The main argument against Chinese characters in general is that they are difficult to learn however studies* conducted with school students in Setagaya-ku, Tokyo have shown that Chinese characters are actually not a burden on students.
An example of increased wealth bringing about elements of language revival is Gaelic in Ireland.
JackFrost wrote:The Vietnamese cannot handle two spelling systems at once. Chu Nom died for a very good reason: it kept way too many people illiterate. An example: Japanese is already a nightmare with its three sets of writing systems.
JackFrost wrote:And finally, there are only a handful of scholars that are capable of writing and reading Vietnamese in Chu Nom. That means, the government would have to spend millions of dollars (or billions of dongs if you must) and at least a decade of work teaching the teachers the script that they never learnt as a child. It'd be a bitch to teach old dogs new tricks as the teachers are often middle-aged now. God know that the Vietnamese are sometimes stubborn as a mule.
It'd be easier if the students learn Chinese instead of furthering complicating their own language for the convidence of the Chinese, a language is not completely related to Vietnamese.
Because the Japanese could understand many of the Chinese characters by comparing them to the kanji script.
The hard part is to know if such wealtier families are sending their children to Gaelic schools because it's "cool" to learn Gaelic. And sometimes the quality of Gaelic taught in school and spoken by such students are just "awful" according to many serious Gaelic speakers. So what would stop the Vietnamese teachers from teaching Chu Nom so awfully if they don't know it so well.
eskandar wrote:Aside from the fact that many Vietnamese harbor resentment towards the Chinese and would not favor re-introducing a Chinese elements into their culture, it's simply unnecessary and adds a great deal of difficulty to Vietnamese, whereas the benefits are virtually nil.
eskandar wrote:JackFrost wrote:The Vietnamese cannot handle two spelling systems at once. Chu Nom died for a very good reason: it kept way too many people illiterate. An example: Japanese is already a nightmare with its three sets of writing systems.
This is a silly statement; the Vietnamese are perfectly capable of handling as many different spelling systems as any other people on Earth.
lichtrausch wrote:We're talking about a national heritage here. Do you realize what lengths and costs governments go to to preserve a national heritage?
lichtrausch wrote:I can think of a number of significant benefits:
Vietnamese people could then read the original versions of the classics of their literature.
Being able to better understand and use the thousands of Chinese loan words within Vietnamese.
With knowledge of Chu Nom, learning Chinese would be far easier.
lichtrausch wrote:As Vietnam is becoming more wealthy, people are starting to spend more time thinking about matters other than rudimentary life. People will no doubt spend more time studying Vietnamese heritage which will surely lead to increased interest in Chu Nom.
lichtrausch wrote:Why on earth would the Vietnamese change to Chu Nom for the convenience of the Chinese?
eskandar wrote:This is a silly statement.
lichtrausch wrote:We're talking about a national heritage here. Do you realize what lengths and costs governments go to to preserve a national heritage?
Why on earth would the Vietnamese change to Chu Nom for the convenience of the Chinese?
I think you're mixed up. Kanji is the Japanese word for "Chinese characters".
Vietnamese people could then read the original versions of the classics of their literature.
Being able to better understand and use the thousands of Chinese loan words within Vietnamese.
With knowledge of Chu Nom, learning Chinese would be far easier.
JackFrost wrote:The Vietnamese could tell whether the word is Mon-Khmer or Sinitic by following this rule: if you can change the tone without changing the meaning of the word, it's Mon-Khmer. If you change the meaning with the tone shift, it's Sinitic.
(Draven, correct me if I am mistaken. You mentioned this not too long ago).
That rule is false anyway, as you can easily change a native word's meaning by changing its tone: mắt (eye) vs. mặt (face) for example.
To ask how a Vietnamese spots a Sinitic word is exactly the same as asking how an English speaker recognises a Latinate or Greek word - if you can break the word into smaller semantic parts, it's native; whereas if it's completely cryptic and you find yourself resorting to folk etymology, it's borrowed. But then there are also borrowings so perfectly naturalised that you wouldn't think of them as such, like stay in English and chìm (to sink) in Vietnamese, which are early borrowings from Middle French and Early Middle Chinese respectively.
Draven wrote:But we don't want to, that's the point. Actually using multiple systems at once is simply an extraterrestrial concept to most Vietnamese. All the learners of Japanese I know always complain about how that language needs too many scripts and they wonder if it's because the Japanese have so much time in their hands. To the Vietnamese mind you either use one script or another, but certainly not both.
Besides, putting Chinese characters next to Roman letters would result in a hilarious sight.
Chữ Nôm is a very unwieldy and ineffective script
3. Remember that Mandarin in mainland China now uses the simplified Hanzi. If you dig up the set of characters used in feudal Vietnam, you'll see that it's rickety old and outdated (duh!). I see no concrete benefit there.
As for the supposed rise of Mandarin and Chinese characters, I must say that I don't see it here at all. Saigon always has an active and visible Chinese community, they speak various southern Chinese languages and opt for Vietnamese as their lingua franca. Sure, many people in Vietnam watch trashy Chinese television dramas (dubbed with Vietnamese) and listen to trashy Chinese pop music (translated to Vietnamese), but for the vast majority that's as far as it goes. Like I said in the "What are popular foreign languages in your country?" thread (or smth like that), the only realistic choice of foreign language in Vietnam is English. It's what really hot now, and I don't see that changing in the next decade.
JackFrost wrote:In the past it wasn't so silly as Chu nom was almost exclusively used by the elite class. This resulted its death in the early 20th century in favour of Quoc ngu. That is why I said it died for a very good reason due to, as you said, socio-economic situtation.
I doubt that the Vietnamese see Chu nom as their heritage because it's not of their creation and is an import. They're more likely to be attached to the language itself instead as their common heritage.
Which is now written and preserved in Quoc ngu. All they had to do is decode the script and encode such literature into another without changing the structure of the language itself. The literature will be still original because it doesn't change the language, but the script.
I could write French or English in Cyrillic without changing the linguistic structures to fit into the mould.
JackFrost wrote:eskandar wrote:This is a silly statement.
In the past it wasn't so silly as Chu nom was almost exclusively used by the elite class. This resulted its death in the early 20th century in favour of Quoc ngu. That is why I said it died for a very good reason due to, as you said, socio-economic situtation.
The classic example of this is "minh" which when written as 明 means bright and 冥 means dark.
There's a huge benefit. If you know Chu Nom, then you have a solid foundation in Chinese characters. It would be a similar benefit as Japanese have when learning Chinese.
Chu Nom isn't a creation of Vietnamese people? That's news to me. Every Vietnamese I have ever talked to said "we created a writing system based off of the Chinese script."
Apples and oranges. Chinese characters hold much more information than letters of an alphabet. If you rewrite something written in Chu Nom into Quoc Ngu, you lose information and it's no longer the original.
JackFrost wrote:Where did I say it died off because it was simply difficult. You're making assumption upon assumption.
JackFrost wrote:Chu Nom died for a very good reason: it kept way too many people illiterate
JackFrost wrote:I'm having trouble finding in two dictionaries where "minh" stands alone and has the meaning of "dark", apart from one entry saying "không minh bạch". "Minh" are in compound words so far, all of which mean "clear/light".
lichtrausch wrote:Chữ Nôm is a very unwieldy and ineffective script
Is it somehow more ineffective than the rather effective Hanzi writing system?
lichtrausch wrote:Chu Nom isn't a creation of Vietnamese people? That's news to me. Every Vietnamese I have ever talked to said "we created a writing system based off of the Chinese script."
lichtrausch wrote:The economic data and prognoses for China give people many good reasons to learn Chinese. You may not notice these trends in current everyday life, but they are indicators of things to come. This thread is not about the present, but rather about coming decades.
eskandar wrote:One advantage is that words of Chinese origin which are homophones in Vietnamese can be distinguished in Chu Nom. The classic example of this is "minh" which when written as 明 means bright and 冥 means dark.
eskandar wrote:the French colonial government made it the official script of Vietnamese
Draven wrote:eskandar wrote:One advantage is that words of Chinese origin which are homophones in Vietnamese can be distinguished in Chu Nom. The classic example of this is "minh" which when written as 明 means bright and 冥 means dark.
The dark minh is largely gone anyway, we only see its remnants in some placenames. And I don't feel sorry for obscure Chinese elements like that - loanwords come and go, what needs preserving is the native lexicon. A (non-nerdy) English speaker couldn't care less if words like mansuetude go extinct now could s/he?
Draven wrote:eskandar wrote:the French colonial government made it the official script of Vietnamese
The French was not that enthusiastic about it. They discouraged the use of Vietnamese. It was Ho Chi Minh who brought Quốc Ngữ to its throne and, when you read this, please remember that he was a brilliant poet who loved classical Chinese and wrote Tang poems while in jail.
eskandar wrote:But did you somehow miss the bold text in my last post, which stated my main rebuttal to your argument, that Chu Nom fell out of use because it was ineffective or ill-suited to Vietnamese? Your other remarks to me are almost completely irrelevant.
I will never understand why people argue passionately about things they know so little about.
eskandar wrote:But I think it's wonderful that we have so many words from different sources. [...] That's why I think Vietnamese shouldn't be so indifferent (or hostile) to the Chinese loans.
eskandar wrote:However, I think Chinese (or at least Chu Nom) should be taught in Vietnamese schools, for the reasons I've stated above. People in English-speaking countries (used to) study Latin in school to help with their English, Iranians study Arabic in school to help with their Persian, so I think Vietnamese should study Chinese to learn more about the Chinese elements in their language.
JackFrost wrote:There's a huge benefit. If you know Chu Nom, then you have a solid foundation in Chinese characters. It would be a similar benefit as Japanese have when learning Chinese.
The trouble is, not many people know Chu nom. Only a handful of scholars have an extensive knowledge of it.
How can you lose information? Chu nom is Vietnamese written in Chinese characters. Take the information out of a character and put it in Quoc ngu. There is a software where you can simply enter the Vietnamese words in Quoc ngu to get them converted into Chu nom.
So I fail to see the difference between "apples and oranges", so perhaps they're really all apples after all.
Draven wrote:Look, I don't want to comment on the nature of ideogram. But Nôm is in fact a derivative of Hanzi. It's basically Hanzi as long as you write Chinese words. What makes it a nightmare is how it handles the native ones. I'm not sure you have seen some of the rules, because if you have, you must conclude that it's crazy and only for the intelligent.
lichtrausch wrote:Languages are rarely developed with simplicity in mind. I don't understand how you can call Chu Nom ineffective when it served Vietnam well for 1000 years. Certainly no worse than the Latin script served Western Europe or the Japanese script served Japan. I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Vietnamese using Quoc Ngu or Chu Nom but I do believe that (a standardized) Chu Nom is a viable alternative.
JackFrost wrote:How can you lose information? Chu nom is Vietnamese written in Chinese characters.
(google "What's so Chinese about Vietnamese?")
is still only another theory, an unfinished work, not quite satisfactorily proven yet.
JackFrost wrote:(google "What's so Chinese about Vietnamese?")
Well, I wish I haven't done that now.
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