Chu Nom Revival [Vietnamese]

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby JackFrost » 2009-02-06, 7:23

Why?? I only skimmed but the paper seemed to prove that Vietnamese is clearly a language on its own, branched Mon-Khmer, rather than another Sinicized victim.

I suppose we're reading a different paper. The one I was reading was so big and the guy tried his best to make it so-so academic. :D
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby abcdefg » 2009-02-06, 12:26

JackFrost wrote:I suppose we're reading a different paper.

Yeah, as I used Google VN and jumped rite on the first result :D
Tôi kể người nghe chuyện Phố-trong-sông,
chuyện những mùa Đông đi qua thời con gái.
Bóng đổ dài, bước chân người mê mải
Gió chở mùa về,
hoang hoải cả giấc mơ..

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby JackFrost » 2009-02-07, 3:05

abcdefg wrote:
JackFrost wrote:I suppose we're reading a different paper.

Yeah, as I used Google VN and jumped rite on the first result :D

Do you mean this one? :D

I was reading that one... Be warned of the BS spread all over the place.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby abcdefg » 2009-02-07, 13:42

JackFrost wrote:Do you mean this one? :D

:yep:
JackFrost wrote:I was reading that one... Be warned of the BS spread all over the place.

version 8.8 O.O No I'll read it later, when I have enough time and courage.
Tôi kể người nghe chuyện Phố-trong-sông,
chuyện những mùa Đông đi qua thời con gái.
Bóng đổ dài, bước chân người mê mải
Gió chở mùa về,
hoang hoải cả giấc mơ..

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby polishboy » 2009-02-08, 19:12

hmm!
I would liek it too!
I have found a Japanese langues course for Vietnamese.. and they included the Vietnamese reading of each kanji!
and on Vietnamese soups in Poland, and one restaurant I often see they write Chinese chracters.
1.晩


Vãn


ばん

2.飲みます


Ẩm


のみます

3.何時


Hà thời


なんじ

4.朝


Triều


あさ

5.高校


Cao hiệu


こうこう

6.友達


Hữu đạt


ともだち

7.忙しい


Mang


いそがしい

8.時間


Thời gian


じかん

9.月曜日


Nguyệt diệu nhật


げつようび

10.休みます


Hưu


やすみます

11.週末


Chu mạt


しゅうまつ

12.自分


Tự phân


じぶん

13.勉強


Miễn cường


べんきょう

14.本


Bản


ほん

15.知ります


Tri


しります

16.本屋


Bản ốc


ほんや

17.お寺


Tự


おてら

18.聞きます


Văn


ききます

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby JackFrost » 2009-02-09, 0:04

one restaurant I often see they write Chinese chracters.

Not necessary Chu nom however.

Here, it's not unusual to put Chinese translations in the menu with English, French, and Vietnamese. The Chinese restos would often do the same putting Vietnamese as one of the translations.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Tenebrarum » 2009-02-09, 14:49

polishboy wrote:and on Vietnamese soups in Poland, and one restaurant I often see they write Chinese chracters

For an unmistakable East Asian feel, no doubt. We all know stereotypes sell.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby polishboy » 2009-02-11, 23:00

JackFrost wrote:
one restaurant I often see they write Chinese chracters.

Not necessary Chu nom however.

Here, it's not unusual to put Chinese translations in the menu with English, French, and Vietnamese. The Chinese restos would often do the same putting Vietnamese as one of the translations.


no! they wrote it in front of the restaurant!
Image
I found on their website!
hmmm...
but they wrote that they are Vietnamese-Chinese.. so mabye...

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby polishboy » 2009-02-11, 23:02

Draven wrote:
polishboy wrote:and on Vietnamese soups in Poland, and one restaurant I often see they write Chinese chracters

For an unmistakable East Asian feel, no doubt. We all know stereotypes sell.


but not all characters are in Chinese!

I asked one Chinese and she did not knew.
Even thought she knew many characers.

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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby ILuvEire » 2009-02-12, 1:25

Draven wrote:
polishboy wrote:and on Vietnamese soups in Poland, and one restaurant I often see they write Chinese chracters

For an unmistakable East Asian feel, no doubt. We all know stereotypes sell.


Plus, characters are pretty. Quoc ngu just throws people off pronunciation :P.

Anyway, I thought I would reply to the OP.

I don't think that Chu Nom should ever come back as the Vietnamese writing system. It was unwieldy (like Japanese's kanji). Quoc ngu words really well for Vietnamese.

EDIT: Also, on the topic of the Polish restaurant, most "Chinese" immigrants around the world are Cantonese. Does that sign use Cantonese, maybe? Also, they could be traditional (they look traditional) and your friend only reads simplified.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Tenebrarum » 2009-02-12, 4:52

polishboy wrote:but not all characters are in Chinese!

I asked one Chinese and she did not know.
Even thought she knew many characters.

I don't know, could be some Classical verses containing obsolete characters. But as far as the look of the resto is concerned, there's nothing recognizably Vietnamese about it.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby JackFrost » 2009-02-12, 4:57

Oh that. They didn't write it. They brought it from somewhere, most likely from China. ;)

It's associated with religion. It doesn't mean they (the Vietnamese) always understand what it means though.

Perhaps it's too poetic or something, since your friend cannot recognize it.

And from the look of the resto, it looks too Chinese to me. :?

I don't know, could be some Classical verses containing obsolete characters. But as far as the look of the resto is concerned, there's nothing recognizably Vietnamese about it.

I would've expected artworks made from polished black wood (or stone?) with designs using polished seashells embedded in.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Kasuya » 2009-02-12, 20:44

It's Chinese.

財源廣進 CAI YUAN GUANG JIN May the revenue increase. 財源がさらに拡大するよう

生意興隆 SHENG YI XING LONG May the business flourish. 商売が繁盛するように


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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Imbecilica » 2009-03-14, 16:15

I personally like Chữ Nôm even though it doesn't represent Vietnamese a hundred percent. However, considering the amount of Chinese loan words and influence in general, plus the relatively similar phonology, Chữ Nôm deserves to be more recognised and preserved even if it's not reinstated any time soon. Fact is, once it's lost, there goes nearly a thousand years of history, a cultural asset dead and buried. Thankfully, there are efforts to preserve it, however here are a few reasons why it would not be a good idea to reinstate it at this moment in time:

1. It would require all Vietnamese to perhaps learn thousands or so Chinese characters at the minimum and then learn how to write Chu Nom as well. It would be too much of a hassle and people may obliged to object it.

2. Typing it may be a bit of a hassle but not so much as to deem it untypable.

3. The lack of standardisation means that for any one character it may have multiple ways of writing it and possibly causing confusion. Also, many words today did not exist back in the days when Chu Nom was still used.

However, it still needs to be preserved. Currently it is estimated that fewer than 100 people mostly individuals can read and write in it fluently. If there is noone to share their knowledge, then Chu Nom may be lost within a few generations. However, I personally don't think it will be lost any time soon. It is and will be preserved. I would love to be able to know how to write it especially for art and calligraphy.
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Tenebrarum » 2009-03-14, 17:48

Imbecilica wrote:I personally like Chữ Nôm even though it doesn't represent Vietnamese a hundred percent.

It's only good at representing Chinese loans, for which we only need its standard Hanzi part. To the purely Vietnamese lexicon however it's just as foreign as the Roman script we're using now. Like I said, nothing has ever been truly ours.

Nôm is fine where it's at. There's no point in resurrecting dinosaurs; you don't know how much damage they can do to the current ecosystem.

JackFrost wrote:I would've expected artworks made from polished black wood (or stone?) with designs using polished seashells embedded in.

Like this or this? It has a name - sơn mài. Keep calling it lacquer if you insist, but the techniques are not quite like that in China, Japan or Korea. But who knows... It could ultimately come from the Chinese as well. :lol:
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby JackFrost » 2009-03-14, 18:03

More like this.

Image
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pepper » 2009-11-02, 8:28

I support the revival of Chu Nom, but of course under certain conditions. There is no realistic expectation of seeing it overtake Quoc Ngu, at this point, but I believe that it would be nice just to have Chu Nom there for some of the reasons presented by the supporter(s) of Chu Nom earlier in the thread. Leaving aside arguments over Vietnam's history with China, etc., I believe that if Chu Nom is to be resurrected as a viable writing system (just for the sake of it, and maybe people will adopt it, who knows?) then it must be:

1) Standardized
2) Simplified
3) Updated to accommodate new vocabulary
4) Optimized, in general

I doubt that Chu Nom, or "Modern Chu Nom," if it is to be revived and optimized, will ever overtake Quoc Ngu. However, if it did, then I'd be pretty happy to say the least. If anything, however, I wouldn't be surprised if an entirely new script arose and overtook Quoc Ngu sometime in the future; likely something with an Eastern Asian feel, but with a much shallower learning curve than Hanzi or the Japanese writing system. I was thinking something along the lines of a Vietnamese Hangul, something I will probably be discussing a lot in my future life here on Unilang :).
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Tenebrarum » 2009-11-02, 11:39

Pepper wrote:If anything, however, I wouldn't be surprised if an entirely new script arose and overtook Quoc Ngu sometime in the future; likely something with an Eastern Asian feel, but with a much shallower learning curve than Hanzi or the Japanese writing system. I was thinking something along the lines of a Vietnamese Hangul, something I will probably be discussing a lot in my future life here on Unilang :).

May I ask, why do you think the "Asianness" of the Vietnamese language and people has to be embodied by a newly made-up non-Roman script with an "Eastern" feel?

It bugs me that most people have this disturbing view, according to which Quốc Ngữ is a East-West hybrid abomination which has no history or tradition behind it whatsoever, and should be aborted at once. If Quốc Ngữ were a building, mind you, it would have been a structure of more than 400 years of age, with unique features, exciting history and physical vestiges of time and all. What shall I label them then, if they think such a building is a mumbo-jumbo destitute of historical values, that ought to be demolished?

To me it's only logical that when resources are limited, they should be employed to preserve and renovate the 400 year old building in question, rather than reconstructing, with an arguable level of faithfulness, a medieval structure having long collapsed. Replacing it with a modern skyscraper designed to capture the "East Asian essence" that would likely end up hideous like Taipei 101? Oh, and the Vietnamese culture is not exactly East Asian, hello?
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Kasuya » 2009-11-02, 16:26

Draven wrote:To me it's only logical that when resources are limited, they should be employed to preserve and renovate the 400 year old building in question, rather than reconstructing, with an arguable level of faithfulness, a medieval structure having long collapsed.

So being consequent, do you think that the revival of Hebrew as an everyday language was a waste of resources?

Replacing it with a modern skyscraper designed to capture the "East Asian essence" that would likely end up hideous like Taipei 101?

Interesting that you think that. I think Taipei 101 looks fantastic.

Oh, and the Vietnamese culture is not exactly East Asian, hello?

That's funny, what do you suppose that country down at the bottom of the East Asian Cultural Sphere is then?
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Re: Chu Nom Revival

Postby Pepper » 2009-11-02, 22:30

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, but as for Vietnam's culture supposedly not being "East Asian," I would have to regrettably tell you that you're incorrect on that point. Despite being geographically a Southeast Asian country, Vietnam is widely considered by many factual bodies and reputable sources to have been highly influenced enough by Chinese culture to be considered part of the Sinosphere.

As for the analogy about the building, I believe that it's not as black and white as you presented. The problem here is that the building is not perfectly suited for Vietnamese, and so by restarting on a new canvas completely, you can create a system that is tailor made for Vietnamese. Because of Quoc Ngu's young age, that means there isn't as much momentum behind it, meaning it would be easier to "abort" now than later. I understand what you mean when you talk about a country with limited resources, but I never said that this should be the main focus of the country right now. I am simply thinking wishfully, and maybe the issue of script will come up sometime in the future when Vietnam gets on some better footing.

Many Eastern Asian values have already been etched into Vietnam's culture, and it would only be natural for it to continue on the same "cultural route" on which it already treads. Even if Quoc Ngu is "working," that doesn't mean that it should be the end-all solution for the language. If languages were just about "what worked" and nothing more, then we'd be faced with a lot more countries with the Roman alphabet system. For example: Pinyin has been developed far enough to completely replace China's current writing system, but it hasn't. Why? Because there China retains some of its "pride" towards its national heritage. Japanese can be easily written with the roman alphabet, perhaps a version that is slightly improved from simply current Romaji, but yet the Japanese still stick with their Kana + Kanji. The Japanese have resisted a Western script and have stayed true to their "national heritage," even if it clearly has Chinese influence. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that the Japanese, even though they enjoy distancing themselves from China nowadays, recognize their close ties with Chinese culture as something innate to them, and I am of the opinion that Vietnam should too.

As for a script having East Asian influence, I don't see any problem with it. In my opinion, it's certainly leaps and bounds more culturally "accurate" than Quoc Ngu, but I'm sure the BEST solution overall would be to create a script tailor made for Vietnamese. And, even if it does have remnants or influence from Chinese characters, it only makes sense; Vietnam is part of the cultural Sinosphere. Look at Korea, one of the main reasons why they look down on Hanja is because of its ties back to China, yet Hangul itself (which you should consider to be tailor made for Korean) still has obvious Chinese influence. Heck, some of the parts of their script are Chinese characters in and of themselves.

On another note: As for the geographical location of Vietnam, there is even debate as to what really defines the geographical location of countries that span more than one "region." If you look at a map, there are no distinct lines that separate where Southeast Asia starts and where East Asia ends. Rather, people just group countries by their borders for the sake of organization by nation. If it really were a case of some definitive line, then you would consider Taiwan a part of Southeast Asia, or North Vietnam to be part of East Asia. It's all a really confusing matter, but it's not the topic of discussion here anyway :).
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