Chu Nom Revival [Vietnamese]

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Kelgnaik » 2010-12-31, 15:42

Apparently, reviving Chu Nom has caused such massive unrest, that it would be best to stick to Quoc Ngu... The ladder is always easier to assemble than the more complex staircase...

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pangu » 2010-12-31, 17:40

Kelgnaik wrote:Apparently, reviving Chu Nom has caused such massive unrest, that it would be best to stick to Quoc Ngu... The ladder is always easier to assemble than the more complex staircase...
"Massive unrest"? :lol: :roll:

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby ventap1211 » 2012-04-03, 10:32

I'm afraid the answer would be no for both. Vietnam at the moment won't, as it's still developing and hard to make people go back to school to learn it over. Plus Vietnam's determination to stay independent in all aspect from the Chinese is another obstacle (Although They are still one of the most Sinicized region in all asia). For what I know, South Korea only use Hanja on special occasions but not often, I won't bet my hope on them going all Hanja again because they already got their own unique writing system and it's their national treasure too so....no.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Michael » 2012-04-04, 14:16

Forgive me Dzwee for responding to a post made over two years ago, but I find this quite a matter of interest to me, having read this whole thread (and being entertained in the process, IYKWIM). :) I'm going to respond to more posts of interest later on.

Kasuya wrote:The well-researched Japanese Wikipedia article on the subject firmly puts Vietnam in the East Asian Cultural Sphere. I'll highlight your country's name in the definition for you.

現在の地域区分で言うと「東アジア」と重なる部分が大きく、現存国家の中では、中国両岸、ベトナム、南北朝鮮、日本などがここに含まれる。

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%E5%9C%8F
I find it interesting that for such a "well-established" nation of this EA Culture Sphere, that the Japanese word for Vietnam is rendered entirely in katakana as opposed to kanji (or at least kanji + kana mix), unlike the other countries, which sort of suggests Vietnam is in fact not much of a part of this cultural circle and rather foreign.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-04-04, 15:36

Michael wrote:Forgive me Dzwee for responding to a post made over two years ago, but I find this quite a matter of interest to me, having read this whole thread (and being entertained in the process, IYKWIM). :)

This came as a surprise to me really. I remember you saying sometime ago that you're not interested in Far Eastern stuff. :o

Michael wrote:I find it interesting that for such a "well-established" nation of this EA Culture Sphere, that the Japanese word for Vietnam is rendered entirely in katakana as opposed to kanji (or at least kanji + kana mix), unlike the other countries, which sort of suggests Vietnam is in fact not much of a part of this cultural circle and rather foreign.

I think that's because Vietnam is a world away from Japan, and we know how oblivious medieval folks could be to other parts the world. Japan and the Korean kingdoms were at least neighbours, and knew each other by name. Dai Viet on the other hand was a lonely Sinic kingdom amidst a very Indic Southeast Asia, to which she was hostile. To Vietnamese scholars at the time, China was the world and the world was China. There was no knowledge of Japan up until the late 17th century.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Michael » 2012-04-04, 17:08

Tenebrarum wrote:
Michael wrote:Forgive me Dzwee for responding to a post made over two years ago, but I find this quite a matter of interest to me, having read this whole thread (and being entertained in the process, IYKWIM). :)

This came as a surprise to me really. I remember you saying sometime ago that you're not interested in Far Eastern stuff. :o
I don't have an active interest in Far Eastern stuff, but I do have a passive interest in it, as well as in Indian matters, and in much cultural and social matters as a whole. :wink:

I also find it interesting because it bares some distant resemblance to the Greek Language Question which lasted from Ottoman Liberation in the former half of the 1800's up until the 1970's. While the higher register lexicon of Vietnamese seems to be prodominantly of Sinitic (foreign) stock, that same register lexicon of Greek is derived from Ancient Greek (native) stock, and Greeks tend to use a lot of vocab of foreign origins (esp. Turkish and Italian) in informal speech.

Thus, Katharevousa, a semi-artificial compromise between old and new Greek, was created a bit after Greek independence in order to attempt to both purge Greek of this "vulgar" and/or foreign-derived vocab, and replace it with purer vocab based upon Ancient roots. Compare thyra (purer form, but not used in speech) vs. porta (colloquial and more common word for "door", and from Italian), and ichthys (word for "fish" in Ancient and Katharevousa) vs. psari (a later but nevertheless native-origin word which is the most common today).

I think that's because Vietnam is a world away from Japan, and we know how oblivious medieval folks could be to other parts the world. Japan and the Korean kingdoms were at least neighbours, and knew each other by name. Dai Viet on the other hand was a lonely Sinic kingdom amidst a very Indic Southeast Asia, to which she was hostile. To Vietnamese scholars at the time, China was the world and the world was China. There was no knowledge of Japan up until the late 17th century.
…which would have rendered that one quote of his hypocritical. I don't know how those Japanese scholars could group Vietnam under the EA Cultural Sphere if in real life the Japanese don't (or didn't) view it such, at least if in the past. Although I could be understanding some things wrong, so do excuse me.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pangu » 2012-04-04, 17:22

Michael wrote:I find it interesting that for such a "well-established" nation of this EA Culture Sphere, that the Japanese word for Vietnam is rendered entirely in katakana as opposed to kanji (or at least kanji + kana mix), unlike the other countries, which sort of suggests Vietnam is in fact not much of a part of this cultural circle and rather foreign.

Besides what Tenebrarum has mentioned, Japanese didn't start to heavily use Katakana for foreign names and words until post World War II. Prior to that usage of Katakana was only to denote foreign pronunciation and are usually placed next to or above Kanji (if a Kanji name exists such as in the case of Vietnam).

Also if you look at these two images below, you'll notice that Japanese used Kanji for location names in Vietnam:

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv13 ... onkin1.jpg
http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv13 ... onkin2.jpg
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab23 ... iaochi.jpg

Since you're quoting from Wikipedia, you should also see the Japanese Wikipedia page on Vietnam. It does include the Kanji name in historical context.

Finally, you have to understand that modern day names for China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam in their respective languages are all relatively new. In the past the names of the dynasties were mostly used officially. With that said, it doesn't necessarily mean those names didn't exist prior to modern day though. In Vietnam's case, it wasn't until 1945 did Emperor Bao Dai officially changed it to Vietnam.

So in conclusion, you have to step back and look at the bigger picture to understand this situation and not draw judgement from a single sentence from a Wikipedia entry.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby kevinhoang » 2012-04-29, 0:58

Nôm script are very hard to revive..... since it's so so so complicated. and the Country already stick to ABC . so go back to this symtem of script writting is very hard.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby sleepapnea » 2012-05-01, 2:50

Personally, I love Chu Nom - however, it is, as other users have previously mentioned, terribly inefficient and unwieldy: the reason being that it was never standardized. When there are 10 different ways to write one character with the exact same meaning, learning can be a problem. Also, since you have to have advanced knowledge of Chinese characters and their Han-Viet pronunciation, there is the problem of laziness - why not just write Han-Viet characters with pronunications corresponding to the Vietnamese words instead of going through the trouble of writing the Chu Nom?

Most of the people interested in Chu Nom will seek it out on their own - there is a plethora of books on the subject nowadays, and it is within anyone's grasp to become fluent in the written language, provided one has an extensive knowledge of Han-Viet, the different subtleties between Vietnamese dialects, and perserverence.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pangu » 2012-05-01, 15:15

sleepapnea wrote:Also, since you have to have advanced knowledge of Chinese characters and their Han-Viet pronunciation, there is the problem of laziness - why not just write Han-Viet characters with pronunications corresponding to the Vietnamese words instead of going through the trouble of writing the Chu Nom?

Most of the people interested in Chu Nom will seek it out on their own - there is a plethora of books on the subject nowadays, and it is within anyone's grasp to become fluent in the written language, provided one has an extensive knowledge of Han-Viet, the different subtleties between Vietnamese dialects, and perserverence.

I don't believe it's necessary to have knowledge of Chinese characters prior to learning Chu Nom. It definitely helps a great amount, but it isn't truly necessary as you can just learn Chu Nom was they are. It wouldn't be the most efficient way but it's possible.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Teutonius » 2012-06-27, 8:33

Vang, ban co the hoc chu Nom, ma khong can biet den chu/am Han-Viet nao ca!
Toi cung hoc nhu the, du sao toi da biet mot it tieng Trung quoc roi. Nhung dieu do thuc ra cha can thiet dau! Neu ban thich, toi co the cai dat lai nhu lieu vn ma viet chu Nom cho ma xem!?

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby binatang » 2012-07-18, 2:01

I think reviving chu nom is a great idea!

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby scsikidd » 2012-08-19, 6:38

I hate to say but the truth is you need to know Hanji before you can start learning Chu Nom. The reason I said this is because nearly 60-80% of the Vietnamese language are in Hanji, and not including other mimicking Chinese words from Chinese immigrants throughout different parts of China. A great portion of Vietnamese words was borrowed from Old-Sino-Vietnamese (From the Han dynasty through the 8th century), Sino-Vietnamese (During and after the Tang Dynasty), and Chinese words from other Chinese dialects from different provinces in China. The rest is in Nom and a very small portion borrowing from many Western languages (especially French). In my opinion, the Hanji is not that difficult to learn if you are a Vietnamese who wishes to study. It's like playing with normenclatures in organic chemistry. :D

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pangu » 2012-08-20, 4:28

scsikidd wrote:I hate to say but the truth is you need to know Hanji before you can start learning Chu Nom.

I agree that it HELPS to know Hanzi prior to learning Chu Nom but it's not necessary. It's not as if it's impossible to learn Chu Nom without Hanzi knowledge. Now if you know Vietnamese AND Hanzi then learning Chu Nom would be as easy as it gets. :)

scsikidd wrote:In my opinion, the Hanji is not that difficult to learn if you are a Vietnamese who wishes to study. It's like playing with normenclatures in organic chemistry. :D

Whether Hanzi is easy to learn or not will depend heavily on the individual and his or her own motivation. I know when I took Spanish (a language very close to English which I'm already fluent in) I thought Spanish was so hard because I was forced to take it in high school and I had absolutely no motivation to learn it. However, when I learned Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese, it came much easier because I actually wanted to learn them.

With that said, I don't know anyone who just learns Hanzi by itself. It may help to learn Mandarin while you're at it.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby fuyindefu » 2012-08-27, 5:21

Chu Nom is definitely worth the time learning for anyone already familiar with any Chinese characters at all. It will definitely help you with vocabulary retention, as well as give you further understanding and appreciation of Vietnamese culture and history. The only problem is lack of resources; when I was starting out in Vietnamese, I went through all my Vietnamese learning books and looked up each word in the online Nom Foundation dictionary to get all the Chu Nom annotated into the margins of my books. After that, things went smoother. If I had more time I would create some sort of "Learn Vietnamese" guides pre-annotated with all the characters for other learners with strong character backgrounds; maybe I'll get around to it one day.

The main problem with Chu Nom is the relative lack of standardization, as it has been used over centuries by various people. Many times, a word may be written with the two same components, one phonetic and one semantic (xingsheng construction), but with varied ways of combination, for example A on top of B, B on top of A, A left of B, A right of B, etc. While learning, I always tried to pick one choice among the options used throughout the centuries, and stick to that. There are several ways I personally like to pick out a character to be my preferred Chu Nom- I usually like to place the semantic component on the left and then the phonetic component on the right.

I still think that the basics of the characters should be taught as a school subject, or at least Vietnamese people should be taught how to write basic characters, like how to write their own name in characters at the very minimum. In cultural domains, basic characters should be used alongside Quoc Ngu. I feel that unfortunately some Vietnamese Americans somehow feel a little insecure about their culture or language, like for having no script of their own like the Koreans or Japanese, but most of the time it's just unawareness of their own history. Reintroducing Chu Nom alongside Quoc Ngu in things like signs, official documents/titles, etc. would be good for the consciousness of Vietnamese culture. It would also increase awareness among Chinese/Koreans/Japanese of the common cultural ties shared with Vietnam, which is often thought of as a SE Asian nation culturally.

On a side note, who else thinks Quoc Ngu should be modernized/streamlined a little bit? It's not bad compared to other languages like English of course, but in addition to natural language change, there are instances where decisions were made on spelling and orthography that take in some of the redundancies of Romance languages, naturally as the Jesuit missionaries were Portuguese. I would change a couple things:

- Replace all vowel -y with -i (ty > ti) - Totally arbitrary and useless if you think about it.
- Take out the -h- coming after g and ng (nghe > nge). Used only because of defectiveness in Romance orthography concerning soft and hard g.
- Merge <c>, <q>, and <k> into <k> for IPA /k/. (cung > kung). <kw> for current <qu>.
- Use <z> for d, and <d> for đ. Keep r since it's reflected in the Southern accent. I would also use <j> for the <gi> spelling.

In a more ideal world, the vowel diphthongs would be cleaned up too (I don't know how I would have learned how to pronounce them all without IPA reference- seems like none of them are actual combinations of the vowels depicted). It seems that people have resisted orthographic reform, but if the Dutch after WWII and the Germans in the 90s pulled it off successfully, I don't see why Vietnam couldn't do it.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pangu » 2012-08-27, 17:35

Very well said, fuyindefu.

I agree with both the importance of reintroduction of Chu Nom and the revision of Quoc Ngu.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby JackFrost » 2012-08-27, 19:21

fuyindefu wrote:Reintroducing Chu Nom alongside Quoc Ngu in things like signs, official documents/titles, etc. would be good for the consciousness of Vietnamese culture.

Quoc Ngu is just as valid as Chu nom since they're both a form of writing system for the people to use in communication, so the Vietnamese can still be aware and learn their own culture and history using Quoc Ngu as medium. Not using Chu Nom doesn't mean they're missing out a lot since it can be transliterated into Quoc Ngu. It hardly makes sense to me to put Chu Nom alongside Quoc Ngu because that'd be like promoting Germanic runes alongside English to increase the English speakers' cultural and historical connections with the Germanic language speakers. Or using Latin (with the Roman alphabet) alongside French to try to achieve the same goal with other Romance language speakers.

It would also increase awareness among Chinese/Koreans/Japanese of the common cultural ties shared with Vietnam, which is often thought of as a SE Asian nation culturally.

What's wrong with Vietnam being thought as a SE Asian country culturally?

- Replace all vowel -y with -i (ty > ti) - Totally arbitrary and useless if you think about it.

<Y> actually serves some purpose: <ai> and <ay>; <oai> and <oay>; <ui> and <uy> are phonologically distinct (/ɑːɪ/ and /ɑɪ/; /wɑːɪ/ and /wɑɪ/; /uɪ/ and /wɪ/). So, it's not totally useless and arbitrary as you may think.

- Take out the -h- coming after g and ng (nghe > nge). Used only because of defectiveness in Romance orthography concerning soft and hard g.

I guess the <h> could be taken out there.

- Merge <c>, <q>, and <k> into <k> for IPA /k/. (cung > kung). <kw> for current <qu>.

Eh, I see why not, but why fix what's not really broken? <C>, <q>, and <k> are always /k/ regardless of position and dialect.

- Use <z> for d

Many Vietnamese don't have /z/ in their respective dialects. Only the Northerns do and the rest have either /ɟ/ or /j/ for <d>. What you're proposing is to impose the Hanoi pronunciation on the rest of the country. Also, perhaps should we keep <d> there in order to preserve the etymological link to Middle Vietnamese /ð/? That's why the Portuguese missionaries assigned that letter for that sound.

<d> for đ.

<Đ> to represent /ɗ/ is universal in all dialects, so why touch that one? Especially when it could conflict the various pronunciations of <d>.

Keep r since it's reflected in the Southern accent.

I guess you're only saying that because proposing to replace it with <z> would conflict with <z> as replacement for <d>.

I would also use <j> for the <gi> spelling.

Why use the Central and Southern pronunciation this time? Because /z/ is also used for <gi> in the North, which again would conflict with <z> as replacement for <d> as you just proposed above.

In a more ideal world, the vowel diphthongs would be cleaned up too (I don't know how I would have learned how to pronounce them all without IPA reference- seems like none of them are actual combinations of the vowels depicted). It seems that people have resisted orthographic reform, but if the Dutch after WWII and the Germans in the 90s pulled it off successfully, I don't see why Vietnam couldn't do it.

I don't think it's too difficult to figure out the diphthongs and triphthongs as long as we know which letter positions to represent the main vowels and the semi-vowels. For the most parts, they're well represented according to their respective monophthongical representations (at least to me).

To be honest, I'd just leave the consonants alone. Maybe you could replace the <y> with <i> in some positions and using <ng> universally before all vowels instead of <ngh> before <e> and <i>. I am only concerned that your proposals could end up creating a lot of orthographical homophones and choosing one major dialectal pronunciation over another (remember, the Northern and Southern Vietnamese aren't exactly the bestest friends ever).
Last edited by JackFrost on 2012-08-28, 17:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-08-28, 13:16

What's with all this "reinforcing the East Asian identity" I keep hearing about when Westerners/foreigners throw their two cents on this topic? :? There seems to be a lot of cultural architects here doesn't it? Have you lived in VIetnam?
fuyindefu wrote: It seems that people have resisted orthographic reform, but if the Dutch after WWII and the Germans in the 90s pulled it off successfully, I don't see why Vietnam couldn't do it.

No reason for that either.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pangu » 2012-08-28, 14:58

Tenebrarum wrote:What's with all this "reinforcing the East Asian identity" I keep hearing about when Westerners/foreigners throw their two cents on this topic? :? There seems to be a lot of cultural architects here doesn't it? Have you lived in VIetnam?

First of all, good job on using "Westerners/foreigners" there to imply non-Vietnamese opinions are invalid or at least somehow less valid ;)

I have never lived in Vietnam but I have certainly been there a few times. My impression was that Vietnamese culture has both East and Southeast Asian elements, with the former more beneath the surface while the latter more on the surface. Once you get past the heat, humidity, eating green papayas and casualness of the people, that's where you see the difference between the more Sino-centric Vietnamese and their more Indo-centric mainland Southeast Asian neighbors.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby モモンガ » 2012-09-09, 13:13

In Philippiness people use Latin script most of the time, but they sometimes use Baybayin (Indic script) for things like tatoos.
I think Chu nom could be used in this way.
On restaurants to give them 'old flavour' and so on.

I think this could be the future of Chu nom.



and.. it is not connected to the main topic but...

I have found a great way to learn Vietnamese vocabulary 'for free'.





If you know Chinese or other CJKV language, you can use you knowledge to guess unknown words.


just use Chinese word with Vietnamese han tu pronunciation.


if you know that 'su dung' means 'to use' and 'menh lenh' means 'to order', you know automaticaly that mission will be 'su menh'.

You can guess a lot of new vocabulary this way. Of course be ware, that not all vocabulary will be identical, it works only from time to time....

tu = from

dong vat = animal

so

tu dong = automatic

simple as pie.

So learning Han tu can be useful, but only if you already know some Chinese/Japanese/Korean.
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