Vietnamese Discussion - Sự thảo luận tiếng Việt

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Vietnamese Discussion - Sự thảo luận tiê

Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-23, 21:43

All questions regarding the lessons that I am giving and the language itself can be placed here. :D
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Postby Stan » 2005-04-23, 23:25

Hi JackFrost! :lol:

I do have some questions:

1) Why are there so many diacritics? :shock:
2) It would be cool if your boyfriend could record something for the Sonidos del Mundo. I would love to hear what Vietnamese sounds like. :wink:

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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-23, 23:35

Hello. :P

1) Why are there so many diacritics?

The ^, ơ, đ, and ư are Vietnamese sounds different from non-^, o, d, and u.

The ̀ , ̀̉ , ̃ , ́ , and ̣ . are tone markings. Vietnames is a tonal language, like Chinese dialects, but hey, it beats learning those crazy Chinese characters! ;)

I'll explain those further in lesson one.


2) It would be cool if your boyfriend could record something for the Sonidos del Mundo. I would love to hear what Vietnamese sounds like.

Hmmm, he told me he's not in the mood to translate all of those texts. :oops: But no worries, you'll get to hear how Vietnamese sounds like. :D Just be patient. ;)
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Postby Raza » 2005-04-24, 8:34

Stancel, you don't have to wait for Jack's boyfriend to hear Vietnamese, you can easily go to an online radio news broadcast on BBC or Voice of America and hear Vietnamese for as long as you like. Also, there're quite a few really good Vietnamese-language movies out there co-produced with French film makers such as ''Three Seasons'' which I think won a few awards at the Cannes Film Festival a few years back. So you could try something along those lines.

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Postby Rob P » 2005-04-24, 18:00

The ̀ , ̀̉ , ̃ , ́ , and ̣ . are tone markings. Vietnamese is a tonal language, like Chinese dialects, but hey, it beats learning those crazy Chinese characters!


It looks very daunting, but I never thought of it like that!

Robert

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Postby Rob P » 2005-04-27, 1:09

Well, I guess you'll probably answer a lot of my questions when the lessons come out, but here's a few anyway.

Has Vietnamese been influenced a lot by other languages? Chinese or French maybe, or even English?

How complex is Vietnamese grammar? - I'm assuming it's somewhat like Chinese, but I could be totally wrong.

I probably should save the rest, as you'll probably answer them all soon. I'm very excited about an introduction to Vietnamese :)

Robert

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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-27, 1:17

1) Yes, mostly by French and Cantonese. Vietnamese has a lot of Cantonese characters, and plus a lot of French words. Though you don't see it much, since they're split up. Try this one...ca rem --- crème. :P

2) Well, grammar is simple, no plurals, no endings, no genders, and so on.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-04-27, 2:17

In case someone's curious and want to read something about the Vietnamese writing system, I believe http://cjvlang.com/Writing/writsys/writviet.html is a nice place to start. They give a quick, overall view there, but it's interesting, and they use images for the Vietnamese words, so that people don't have to worry about proper encoding, either.

There's also a nice article on the Vietnamese days of the week at http://cjvlang.com/Dow/dowviet.html, and, if you're a Harry Potter fan, you can't miss http://cjvlang.com/Hpotter/index.html, which talks about the translations of everything from the Potter universe in Japanese, Chinese and Vietnamese, with lots of explanations regarding the grammar and the vocabulary behind them. For instance, this is what you can find in the page dealing with the title of 'Harry Potter and the Prisioner of Azkaban':


Harry Potter và tên tù nhân ngục Azkaban

Harry Potter (pronounced Ha-ri Pốt-tơ).
và = 'and'.
tên = 'name', a part of speech known as a 'counter' or 'classifier', used for people.
tù nhân (囚人) = 'prisioner'.
ngục (獄) = 'prison, gaol'.
Azkaban = 'Azkaban'.

Literally: Harry Potter and the Prisioner of Azkaban Prison.


For people who have some experience with Japanese and Chinese, it's even interesting when they present the characters from which the modern words are derived from. :) But I digress (sorry for getting off topic, JackFrost)...
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-27, 2:50

NO NO NO NO OSTI DE TABARNAK!!!!!!

I made a long list about letters and tones, and I accidentally closed the browser, therefore erasing the whole goddamned thing! I spent over an hour working on it, and now all gone! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Oh I wanna throw the computer out of the window! :evil:

So sorry guys. You'll have to wait till tomorrow when I have time. :cry:
Last edited by JackFrost on 2005-04-27, 2:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-27, 2:51

Psi-Lord wrote:But I digress (sorry for getting off topic, JackFrost)...

I don't mind. Everyone is welcome. :P
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Postby Rob P » 2005-04-27, 22:19

JackFrost wrote:NO NO NO NO OSTI DE TABARNAK!!!!!!

I made a long list about letters and tones, and I accidentally closed the browser, therefore erasing the whole goddamned thing! I spent over an hour working on it, and now all gone! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Oh I wanna throw the computer out of the window! :evil:

So sorry guys. You'll have to wait till tomorrow when I have time. :cry:


That's ok, it happens to the best of us :lol:

I am looking forward to it immensely :D

Psi-Lord wrote:But I digress (sorry for getting off topic)

It's always nice to find out about great links :D

Robert

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Postby Raza » 2005-04-27, 22:29

JackFrost wrote:2) Well, grammar is simple, no plurals, no endings, no genders, and so on.


Well....just because a language has an isolating/analytic grammar, you can't really say that it has a 'simple' grammar. I mean the lack of noun declensions and verb conjugations seen in Indo-European languages would surely be compensated for by the complexity of its syntax.
Last edited by Raza on 2005-04-27, 22:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-04-27, 22:29

Always save what you write, Jack! It is so easy to hit the false button. :(

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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-27, 23:56

I'm going to do it in Mircosoft Work instead of here from now on. ;)
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-28, 2:59

Raza wrote:
JackFrost wrote:2) Well, grammar is simple, no plurals, no endings, no genders, and so on.
Well....just because a language has an isolating/analytic grammar, you can't really say that it has a 'simple' grammar. I mean the lack of noun declensions and verb conjugations seen in Indo-European languages would surely be compensated for by the complexity of its syntax.

Even the syntax is generally simple, it can be compared to English elementary level.
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-04-28, 3:01

The tones, I should admit...I haven't mastered the high-broken, low-broken, and low-rising tones. :oops:
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Postby bluechiron » 2005-04-28, 4:36

The first lesson displays a bunch of the characters as little boxes. I know this has something to do with character types because this happened to all the Korean players in an old video game I used to play...so now, how can I get rid of the boxes and read actual characters?
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-04-28, 6:02

bluechiron1 wrote:how can I get rid of the boxes and read actual characters?

Which browser and operating system are you using?
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Postby Javier » 2005-04-28, 8:21

Jack, thanks a lot for giving this course, I am also another customer :) since some time ago I was looking for some vietnamese resources.

I have 2 doubts :

1. in the first lesson you wrote, about the d and đ sounds :

d - as in yes
đ - as English d


but in the webpage PsiLord gave http://cjvlang.com/Writing/writsys/writviet.html

it says the following :

The letter đ (not strictly speaking a diacritic) represents a peculiar flapped sound, similar to the 'r' sound of Japanese.


What should be the right way to pronounce it?

2. In the clip I still cannot figure out what the "ch" sounds like ..

Bở nay tôi đang viêt hệ thống chữ cái và giọng.


specifically with this sillable : "chữ ", I heard it like "j" in french "journal", am I still too far ? :oops:

thanks
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Corrections appreciated -(Even in Spanish) ;)

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-04-28, 9:14

Javier wrote:1. in the first lesson you wrote, about the d and đ sounds :

d - as in yes
đ - as English d

but in the webpage PsiLord gave http://cjvlang.com/Writing/writsys/writviet.html

it says the following :

The letter đ (not strictly speaking a diacritic) represents a peculiar flapped sound, similar to the 'r' sound of Japanese.


What should be the right way to pronounce it?

I had a look around and it was hard to find good written material on pronunciation indeed.

The Wikipedia, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language#Consonants, defines đ as a voiced implosive alveolar stop, and d (= r) as a voiced alveolar fricative (Hanoi dialect).

The Seasite guide, at http://www.seasite.niu.edu/vietnamese/Guide_to_Pronunciation/consonant_system.htm, compares Vietnamese đ to English d as in done, and Vietnamese d to English z in zone or azure. When I listen to the audio files, I agree with done and zone, but I can't really hear the azure sound myself. Maybe someone with a better ear can confirm or deny that. Oh, you need a special font for this website, by the way, downloadable here.

Omniglot, at http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vietnamese.htm, give them as [d] and [z], too.

The Monash website, at http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/viet/index.html, doesn't give descriptions of the sounds (at least I haven't found any), but it also has audio files. Listening to them, d and đ do sound like the sounds JackFrost pointed.

Vietnamese ch seems to be tricky. Using the audio files of the same websites above, sometimes it sounds like English ch (with which that first website I indicated agree), sometimes it sounds softer, and sometimes I could barely hear it. :shock: The Wikipedia defines it as a voiceless unaspirated palatal stop.
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