Talib wrote:Nine. That's six word tones and three entering tones.*
*I hear Vietnamese has two entering tones, is this true?
Anyway I'm also a stickler for pronunciation, except with Russian. I just don't give a flying fortress about that one.
abcdefg wrote:all consonants here are pronounced softer & lighter than in other areas; trying to add more strength to each is a pointless tiring work.
ThumbsUp wrote:I believe Draven is a southerner like me. Which is possibly why he's confusing hỏi with ngã. Southerners also do say hiệu trưỡng or nowadays hiệu chưỡng.
Talib wrote:Sounds like how I (try to) speak, except I can only make a half-assed imitation of the tones.ThumbsUp wrote:if you learn Vietnamese and pronounce every sound correctly, like distinguishing s and x, tr and ch, and r it'd still be a northern accent, possibly a much less lazier northern accent because you're not merging similar sounds. So there's even a more correct northern accent than most northern accents.
ILuvEire wrote:These are all people living in Vietnam, which apparently the Northern dialect is much more prevalent.
ILuvEire wrote:Living in the Americas, the Northern dialect is absolutely useless. You'll be lucky if you find a Northern Vietnamese speaker
ILuvEire wrote:I went for some time speaking with a Southern accent but using Northern vocab and just confused the hell out of everyone.
Draven wrote:
It's "thẳng thắn" and "hiệu trưởng" btw. Some southies turn rightful hỏi into ngã, but that's hypercorrection. I even heard, with my own ears, one man say D as /v/ when chatting with people of the northern dialect!
Draven wrote:That sounds like northies who have migrated to the South. Doing so also "straighten up" their vowels as well, like erasing the yod-mutation that northern people nowadays seem to have (for instance, /ɛ/ --> /jɛ/, resulting in "myèo" and "iem" instead of "mèo" and "em") or helping them pronounce "correctly" the cursed triphthong ƯƠU /ɯəu̯/ that no-one seems to get "right" but Central people*.
* North: ươu = /iu̯/; South: ươu = /u/ or /ɯu̯/
ThumbsUp wrote: D as V? I think you mean southerners pronounce v as y which some people southerners think is d when written but when they speak to northerners they pronounce it correctly as v. Southerners definitely never pronounce d as v, in fact no accents in Vietnam pronounce d as v.
ThumbsUp wrote:Southerners merge ? into ~ not the other way around. It's too hard for southerners to pronounce ? unless they got some training.
ThumbsUp wrote:Quick ex:
Southern http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLxgyDMDpFw
Notice how both say tất cả as tấc cã (ngã tone). @0:01 and @0:25
ILuvEire wrote:My biggest recommendation for you would be to pick a dialect and stick with it. I went for some time speaking with a Southern accent but using Northern vocab and just confused the hell out of everyone. If you speak straight up Hanoi dialect, most people will be able to guess what you're going for, but if you pronounce it funkily, they'll be absolutely lost in every way.
Draven wrote:ThumbsUp wrote: D as V? I think you mean southerners pronounce v as y which some people southerners think is d when written but when they speak to northerners they pronounce it correctly as v. Southerners definitely never pronounce d as v, in fact no accents in Vietnam pronounce d as v.
I believe that particular guy turned his D into /v/ because he was speaking with Northerners and just got confused. Like I said, it's hypercorrection. From a clueless Southern perspective: "If our V is /j/ and the Northern V is /v/, then that means if our D is /j/, their D must be /v/ too, right?"ThumbsUp wrote:Southerners merge ? into ~ not the other way around. It's too hard for southerners to pronounce ? unless they got some training.
You're getting it wrong I'm afraid. It's the other way around. Ngã is merged into hỏi.ThumbsUp wrote:Quick ex:
Southern http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLxgyDMDpFw
Notice how both say tất cả as tấc cã (ngã tone). @0:01 and @0:25
They're just being like that because they're on tv. That's not how Northerners do the ngã tone, and the vast majority of Southerners in real life certainly don't speak like that. We merge ngã into hỏi. You're hearing the dainty "oh we're on tv!" speech.
Draven wrote:I just noticed recently that Northerners have the strongest and sharpest /s/ of all.
Draven wrote:That sounds like northies who have migrated to the South. Doing so also "straighten up" their vowels as well, like erasing the yod-mutation that northern people nowadays seem to have (for instance, /ɛ/ --> /jɛ/, resulting in "myèo" and "iem" instead of "mèo" and "em") or helping them pronounce "correctly" the cursed triphthong ƯƠU /ɯəu̯/ that no-one seems to get "right" but Central people*.
* North: ươu = /iu̯/; South: ươu = /u/ or /ɯu̯ /
Draven wrote:the vast majority of Southerners in real life certainly don't speak like that. We merge ngã into hỏi.
abcdefg wrote:Uhm.. I thought merging ngã into hỏi is typically Central, and it's the other way round in the South?
ThumbsUp wrote:The ngã is what you're hearing all the time.
abcdefg wrote:Northern ươu = /iə̯u̯/ I think, like iêu.
Ah there, the Southern yêu is quite different from the orthography right.
Including Canada? There are quite a lot of Vietnamese people in Toronto (and their restaurants!) but I'm not sure how recently they've come over here.ILuvEire wrote:Living in the Americas, the Northern dialect is absolutely useless. You'll be lucky if you find a Northern Vietnamese speaker (although if you go to an embassy or something, they'll probably speak the Northern variety). Everyone over on this side of the pond speaks a Southern or sometimes South-Central dialect.
Talib wrote:If most of them speak a Southern dialect, then I am definitely not learning Vietnamese, because I only like the Northern dialect. (Well, and the Central. And I wasn't really planning on learning it anyway, but it was a possibility, if I mastered Korean, Italian, Punjabi and Turkish first.)
Including Canada, yes. And I suppose we're all entitled to our preferences, but the Northern dialect sounds just like someone catching a bee in their mouth. How unpleasant.Talib wrote:Including Canada? There are quite a lot of Vietnamese people in Toronto (and their restaurants!) but I'm not sure how recently they've come over here.ILuvEire wrote:Living in the Americas, the Northern dialect is absolutely useless. You'll be lucky if you find a Northern Vietnamese speaker (although if you go to an embassy or something, they'll probably speak the Northern variety). Everyone over on this side of the pond speaks a Southern or sometimes South-Central dialect.
If most of them speak a Southern dialect, then I am definitely not learning Vietnamese, because I only like the Northern dialect. (Well, and the Central. And I wasn't really planning on learning it anyway, but it was a possibility, if I mastered Korean, Italian, Punjabi and Turkish first.)
Talib wrote:Including Canada? There are quite a lot of Vietnamese people in Toronto (and their restaurants!) but I'm not sure how recently they've come over here.ILuvEire wrote:Living in the Americas, the Northern dialect is absolutely useless. You'll be lucky if you find a Northern Vietnamese speaker (although if you go to an embassy or something, they'll probably speak the Northern variety). Everyone over on this side of the pond speaks a Southern or sometimes South-Central dialect.
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:Uhm.. I thought merging ngã into hỏi is typically Central, and it's the other way round in the South?ThumbsUp wrote: And I can guarantee you the Southern hỏi tone is not creaky in real life. Not by one bit. If a Saigonese turns hỏi into ngã, they would be seen as annoying and pretentious. On the other hand if you distinguish hỏi and ngã, people would assume that you're a Northern immigrant trying to fit in.
Talib wrote:ILuvEire wrote:If most of them speak a Southern dialect, then I am definitely not learning Vietnamese, because I only like the Northern dialect. (Well, and the Central. And I wasn't really planning on learning it anyway, but it was a possibility, if I mastered Korean, Italian, Punjabi and Turkish first.)
ThumbsUp wrote:Southerners however can't say hỏi at all. Ngã doesn't have to be creaky, it can be wavy but one thing you'll notice is it goes up down and up. It can even go down crackle and down (heard in central).
ThumbsUp wrote:The wavy ngã with no creakiness gives an illusion of hỏi but hỏi is a different type of tone generally softer. [...] I can guarantee that southerners can't sound out hỏi. [...] I think the diacritics work well to explain them too. ~ shows it going like a wave, ? shows it in a smoothe motion downwards and then steady.
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