ThumbsUp wrote:It only sounds alike to you because the wavy nga is one flow and not 2 because there's no creakiness.
No creakiness = not similar to ngã.
ThumbsUp wrote:But what it shares with the other nga approaches is that it starts off at a pitch but ends up higher in the end.
Yeah but what do they do in the middle
Northern ngã tone starts off at 3, then rises all the way up to 5; there's no perceptible dipping, only a glottal break. A rising-only tone
. You can see that in the graph. If I have to speculate, I'd say when you remove that break to make a "smooth flow", as you claim, ngã would become something like a shaky sắc tone, another rising-only tone, and nothing like the Southern hỏi tone.
The Southern tone starts of at 2, dips to 1, then shoots up to 4, or falling-rising
. That's closer to the Northern hỏi, which starts at 3, dips to 1, then ascends back to 3: falling-rising
ThumbsUp wrote:Hoi is different in that its one pitch bending down and coming back to same level of pitch.
Southern hỏi doesn't come back to same
level of pitch but end up in a higher pitch, granted, but it does fall noticeably, then goes upwards, creating a V-shaped contour, like Northern hỏi. Ngã does NOT fall. They're very
dissimilar in this sense.
You cannot say two tones are similar because they both "end up higher in the end". That's too broad of a criterion! You have to look at their contour as well. Do they simply rise, or do they simply fall, or do they rise then fall, or do they fall then rise?
Look, if we're going to use the Northern point of reference, which we are doing just now, and want to get technical about it, then the Southern merged tone is a whole different tone then hỏi and ngã in the North. And I think you can agree with me on this. On the other hand, I still don't get the logic you employ to analyse tones, so I guess you're entitled to your own perception and can call the merged tone "ngã" if you like. But for me, due to the fact that it's closer to Northern hỏi in pitch (low-to-mid), contour (falling-rising) as well as phonation (plain, not creaky), I'll keep calling my Southern tone "hỏi".
ThumbsUp wrote:Don't tell me you're a southerner and you never creak or crackle your nga. That's just too weird
I have no creaky tone in my speech. Creakiness is a fundamentally Northern thingy. (Maybe for North-Central folks as well, but I don't pay that much attention to their accents so I can't say.) A quick look at the comparison table in Wikipedia should confirm that.
Just be careful when you sample the Saigonese accent. A lot of people grow up in Saigon but have a recent Northern background. You never know. Saigon is the land of immigrants, so living in city you can hear just about every dialect of Vietnamese coexisting side by side.