Vietnamese Discussion - Sự thảo luận tiếng Việt

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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-28, 11:57

Psi-Lord wrote:
bluechiron1 wrote:how can I get rid of the boxes and read actual characters?

Which browser and operating system are you using?

In IE, it works fine with Unicode. (UTF-8 )
In Firefox, it works as well with Vietnamese. But however, the tone marks may stray to the letter next to the vowel that it should be marked. I should say that consonsants have no accent or tone marks at all.
Last edited by JackFrost on 2005-04-28, 12:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-28, 12:00

Javier wrote:Jack, thanks a lot for giving this course, I am also another customer :) since some time ago I was looking for some vietnamese resources.

No problem. :)

but in the webpage PsiLord gave http://cjvlang.com/Writing/writsys/writviet.html

it says the following :

The letter đ (not strictly speaking a diacritic) represents a peculiar flapped sound, similar to the 'r' sound of Japanese.


What should be the right way to pronounce it?

Well, the sounds I am giving is Southern Vietnamese, the kind that Matt speaks. He pointed out that how it's pronounced. I'll have to ask him about the Northern verson, he might know.

2. In the clip I still cannot figure out what the "ch" sounds like ..

Bở nay tôi đang viêt hệ thống chữ cái và giọng.


specifically with this sillable : "chữ ", I heard it like "j" in french "journal", am I still too far ? :oops:

I have to ask him that as well. As far I know, it's like English ch. :shock:
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-29, 1:33

Ok...got the answers.

CH is like English indeed.
D is definitely y, never z.
đ is just a simple d as in English.

I should note that there are three main dialects in Vietnam: the Northern, the Central, and the Southern. The sounds and course will be based on the Saigon dialect of Southern Vietnamese. ;)
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Postby Rob P » 2005-04-29, 20:40

Which dialect is used most in media?

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Postby Luís » 2005-04-29, 21:46

Rob P wrote:Which dialect is used most in media?


The Hanoi dialect is accepted as the standard. So, I suppose it'll be the one used in the media.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-04-29, 22:15

Luís wrote:The Hanoi dialect is accepted as the standard. So, I suppose it'll be the one used in the media.

Indeed—most websites I checked emphasized they based their descriptions on the Hanoi dialect.
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Postby Raza » 2005-04-29, 22:29

I'm pretty sure gramatically all the dialects are almost identical, but how different is the Hanoi dialect from the Saigon dialect in terms of their phonology? I presume there'd surely be systematic sound differences for various consonants and vowels, but are they great enough to be mutually unintelligible?

Also, I know Jack's boyfriend is from the south, but since the dialect of the north is the standard, I think it'd better if the course were done in that dialect. Otherwise, it'd be like foreign English learners trying to learn English using the very broad Aussie dialect or Jamaican English. I'm not saying those dialects are in any way inferior, but I think the standard dialect would be alot more beneficial and useful.

I hope Jack won't take offence at my saying that. :wink:

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Postby Luís » 2005-04-29, 22:41

Raza wrote:I'm pretty sure gramatically all the dialects are almost identical, but how different is the Hanoi dialect from the Saigon dialect in terms of their phonology?


I'll quote from the website Psi-Lord posted earlier:

3. In spite of its shortcomings, the system that the missionaries created was remarkably suited to the Vietnamese language. Of particular usefulness is its ability to bridge dialects. The writing system tries to show not only distinctions in sound that are found in the standard Hanoi dialect but also those in other dialects. Two different letters may be pronounced identically in Hanoi but differently in other dialects. For instance:

Image


And it seems there are some differences when it comes to tones too.

P.S. And just out of curiosity, does Burmese have any tones?
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-04-29, 22:50

JackFrost wrote:D is definitely y, never z.

[...]

The sounds and course will be based on the Saigon dialect of Southern Vietnamese. ;)

I did find some info regarding the difference here—it seems that, indeed, Vietnamese d is more like English y in the South, and more like English z in the North.
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-30, 1:46

Oh of course D is Z in Hanoi areas. My fault I wasn't too clear on which dialect I am using. ;)

Well guys, I know Hanoi dialect is the standard, and that's the writing I am using right now. The dialects in Vietnam are very mutually intelligible, just like the dialects within American English. People from the North can very easily understand the Southerns, just like people from the Northern USA can understand those in the South. ;) The differences are not that vast as British and American English.

But I have no choice, Matt speaks the Southern dialect, and that's the one I can use and teach to you all. I don't know anyone from the North, and neither does he. The writing in this course will be the Hanoi standard...we are capable of showing you that. ;)

So...
Sounds of this course: Saigon
Writing of this course: Hanoi...the writing of Standard Vietnamese
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-04-30, 1:52

JackFrost wrote:But I have no choice, Matt speaks the Southern dialect, and that's the one I can use and teach to you all.

I personally don't really see anything 'wrong' with that, just for the record—my own emphasizing the Hanoi dialect in my previous posts were just because that's what the material I quoted was about. I personally wouldn't mind learning a dialect or a non-standard version of a language (even if just from an offical point of view) I'm interested in if no other sources are available. :)
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-30, 1:54

Yes, I don't mind you helping around. Plus, you probably learnt more about the Hanoi dialect more than me and Matt by now with your research. :P
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Postby 勺园之鬼 » 2005-05-01, 14:24

I ate with a Vietnamese friend yesterday (he's from Saigon) and he confirmed to me that vietnamese dialects are not too difficult to understand, and that the written language is a very good bridge for all the dialects. I heard him speak a few times with another vietnamese friend from Hanoi, and I somewhat noticed that they sounded very different. ;) The friend from Hanoi told me that Saigon dialect is not hard to understand, until Saigonese start using dialectal words and expressions. :lol:
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-02, 0:03

The reason they sound different because the pronounications are somewhat different. ;)

En passant: En anglais, les noms et adjectifs de nationalité sont toujours capitalisés.

Ainsi: Vietnamese friend.

Ne t'inquiète pas, les francophones font toujours cette faute. ;)
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Postby 勺园之鬼 » 2005-05-02, 0:27

JackFrost wrote:The reason they sound different because the pronounications are somewhat different. ;)

En passant: En anglais, les noms et adjectifs de nationalité sont toujours capitalisés.

Ainsi: Vietnamese friend.

Ne t'inquiète pas, les francophones font toujours cette faute. ;)


Je sais. Nationality names are ALWAYS supposed to be capitalised in french, but I NEVER capitalise them (adjectives don't have to be capitalised). I just can't do it. It has to do with my vision on nationality. And I already force myself to capitalise first words in sentences, person & location names, and even "I". In my previous post I capitalised the first "vietnamese" and that had so much effect on me that I just couldn't capitalise others. That was already too much of an effort and I believe I suffer a lot from doing this. Those who know me well know how I suffer from capitalising words.... :roll: That's a bit off the track, we should go back to vietnamese...
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-02, 0:32

It takes a little time to get used to. ;)

And...

Barret VII wrote:I can't see the special Vietnamese characters :?

If you use IE, Unicode would read Vietnamese characters. If you're using Firefox, again Unicode will do. However, Firefox has a few other encodings for Vietnamese.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-05-02, 8:14

JackFrost wrote:
Barret VII wrote:I can't see the special Vietnamese characters :?

If you use IE, Unicode would read Vietnamese characters.

Not really, JF—I myself use IE (on WinXP Pro with full language support activated), and the only way I've found to get Unicode to display fine here in the forum (I use the alexis style, by the way) was to force IE to ignore any font styles defined by the forum itself.

This is what I myself get using IE's standard configuration:

Image
That is weird. I use the red style for the forum for my IE (at school) and Firefox (at home), and they just worked fine. :? I can't say anything, I'm no expert in this field.
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-02, 13:22

Psi-Lord wrote:
JackFrost wrote:
Barret VII wrote:I can't see the special Vietnamese characters :?

If you use IE, Unicode would read Vietnamese characters.

Not really, JF—I myself use IE (on WinXP Pro with full language support activated), and the only way I've found to get Unicode to display fine here in the forum (I use the alexis style, by the way) was to force IE to ignore any font styles defined by the forum itself.

This is what I myself get using IE's standard configuration:

Image
That is weird. I use the red style for the forum for my IE (at school) and Firefox (at home), and they just worked fine. :? I can't say anything, I'm no expert in this field.

That is weird. I use the red style for the forum for my IE (at school) and Firefox (at home), and they just worked fine. :? I can't say anything, I'm no expert in this field.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-05-02, 17:34

JackFrost wrote:That is weird. I use the red style for the forum for my IE (at school) and Firefox (at home), and they just worked fine. :? I can't say anything, I'm no expert in this field.

Cool—I tried subRed and redIce, and it got displayed fine in both styles. I'm no expert either, but my guess is that IE is kind of 'stupid' when handling Unicode sometimes—alexis probably has a specific font style designed for it, and IE just can't handle replacing that font with a different one when it comes to characters the designed font itself doesn't support (which is what FireFox does, even under alexis).
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-22, 2:46

Hang ten guys, I'm working on the next lesson. ;)
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