had been baptized 3 times by 2001.
19. I will have been baptized 6 times by 2002.
20. If he paid me more, I would stay. (2 possibilities for ‘if he paid me more’)*
21. We would have built the house, if we had had the money.*


In my Ukrainian translation, I only translated the verb portion of the sentences. that's the only part I'm concerned with. So remember when correcting what I wrote I only need the verbs NOT the whole sentence. (unless you feel translating the entire sentence would be better for everyone viewing the post)

- я говорю
- я грав
- їсв
- він був хворий
- будували, був хворий
- був, єсть хороший
- ламався його ногу, не могв іти
- читаю
- я працював, вивчала
- я їсв, дізнався кого у кухні таргани, я покидав
- я лежав там, перед я заснув
- ти їсеш, коли довершю
- він хотіє кого ію дімові
- я би купував, але я бую повний
- ти будеш хрестетий \ хрестений
- ти був хрестетий \ хрестений
- був знищуватий
- я був хрестеий
- я буду хрестетий
- якщо він платив мені, я буду побув
- ми були будував діму якщо у нам гроші

Thanks!

[RCA]

I translated the whole sentences because it is crucial to see the verbs in a context upon which they may depend very much (furthermore, sometimes it is not possible to translate the verbs letterally as you did). However, I had some difficulty in translating certain parts because some of the English sentences didn’t provide enough information to let me choose the best-fitting verb.

1. Я розмовляю іспанською.
2. Раніше я грав у відео-ігри.
3. Я з’їв тістечко 5 хвилин тому.
4. Минулого року він хворів.
5. Коли його батьки збудували будинок, він хворів.
6. На початку року він (за)хворів, але зараз він знову почувається добре. (Actually, I can hardly understand the exact meaning of Present Perfect in the sentence, so I translated it as if there were Past Indefinite in its place)
7. Він зламав ногу, тому він не зміг піти (не міг ходити) до школи. (The original sentence allows two different translations into Ukrainian)
8. Зараз я читаю книгу.
9. Я працював у той час, коли вона вчилася.
10. Я їв… (снідав…), аж поки не дізнався, що на кухні є таргани. Тоді я відразу ж пішов.
11. Я пролежав там 3 години, перш ніж заснути. (It is also possible to say лежав там протягом 3 годин and перш ніж я заснув or перш ніж я зміг заснути, each phrase rendering a slightly different meaning which could only have been guessed from the absent context)
12. Here the translation will be: Ти будеш їсти вже протягом 10 хвилин, коли я закінчу. There are some other grammatical ways to render the meaning of Future Perfect Continuous, but they don’t work with the verb ‘to eat’.
13. Він хоче, щоб я зараз пішов додому.
14. Я б купив більше їжі, але для неї вже немає місця.
15. Тепер ти хрещений.
16. Тебе хрестили 5 хвилин.
17. Місто було знищене вогнем.
18. Я був тричі хрещений до 2001 року.
Мене хрестили тричі до 2001 року.
19. Мене будуть хрестити 6 разів до 2002 року. (The verb ‘to baptize’ is a bit special in Ukrainian, because its perfective forms are rarely used and have special meanings, so I don’t use them here)
20. If he paid me more, I would stay. (2 possibilities for ‘if he paid me more’)
In Ukrainian there are at least 4 possibilities for the whole sentence (some context is needed to decide on which one to choose):
Якщо б він платив мені більше, я б залишився.
Якщо б він заплатив мені більше, я б залишився.
Якщо б він платив мені більше, я б залишався.
Якщо б він заплатив мені більше, я б залишався.
21. Ми б збудували будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.
Ми будували б будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.

[kman1]

Hi RCA, I went over the corrections you gave me and I have some questions about them:

1. Я розмовляю іспанською.

a. is ‘ою’ on ‘іспанською’ the adjective singular feminine instrumental case marker? b. why did you use the adjective ‘іспа́нський’ instead of the noun ‘іспа́нська мо́ва’ ?

2. Раніше я грав у відео-ігри.

a. what form of ‘гра’ is ‘ігри’ ? b. does ‘у’ mean ‘with’ here?

3. 3. Я з’їв тістечко 5 хвилин тому.

a. so i used the wrong verb here? з'їда́ти is imperfective and З'ЇСТИ is perfective of “to eat”, correct? b. why is the ‘c’ in ‘З'ЇСТИ’ is dropped here? c. why does ‘хвили́на’ lose an ‘-a’ here? d. what does ‘тому’ mean here?

4. Минулого року він хворів.

how did ‘рік’ change to ‘року’?

5. Коли його батьки збудували будинок, він хворів.

what case is ‘батьки’ in? (I think ‘батько’ is a 2nd declension neuter noun…)

6. На початку року він (за)хворів, але зараз він знову почувається добре.

a. what case is ‘початку’ in? (‘початок’ looks like a 2nd declension masculine noun) b. why does ‘почуватися’ conjugate like ‘почувається’? (I thought it should be ‘почуваeться’ since ‘a’ is a hard vowel)

7. Він зламав ногу, тому він не зміг піти (не міг ходити) до школи

a. meaning of ‘тому’ here? b. ‘змогти’ is an irregular verb because of ‘зміг’, correct?
c. why is ‘школи’ in the genitive case?

9. Я працював у той час, коли вона вчилася.

is ‘у той час’ optional?

10. Я їв… (снідав…), аж поки не дізнався, що на кухні є таргани. Тоді я відразу ж пішов.

a. ‘аж поки’ means ‘until’ ? b. why did you put ‘не’ in front of ‘дізнався’ ? (until I didn’t find out …?) c. what does ‘є’ mean? (my dictionary lists it as a form of ‘бу́ти’ but I can’t find a conjugation chart for ‘бу́ти’ anywhere…) d. what does the ‘ж’ after ‘відразу’ mean? e. how did you get ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ ?

11. Я пролежав там 3 години, перш ніж заснути

a. what does ‘ніж’ mean here? b. why is ‘заснути’ in the infinitive here?

12. Ти будеш їсти вже протягом 10 хвилин, коли я закінчу

a. what form is ‘будеш’ ? b. why does ‘-a’ drop on ‘хвилина’ ?

13. Він хоче, щоб я зараз пішов додому.

a. how did you get ‘хоче’ from ‘хотіти’ ? (this looks like patalisation, if so, what is the rule here? ) b. ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ <- what’s the patalisation rule here? AND why is ‘пішов’ past tense here?

14. Я б купив більше їжі, але для неї вже немає місця.

a. what does ‘б’ mean here? b. what case is ‘їжі’ ? (that doesn’t look like the accusative case…) c. what does ‘для неї’ mean? d. what does ‘місця’ mean? e. so ‘немає’ is the negative copula then?

15. Тепер ти хрещений.

no copula is needed in sentences like this?

16. Тебе хрестили 5 хвилин.

here is ‘Тебе’ representing the accusative or genitive case ?

17. Місто було знищене вогнем.

a. what case is ‘знищене’ in? b. how did you get ‘вогнем’ from ‘вогонь’ ?

19. Мене будуть хрестити 6 разів до 2002 року.

here ‘раз’ means ‘time(s)’ and ‘-ів’ is the plural accusative marker ??

21. Ми б збудували будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.
Ми будували б будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.

why does the verb change from ‘збудували’ to ‘будували’ when you change the position of ‘б’ ?

Thank you!!

[dorenda]

I'll try to answer, if I say something that's not true, please correct me.

1. Я розмовляю іспанською.

a. is ‘ою’ on ‘іспанською’ the adjective singular feminine instrumental case marker? b. why did you use the adjective ‘іспа́нський’ instead of the noun ‘іспа́нська мо́ва’ ?

a. yes
b. "іспанська" in "іспанська мова" is also an adjective. You could as well say я розмовляю іспанською мовою, but why would you, if it's understood anyway that you're speaking about the language?

2. Раніше я грав у відео-ігри.

a. what form of ‘гра’ is ‘ігри’ ? b. does ‘у’ mean ‘with’ here?

a. nominative plural EDIT: accusative plural.
b. у is not translated here, it's just how you say "to play (a game)" in Ukrainian: грати в відео-ігри, грати в футбол, грати в шахи, etc.

3. 3. Я з’їв тістечко 5 хвилин тому.

a. so i used the wrong verb here? з'їда́ти is imperfective and З'ЇСТИ is perfective of “to eat”, correct? b. why is the ‘c’ in ‘З'ЇСТИ’ is dropped here? c. why does ‘хвили́на’ lose an ‘-a’ here? d. what does ‘тому’ mean here?

a. You used an imperfective verb (and it should have been їв), so the sentence would mean, "I was eating a cookie 5 min. ago". З'їдати/з'їсти means eating the whole cookie, not leaving anything over.
b. Їсти and other verbs derived from it are "irregular" (along with дати and verbs in -вісти, and verbs derived from them). They are not too irregular, though, cause they decline pretty much in the same way. Їсти - їм, їси, їсть, їмо, їсте, їдять.
c. Because after numbers 5-20, 25-30, 35-40, etc. you have the thing that is counted in the genitive plural, which for first declension words like хвилина means that they have a 0-ending.
d. ago

4. Минулого року він хворів.

how did ‘рік’ change to ‘року’?

First an -у is added, because it's in the genitive case. This causes a vowel change that you can find in quite a large number of words. When the consonant following this і is not followed by an other letter, it is і, otherwise it changes to о or е(or є after a vowel): рік - року, ніж -ножа/ножниці, нога - ніг, він - вона/воно/вони, могти - міг, нести - ніс, Київ - Києва. (I'm not sure what the choice between о and е depends on, though.)

5. Коли його батьки збудували будинок, він хворів.

what case is ‘батьки’ in? (I think ‘батько’ is a 2nd declension neuter noun…)

Nom. plural. Батько indeed declines like a second declension neuter noun in singular (althoug it is actually a masculine word), but in plural it declines like a second declension masculine noun.

6. На початку року він (за)хворів, але зараз він знову почувається добре.

a. what case is ‘початку’ in? (‘початок’ looks like a 2nd declension masculine noun) b. why does ‘почуватися’ conjugate like ‘почувається’? (I thought it should be ‘почуваeться’ since ‘a’ is a hard vowel)

a. Prepositional case. The о in -ок is a "fleeting" о: when a case ending is attached, it is dropped. Second declension nouns which end in -к have a prepositional singular ending -у, not -і like most other words.
b. No, there are no verb endings like ае(ться). "Hard vowels" (i'm not sure if that term is even right, isn't it just the consonants that are hard or soft?) only influence the "hardness" of the consonant in front of them, not of letters following them. So that means the в in почувається is hard because it is followed by a "hard vowel".

7. Він зламав ногу, тому він не зміг піти (не міг ходити) до школи

a. meaning of ‘тому’ here? b. ‘змогти’ is an irregular verb because of ‘зміг’, correct?
c. why is ‘школи’ in the genitive case?

a. therefor
b. No, it's a regular first conjugation consonant stem verb, which means it has just the stem as the past tense masculine form. For the о --> і change, see question 4.

9. Я працював у той час, коли вона вчилася.

is ‘у той час’ optional?

I think it is.

10. Я їв… (снідав…), аж поки не дізнався, що на кухні є таргани. Тоді я відразу ж пішов.

a. ‘аж поки’ means ‘until’ ? b. why did you put ‘не’ in front of ‘дізнався’ ? (until I didn’t find out …?) c. what does ‘є’ mean? (my dictionary lists it as a form of ‘бу́ти’ but I can’t find a conjugation chart for ‘бу́ти’ anywhere…) d. what does the ‘ж’ after ‘відразу’ mean? e. how did you get ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ ?

a. and b. Аж поки не ... means "while (I) did not .... As long as I didn't find out = until I did find out.
c. Є is the whole present tense conjugation of бути: я є, ти є, він є etc. Easy to remember, isn't it? There once used to be different forms for each person, but they're not in use anymore.
d. Hmm... probably one of those untranslatable words. "Is used for strenghtening, underlining the meaning of the word after which it stands."

11. Я пролежав там 3 години, перш ніж заснути

a. what does ‘ніж’ mean here? b. why is ‘заснути’ in the infinitive here?

a. than. Перш ніж заснути = (litterally) first than to fall asleep.
b. In what other form should it be? Does anyone have an explanation?

12. Ти будеш їсти вже протягом 10 хвилин, коли я закінчу

a. what form is ‘будеш’ ? b. why does ‘-a’ drop on ‘хвилина’ ?

a. Second person future tense of бути: "you will".
b. See question 3.

I have to leave now, I'll leave the rest to someone else or maybe I'll try to answer to it later.

[voron]

2. Раніше я грав у відео-ігри.

a. what form of ‘гра’ is ‘ігри’ ? b. does ‘у’ mean ‘with’ here?

a. nominative plural

accusative (here) = nominative

[Oleksij]

‘аж поки’ means ‘until’ ? b. why did you put ‘не’ in front of ‘дізнався’ ? (until I didn’t find out …?) c. what does ‘є’ mean? (my dictionary lists it as a form of ‘бу́ти’ but I can’t find a conjugation chart for ‘бу́ти’ anywhere…) d. what does the ‘ж’ after ‘відразу’ mean? e. how did you get ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ ?

The negative particle is required in such clauses, e.g. я їв, поки не наївся, гуляв, поки не втомився etc.

Є is the (only) present form of the verb 'to be'. That's why conjugation charts won't elaborate much on it.

'Ж' is an emphasis partical - it's not required in most cases and is used to highlight things in the context.

a. what does ‘ніж’ mean here? b. why is ‘заснути’ in the infinitive here?

Ніж is a comparative particle (yes, I know, my knowledge of proper linguistic terms really sucks), equivalent to English 'than'. In this particular case, it also forms part of a phrasal construction "перш ніж", which literally means 'first to/before'.

Заснути doesn't necessarily have to be infinitive here - you can say either "(я) заснув" or "заснути".

a. what case is ‘знищене’ in? b. how did you get ‘вогнем’ from ‘вогонь’ ?

'Знищене' means 'destroyed (neu.)'. It's also in nominative here.

'Вогнем' is the instrumental of ‘вогонь’. A vowel reduction occurs there.

[dorenda]

accusative (here) = nominative

Oops, yes, of course.

13. Він хоче, щоб я зараз пішов додому.

a. how did you get ‘хоче’ from ‘хотіти’ ? (this looks like patalisation, if so, what is the rule here? ) b. ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ <- what’s the patalisation rule here? AND why is ‘пішов’ past tense here?

I'll leave this question to the experts.

14. Я б купив більше їжі, але для неї вже немає місця.

a. what does ‘б’ mean here? b. what case is ‘їжі’ ? (that doesn’t look like the accusative case…) c. what does ‘для неї’ mean? d. what does ‘місця’ mean? e. so ‘немає’ is the negative copula then?

a. It's part of the conditional mood, which is б(и) + past tense. So я б купив = I would buy.
b. It's the genitive singular of їжа, because більше is always followed by a genitive.
c. "for her", that is, for the food.
d. "place", genitive singular of місце.
e. I guess that's what it's called. It just means "is not".

15. Тепер ти хрещений.

no copula is needed in sentences like this?

No, most of the time "є" is omitted.

16. Тебе хрестили 5 хвилин.

here is ‘Тебе’ representing the accusative or genitive case ?

accusative

19. Мене будуть хрестити 6 разів до 2002 року.

here ‘раз’ means ‘time(s)’ and ‘-ів’ is the plural accusative marker ??

Раз means time, and -ів is the plural genitive marker (see question 3 if you wonder why genitive).

21. Ми б збудували будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.
Ми будували б будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.

why does the verb change from ‘збудували’ to ‘будували’ when you change the position of ‘б’ ?

I think it's rather the other way around, when you change from збудували to будували the б changes position, but I'm not sure why. Is it just because it sounds better, or is there a more clear reason?

7. Він зламав ногу, тому він не зміг піти (не міг ходити) до школи

a. meaning of ‘тому’ here? b. ‘змогти’ is an irregular verb because of ‘зміг’, correct?
c. why is ‘школи’ in the genitive case?

I forgot to answer c. Because до always takes the genitive case.

Now you probably have an answer to some of your question in the Polish forum as well.

[RCA]

Nice job Dorenda!

3. 3. Я з’їв тістечко 5 хвилин тому.

a. so i used the wrong verb here? з'їда́ти is imperfective and З'ЇСТИ is perfective of “to eat”, correct?

I’m not sure about the pairs, maybe it would be better to make up the following ones:

їсти (imperf.) – з’їсти (perf.)
з’їдати (imperf.) – поз’їдати (perf.)

З’їдати means an uncompleted or habitual or multiple action consisting of a series of completed actions:

Він щовечора з’їдає по яблуку.
He eats an apple every evening.

Сарана з’їдає все на своєму шляху.
Locusts eat everything they come across (multiple completed actions in an uncompleted period of time).

Сарана з’їдатиме все на своєму шляху. (the same in the Future tense)

Сарана поз’їдає все на своєму шляху. (multiple completed actions in a completed period)

It may also have other meanings, for example it is used to indicate a completed action if the logical accent falls on another aspect of the action, e.g., its durability:

Він з’їдає яблуко за 5 хвилин.
It takes him 5 minutes to eat an apple (completely).

4. Минулого року він хворів.

how did ‘рік’ change to ‘року’?

First an -у is added, because it's in the genitive case. This causes a vowel change that you can find in quite a large number of words. When the consonant following this і is not followed by an other letter, it is і, otherwise it changes to о or е(or є after a vowel): рік - року, ніж -ножа/ножниці, нога - ніг, він - вона/воно/вони, могти - міг, нести - ніс, Київ - Києва. (I'm not sure what the choice between о and е depends on, though.)

Actually, we say ножиці, the alternations і-о, і-е take place when a closed syllable opens.

5. Коли його батьки збудували будинок, він хворів.

what case is ‘батьки’ in? (I think ‘батько’ is a 2nd declension neuter noun…)

Nom. plural. Батько indeed declines like a second declension neuter noun in singular (althoug it is actually a masculine word), but in plural it declines like a second declension masculine noun.

I should also add that батьки means not only fathers, but also parents.

6. На початку року він (за)хворів, але зараз він знову почувається добре.

a. what case is ‘початку’ in? (‘початок’ looks like a 2nd declension masculine noun) b. why does ‘почуватися’ conjugate like ‘почувається’? (I thought it should be ‘почуваeться’ since ‘a’ is a hard vowel)

a. Prepositional case.

In Ukrainian we usually call it ‘locative’

The о in -ок is a "fleeting" о: when a case ending is attached, it is dropped. Second declension nouns which end in -к have a prepositional singular ending -у, not -і like most other words.

b. No, there are no verb endings like ае(ться). "Hard vowels" (i'm not sure if that term is even right, isn't it just the consonants that are hard or soft?) only influence the "hardness" of the consonant in front of them, not of letters following them. So that means the в in почувається is hard because it is followed by a "hard vowel".

The combination 'ае' can only be found in borrowed foreign words, in Ukrainian words we always say 'ає'.

10. Я їв… (снідав…), аж поки не дізнався, що на кухні є таргани. Тоді я відразу ж пішов.

b. why did you put ‘не’ in front of ‘дізнався’ ? (until I didn’t find out …?)

'Поки' without 'не' means 'while', 'as long as' (to introduce something that does/did/will do happen simultaneously with the other action); it may be used also with ‘not’ (and it means the same if the verb is imperfective): while I was UNaware of the cockroaches (while … not), I was eating. But a combination of 'поки не' with a perfective verb means termination of one action before another.

d. what does the ‘ж’ after ‘відразу’ mean?

d. Hmm... probably one of those untranslatable words. "Is used for strenghtening, underlining the meaning of the word after which it stands."

It is translatable, but I wish it wouldn’t Actually, there are about 20 ways to translate it in English depending on the meaning and context. If anyone is interested, I can post the chapter of my book ‘Translating from Ukrainian into English’ by V. Karaban that deals with the subject.

Here ж is used to emphasize that the second action (пішов) is the direct consequence of the first (дізнався) and may be translated as ‘very’ in ‘at the very same moment’.

e. how did you get ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ ?

I guess it’s an irregular verb.

11. Я пролежав там 3 години, перш ніж заснути

a. what does ‘ніж’ mean here? b. why is ‘заснути’ in the infinitive here?

a. than. Перш ніж заснути = (litterally) first than to fall asleep.
b. In what other form should it be? Does anyone have an explanation?

It is also possible to say ‘перш ніж я заснув’, but usually when the subject is the same in both clauses we omit it in the second one and use the infinitive form.

12. Ти будеш їсти вже протягом 10 хвилин, коли я закінчу

a. what form is ‘будеш’ ? b. why does ‘-a’ drop on ‘хвилина’ ?

a. Second person future tense of бути: "you will".

You can also say їстимеш (without any auxiliary).

13. Він хоче, щоб я зараз пішов додому.

a. how did you get ‘хоче’ from ‘хотіти’ ? (this looks like patalisation, if so, what is the rule here? ) b. ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ <- what’s the patalisation rule here? AND why is ‘пішов’ past tense here?

a. I guess all the 1nd-declension verbs with the stem ending in т have ч in their present forms (if the vowel preceding –ти gets lost): белькотати – белькочу, белькочеш, белькоче, белькочемо, белькочете, белькочуть; лоскотати – лоскоче…, etc.
b. It is subjunctive mood here (look at б in щоб), our subjunctive mood uses the past tense forms + б(и): he wants that I go home.

14. Я б купив більше їжі, але для неї вже немає місця.

d. what does ‘місця’ mean? e. so ‘немає’ is the negative copula then?

d. "place", genitive singular of місце.
e. I guess that's what it's called. It just means "is not".

d. Here it means ‘room’.
e. It means ‘there is not’.

21. Ми б збудували будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.
Ми будували б будинок (дім), якщо б мали гроші.

why does the verb change from ‘збудували’ to ‘будували’ when you change the position of ‘б’ ?
I think it's rather the other way around, when you change from збудували to будували the б changes position, but I'm not sure why. Is it just because it sounds better, or is there a more clear reason?

Б(и) doesn’t have a fixed position in a sentence, you just put it where it sounds betters, it isn’t conditioned grammatically (of course you cannot put it in some places, but still).

[dorenda]

the alternations і-о, і-е take place when a closed syllable opens.

But how come it's still могти, нести? Those syllables are not open, are they?

a. Prepositional case.

In Ukrainian we usually call it ‘locative’

That's what I learnt at first, but I remember reading somewhere that nowadays "prepositional" is preferred. I'm confused now. You don't use different (English) names for this case for Ukrainian and Russian, do you? Cause then it might just be that what I read was actually about Russian, and I just assumed it was the same for Ukrainian.

It is translatable, but I wish it wouldn’t Actually, there are about 20 ways to translate it in English depending on the meaning and context. If anyone is interested, I can post the chapter of my book ‘Translating from Ukrainian into English’ by V. Karaban that deals with the subject.

I'm interested.

d. "place", genitive singular of місце.

d. Here it means ‘room’.

I even learn English at the Ukrainian forum. I never realized that Dutch "plaats" in the meaning that місця has here cannot be translated with English "place".

[RCA]

the alternations і-о, і-е take place when a closed syllable opens.

But how come it's still могти, нести? Those syllables are not open, are they?

The situation with closed and open syllables is purely phonetical one, while the differences between the infinitive and conjugated forms are due to some non-phonetical reasons, sorry, I can’t tell more for now, I don’t remember them well. I’ll try to find out more in my books. Anyway, you can be absolutely sure to apply the rule about open and closed syllables, at least to nouns (of course, there are always exceptions that should be taken into account).

a. Prepositional case.

In Ukrainian we usually call it ‘locative’

That's what I learnt at first, but I remember reading somewhere that nowadays "prepositional" is preferred. I'm confused now. You don't use different (English) names for this case for Ukrainian and Russian, do you? Cause then it might just be that what I read was actually about Russian, and I just assumed it was the same for Ukrainian.

In Ukrainian it has always been ‘місцевий відмінок’, I don’t remember to have ever come across other names. In Russian it is called ‘prepositional case’, so you can call so the Ukrainian case either (because the cases are absolutely identical in the two languages), but why should one use a ‘borrowed’ name in place of that typical of the language? BTW, I think that the name ‘prepositional case’ is a superfluous invention, because since ancient times there has been ‘casus locativus’ (BTW, according to Latin we call our ‘знахідний відмінок’ accusative in English).

d. "place", genitive singular of місце.

d. Here it means ‘room’.

I even learn English at the Ukrainian forum. I never realized that Dutch "plaats" in the meaning that місця has here cannot be translated with English "place".

Hmm… actually, I was not sure whether it was possible to use ‘place’ in that situation or not, that's why I put 'room' there, just because I had no doubt on its account. Anyway, it fits the sentence well and renders better the meaning of ‘місце’ in that context, because when I say ‘немає місця’ I don’t mean a specific place. This is what my dictionary says:

place: a particular point or part of space or of a surface, esp that occupied by a person or thing
room: space or extent, esp unoccupied or unobstructed space for a particular purpose

[RCA]

Translation of ж(е) from Ukrainian into English

(from В. Карабан, Дж. Мейс «Теорія і практика перекладу з української мови на англійську мову», Вінниця: «Нова книга», 2003, 608 с.)

[dorenda]

In Ukrainian it has always been ‘місцевий відмінок’, I don’t remember to have ever come across other names. In Russian it is called ‘prepositional case’, so you can call so the Ukrainian case either (because the cases are absolutely identical in the two languages), but why should one use a ‘borrowed’ name in place of that typical of the language? BTW, I think that the name ‘prepositional case’ is a superfluous invention, because since ancient times there has been ‘casus locativus’ (BTW, according to Latin we call our ‘знахідний відмінок’ accusative in English).

But I was talking about what it is called in English, not in Ukrainian. So what it's called like in Ukrainian is not a good reason to use a certain term in English. You wouldn't call the accusative "fourth case" when speaking about Dutch either, simply because we often call it that way in Dutch, would you? Well, I don't really care about what we call it, as long as everybody understands which case we're talking about.

Translation of ж(е) from Ukrainian into English

Дякую!

[RCA]

In Ukrainian it has always been ‘місцевий відмінок’, I don’t remember to have ever come across other names. In Russian it is called ‘prepositional case’, so you can call so the Ukrainian case either (because the cases are absolutely identical in the two languages), but why should one use a ‘borrowed’ name in place of that typical of the language? BTW, I think that the name ‘prepositional case’ is a superfluous invention, because since ancient times there has been ‘casus locativus’ (BTW, according to Latin we call our ‘знахідний відмінок’ accusative in English).

But I was talking about what it is called in English, not in Ukrainian. So what it's called like in Ukrainian is not a good reason to use a certain term in English. You wouldn't call the accusative "fourth case" when speaking about Dutch either, simply because we often call it that way in Dutch, would you? Well, I don't really care about what we call it, as long as everybody understands which case we're talking about.

Ok But still... I wonder, your English dictionary doesn't contain 'locative case'? As to the Dutch 'fourth case', I would call it so, why not?

P.S. By the way, take a look at here and here. According to the latter reference, it seems that the Russian and Ukrainian cases are not absolutely identical... The Ukrainian case looks like something in between the locative and prepositional cases, but definitely more locative than prepositional.

[dorenda]

Ok But still... I wonder, your English dictionary doesn't contain 'locative case'?

Nope. And neither does it contain "prepositional".

As to the Dutch 'fourth case', I would call it so, why not?

I just never heard or read that somebody called it that way in an other language than Dutch or German.

P.S. By the way, take a look at here and here. According to the latter reference, it seems that the Russian and Ukrainian cases are not absolutely identical... The Ukrainian case looks like something in between the locative and prepositional cases, but definitely more locative than prepositional.

Okay, call it locative, whatever you want... At least I find that word easier to remember than "prepositional". I always have to think about it for a while before I can remember that word.

[kman1]

I think I understand almost everything.

2. a. what form of ‘гра’ is ‘ігри’ ? b. does ‘у’ mean ‘with’ here?
a. nominative plural EDIT: accusative plural.

the accusative plural ending is ‘-и’ but why did you add ‘i-‘ to ‘гри’ ?

3. what does ‘тому’ mean here?
d. ago

does ‘тому’ decline or is it just a set word that I need to memorize in that form only?

5. Nom. plural. Батько indeed declines like a second declension neuter noun in singular (althoug it is actually a masculine word), but in plural it declines like a second declension masculine noun.

So are you saying that ‘Батько’ is an irregular noun then? since it declines like a second declension neuter noun in the singular but like a second declension masculine noun in plural.

6. No, there are no verb endings like ае(ться).
The combination 'ае' can only be found in borrowed foreign words, in Ukrainian words we always say 'ає'.

Wait, I’m confused! In the text that I’m studying, it lists that when one is forming the present tense with the ‘e’ stem endings there are two vowel choices that the verb can take:

е stem endings
singular plural
First Person -у / -ю -емо / -ємо
Second Person -еш / -єш -ете / -єте
Third Person -е / -є -уть / -ють

if there is no ‘ae’ endings then this chart is wrong, correct?

7. a. meaning of ‘тому’ here?
a. therefore

so ‘тому’ has two meanings 1. therefore and 2. ‘ago’ , correct?

10. e. how did you get ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ ?
I guess it’s an irregular verb.

so ‘піти’ is an irregular verb because of ‘пішов’ here, correct? I just want to be sure…

13. b. It is subjunctive mood here (look at б in щоб), our subjunctive mood uses the past tense forms + б(и): he wants that I go home.

there is a subjunctive mood in Ukrainian? I did not this. I have done a Google search but I haven’t found any links explaining this. Would you please either post a link or explain the subjunctive mood rule(s) here?

14. c. what does ‘для неї’ mean?
c. "for her", that is, for the food.

I still don’t see ‘неї’ in the dictionary…

d. "place", genitive singular of місце.

and why is ‘місце’ in the genitive case, here?

для неї вже немає місця

this is how you say “i’m full” in Ukrainian?? seems long & weird  (there is no room for food…)

[RCA]

I think I understand almost everything.

2. a. what form of ‘гра’ is ‘ігри’ ? b. does ‘у’ mean ‘with’ here?
a. nominative plural EDIT: accusative plural.

the accusative plural ending is ‘-и’ but why did you add ‘i-‘ to ‘гри’ ?

Just so, in plural it has an ‘i’ in the beginning, a thing to remember.

3. what does ‘тому’ mean here?
d. ago

does ‘тому’ decline or is it just a set word that I need to memorize in that form only?

Here it is a conjunction (?), so it doesn’t decline. As a pronoun and demonstrative modifier it does.

5. Nom. plural. Батько indeed declines like a second declension neuter noun in singular (althoug it is actually a masculine word), but in plural it declines like a second declension masculine noun.

So are you saying that ‘Батько’ is an irregular noun then? since it declines like a second declension neuter noun in the singular but like a second declension masculine noun in plural.

It declines like all masculine nouns ending in ‘(к)o’ (which are rather numerous, just remember how most Ukrainian surnames look like).

6. No, there are no verb endings like ае(ться).
The combination 'ае' can only be found in borrowed foreign words, in Ukrainian words we always say 'ає'.

Wait, I’m confused! In the text that I’m studying, it lists that when one is forming the present tense with the ‘e’ stem endings there are two vowel choices that the verb can take:

е stem endings
singular plural
First Person -у / -ю -емо / -ємо
Second Person -еш / -єш -ете / -єте
Third Person -е / -є -уть / -ють

if there is no ‘ae’ endings then this chart is wrong, correct?

I guess, the ‘e’ in the stem doesn’t mean the very last sound of the stem, but the vowel in the last syllable. In Ukrainian there are 2 verb conjugations, which are characterized by the vowels they take in the endings when conjugated. The first conjugation verbs take ‘е’, while the second ‘и’. The endings that you report are correct, the first column endings are used after hard consonants, the second column endings after soft consonants and vowels.

7. a. meaning of ‘тому’ here?
a. therefore

so ‘тому’ has two meanings 1. therefore and 2. ‘ago’ , correct?

Yes, but in fact it has a few more meanings: singular dative and locative cases of masculine and neuter forms of the demonstrative modifier ‘that’ and pronoun 'that'.

10. e. how did you get ‘пішов’ from ‘піти’ ?
I guess it’s an irregular verb.

so ‘піти’ is an irregular verb because of ‘пішов’ here, correct? I just want to be sure…

As a native speaker, I don’t know which verbs are considered irregular, we don’t use such terms. Maybe Dorenda knows the thing better than me.

13. b. It is subjunctive mood here (look at б in щоб), our subjunctive mood uses the past tense forms + б(и): he wants that I go home.

there is a subjunctive mood in Ukrainian? I did not this. I have done a Google search but I haven’t found any links explaining this. Would you please either post a link or explain the subjunctive mood rule(s) here?

In Ukrainian it is called conditional mood, but in fact it is used as subjunctive mood too. For example:

I don’t remember that he said this:
Не пам’ятаю, що він це сказав. (He did say and I know that, but I don’t remember to have heard him say).
Не пам’ятаю, щоб він це сказав. (I don’t know whether he said this or not, but I think he didn’t because I don’t remember to have heard him say).

14. c. what does ‘для неї’ mean?
c. "for her", that is, for the food.

I still don’t see ‘неї’ in the dictionary…

This is the singular genitive form of 'вона' used with prepositions, without prepositions one should use 'її': немає її, не бачу її, … - без неї, для неї, …

d. "place", genitive singular of місце.

and why is ‘місце’ in the genitive case, here?

After немає one should always use genitive case (orginally, the genitive case meant here something like partitiveness, that is ‘there is not a single bit of something’).

для неї вже немає місця

this is how you say “i’m full” in Ukrainian?? seems long & weird  (there is no room for food…)

You can easily say it in a shorter way: «я купив би ще, але немає куди» (two words instead of the English three), but this is a phrase typical of the spoken language, if you want to be stylistically perfect you should avoid it. BTW, ‘I’m full’ in Ukrainian means letterally ‘I’m fat’.

[dorenda]

so ‘піти’ is an irregular verb because of ‘пішов’ here, correct? I just want to be sure…

As a native speaker, I don’t know which verbs are considered irregular, we don’t use such terms. Maybe Dorenda knows the thing better than me.

Unfortunately I had a textbook that didn't explain why all kinds of small sound changes, changes in stems, and other seemingly irregular things happen (or maybe fortunately, because it probably helped me to develop the feeling for how words conjugate/decline, instead of just applying lots of rules). Anyway, it says that there are only 3 "irregular" verbs in Ukrainian: дати, їсти, and -вісти, so іти should be regular then. I never really thought about it either. Maybe it is just the result of some sounds merging or influencing each other at some point in the past?

для неї вже немає місця

this is how you say “i’m full” in Ukrainian?? seems long & weird  (there is no room for food…)

You can easily say it in a shorter way: «я купив би ще, але немає куди» (two words instead of the English three), but this is a phrase typical of the spoken language, if you want to be stylistically perfect you should avoid it. BTW, ‘I’m full’ in Ukrainian means letterally ‘I’m fat’.

Or you could say я наївся, "I've eaten enough". Right?

[kman1]

It declines like all masculine nouns ending in ‘(к)o’

which is like a second declension neuter noun in the singular and like a second declension masculine noun.in the plural, correct?

The endings that you report are correct, the first column endings are used after hard consonants, the second column endings after soft consonants and vowels

but ‘a’ makes the consonant before it hard therefore you should put ‘e’ after ‘a’ since ‘e’ also makes consonants hard instead of ‘є’ which makes consonants soft, correct?

[RCA]

Or you could say я наївся, "I've eaten enough". Right?

If ‘I’m full’ is used to indicate something like ‘my stomach is full’, then your phrase is no doubt the best, if something else is understood (my bag, my car, my refrigerator, etc. is full), one should use my phrase.

It declines like all masculine nouns ending in ‘(к)o’

which is like a second declension neuter noun in the singular and like a second declension masculine noun.in the plural, correct?

No, it declines like a 2nd declension masculine noun in both singular and plural. Here are some examples (Nom – Gen – Dat – Acc – Ins – Loc - Voc):

батько (m) – Шевченко (m) – чоловік (m)– ліжко (n)
батька – Шевченка – чоловіка – ліжка
батьку (бітькові) – Шевченку (Шевченкові) – чоловіку (чоловікові) – ліжку (ліжкові*)
батька – Шевченка – чоловіка – ліжко
батьком – Шевченком – чоловіком – ліжком
на батьку (батькові) – на Шевченку (Шевченкові) – на чоловіку (чоловікові) – на ліжку (ліжкові*)
батьку – Шевченку – чоловіче – ліжко

батьки – Шевченки – чоловіки – ліжка
батьків – Шевченків – чоловіків – ліжок
батькам – Шевченкам – чоловікам – ліжкам
батьків – Шевченків – чоловіків – ліжка
батьками – Шевченками – чоловіками – ліжками
на батьках – на Шевченках – на чоловіках – на ліжках
батьки – Шевченки – чоловіки - ліжка

* these forms are used very rarely

The endings that you report are correct, the first column endings are used after hard consonants, the second column endings after soft consonants and vowels

but ‘a’ makes the consonant before it hard...

Yes.

...therefore you should put ‘e’ after ‘a’ since...

No, after 'a' you should put 'є', because 'a' is a vowel.

...‘e’ also makes consonants hard instead of ‘є’ which makes consonants soft, correct?

Yes.

[Cisza]

бітьку
бітьками

???