Imbecilica wrote:apparently there is a word nhửng with dấu hỏi which means something like the state of the water between high and low tide. Or is it a rural word used mainly in the Mekong area?
abcdefg wrote:Yeah I didn't know the word. Help please?
abcdefg wrote:I heard Southerners used lỡ sometimes. Or is it brought there by Northerners? Wait... can it be any possibility that [l] to [ɲ] has been retained by some early Northerners there?
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:It appears to me more like a lisp than a phonetic shift.
Uhm... "Lisp" refers to the phenomenon in which sibilant consonants are consistently turned into interdental ones, which is not applicable to Vietnamese.
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:I heard Southerners used lỡ sometimes. Or is it brought there by Northerners?
I'd say lỡ is a word in the common stock, because there is no "Southern" alternative to it and it's not perceived as Northern in anyway.
Draven wrote:Anyhow, there was no documented large migration of people from Tonkin to Saigon until 1954 when the communists took Tonkin wholly from the French forcing Northern Catholics to make a run for it.
abcdefg wrote:I thought a shift was a complete change, where the older was totally displaced?
abcdefg wrote:Like would you say "công việc nhỡ nhàng" or "công việc lỡ làng" ?
abcdefg wrote:The spoken language at that time doesn't differ much with what it is now and there was not yet a Southern part to have its own creations.
Draven wrote:[l] is completely replaced by [n] and [ɲ]
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:I thought a shift was a complete change, where the older was totally displaced?
Sure. In Northern regions affected by the shift people are now incapable of pronouncing [l] even if the letter L is written down right in front of their eyes. [..]There is also the amazing northern phenomenon that people are perfectly familiar with both [l] and [n], but the two consonants switch places - when they see L they say [n], yet when they see N they say [l]. "Nực nượng lòng cốt" .
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:Like would you say "công việc nhỡ nhàng" or "công việc lỡ làng" ?
To southerners [l], [n] and [ɲ] stay right where they are. There's no mixing up or alteration. So it's lỡ, never nhỡ. Anyway, what we'd say is dở dang, not lỡ làng. We only have lỡ, which is equivalent to trót in the north I think.
Draven wrote:abcdefg wrote:The spoken language at that time doesn't differ much with what it is now and there was not yet a Southern part to have its own creations.
That's a pretty bold statement isn't it? When Saigon was founded the two kingdoms had been separated for almost 200 years with limited cultural exchange. And how can you be certain that the split started with the Đàng Trong - Đàng Ngòai schism? It could have started even prior to that you know (with Huế and Quảng Nam already contrasting with Hanoi).
Imbecilica wrote:Also, is there an equivalent to cô ấy? Since I don't know, it seems strange as most of the others are paired up.
abcdefg wrote:Draven wrote:[l] is completely replaced by [n] and [ɲ]
Can you give me examples of dialects replacing [l] by [ɲ] ? Somehow I think it's the other way around and too old-fashioned to be notable.
abcdefg wrote:But calling it a shift means you have a presumption that they did pronounce [l] before. I find it hard to understand why they omitted [l] and all of a sudden switched it for an already existed sound. Just... lost
abcdefg wrote:I asked because I notice some difference in meaning between nhỡ nhàng and lỡ làng. Lỡ làng has something to do with being late in marriage.
abcdefg wrote:The nh thing is very old-dated here yet being kept intact down there.
abcdefg wrote:I just say that maybe the first Northerners went down South expanding lands brought with them their old ways of pronunciation. Due to limited exchange, there were more chances that these old ways were kept safe against the innovations up North.
Draven wrote:The way I see it, the [l] to [ɲ] shift is only a subset of the bigger [l] to [n] shift
Draven wrote:You never see a Southerner say or write something like nhỡ nhàng. That nh-version is simply not here.
Draven wrote:Our [l] is always [l]. It doesn't deviate from the standard language in anyway.
Draven wrote:I don't know what picture you're trying to paint but it's pretty obvious to me that the word lỡ is a basic, ancient word that has been retained by both branches and is not a post-schism invention of the north.
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