Persian Study Group

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vijayjohn
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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-26, 19:02

I'm hoping I've simply tempted you into studying Persian. :twisted:

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby voron » 2018-08-26, 20:25

vijayjohn wrote:OOOOOOO rojbaaaaaş! :D
(dangles bottle of Shiraz in front of voron's eyes)
You are feeling sleepy...sleeeepyy...when I snap my fingers...you will join this group and start studying Persian.

Sorry, I am so loyal to my three lovers (or wives?) -- Turkish, Kurdish and Arabic -- that I simply can't engage in other relationships, apart from maybe staring a bit from afar. :D

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-08-26, 23:22

Nice try Vijay, but I need to catch up on my other study groups first.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-27, 23:17

Oh sorry, that was a reply to your "what have you done, Vijay!" I was afraid maybe you thought I'd forgotten all about German and Japanese (I haven't :P).

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-08-28, 16:13

vijayjohn wrote:Also, seeing this picture on WIkipedia and reading a bit about it made me realize that there is a closer connection between you and me than I would have ever imagined: ...

Fascinating!

Is تاج قرغان a misspelling/alternative spelling/folk etymology or something for Tashkorghan? Is it really pronounced that way?

In parts of the world where literacy is low and standardizing institutions (schools, the state) have less of a presence, you definitely see a number of spellings for the same thing. This could be a sort of folk spelling. Lots of originally non-Persian placenames get reanalyzed as having Persian etymons, cf. Ashgabat (عشق آباد) or Peshawar (پیش آور).

Here I've corrected your translation:
► Show Spoiler


سی مو - to me?
قدوم - footstep?

Where are these from?

بزاره - may (s)he put?? (What's the infinitive form of this verb?)

It's misspelled. Should be بذاره which is colloquial for بگذارد (infinitive گذاشتن).

چک چک - drop by drop

Yes but at least in Afghan Persian چک چک زدن is to applaud or clap.

سو - direction? sight?

direction

شان - dignity(?)

The word here is شانه 'shoulder'.

نصیب - portion; destiny(?)

Yes. Your destiny or fate is your 'portion', your lot in life. The same metaphor is at work in قسمت.

بو - smell, odor?

Yes, here used positively, like scent or fragrance. (In other contexts it could be odor or smell).

خار - thorn?

Yep! Remember the girl has been compared to a flower, hence the thorn metaphor.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-09-02, 20:00

Thank you so much for all your help and detailed replies on this thread! I feel like this process is really helping me improve my Persian without even trying all that hard. :mrgreen: It's also helping me to make sense of things. Trust me to forget that words can end with ه, though! :lol:
eskandar wrote:
سی مو - to me?
قدوم - footstep?

Where are these from?

From هوار هوار:

كاشكی بيايه سی مو بهار بياره
هر دو قدومش روی چشام بذاره

All right, this time, I'm doing something even harder. :P It may seem silly, but it's just because there are some things I've wanted to ask for years, and I've finally found a way to do it!

Here's a Tajik song I discovered in the songs thread years ago, closer to when I joined UniLang. I've always wanted to make sense of the lyrics. All I've ever found for both the lyrics and their meaning is this, which still leaves a lot of mystery for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjWlZFTE3JQ
I tried writing out what the lyrics sound like to me in Cyrillic, but I'm not sure whether my spelling is right and/or some of my words are totally off (of course, I mainly used the link to try and guess). I need help making out the words to the third verse since I certainly don't hear pato nazar (instead, I hear [tɔr tu masav], and [jagɔv ʃɔnav] at the beginning of the next line, but I have no idea what either of those could possibly mean). :( I'm leaving out all the repetitive parts in between these verses:
► Show Spoiler

And in Perso-Arabic script:
► Show Spoiler

And I guess my attempt at a translation to English would be:
► Show Spoiler

And here's a Persian song I posted once, by Hassan Shojaei again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwVhTLAL_9Q
The lyrics, which I just typed out because the URL I got them from doesn't work anymore and I kind of memorized them:
► Show Spoiler

My attempt at a translation:
► Show Spoiler

New vocab (plus some vocab I forgot to list last time):

زیر - low
بهانه - request
ابرو - eyebrow
پر - feather; figuratively wing? (also 'full', but I kind of knew that)
بال - wing
برابر - equal (thought this meant 'together' because of Turkish beraber :shock:)
افسانه - legend (I keep forgetting this doesn't just mean 'story')
گذر - passage(way), progress
سرسام - delirium
واله - infatuated
شیدا - crazy
کور - blind
سحر - dawn
طناز - flirty?
ور - direction, side?
دیار - region (basically land :P)
کران - beach
گلگشت - pleasure-ground
حتی - very (as in "that very")?
لاله - tulip
شقایق - poppy
دقایق - minutes?
حسرت - yearning
چو - like
پر پر - many-leaved?

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-11-30, 20:12

vijayjohn wrote:From هوار هوار:

كاشكی بيايه سی مو بهار بياره
هر دو قدومش روی چشام بذاره

I think the song هوار هوار (which, by the way, was remade into a hit Urdu song in Pakistan, then a hit in India as well, and eventually a Bengali version too) is in a southern dialect, maybe Shirazi. So there are plenty of non-standard features (بیایه instead of written بیاید or Tehrani بیاد , for example). I'm not sure what the سی مو part is exactly. قدوم is قدم as you guessed. قدم روی چشم is an idiomatic expression for when someone is very welcome.

I'll try to help you with the Tajik song some other time.

My attempt at a translation:
► Show Spoiler

New vocab (plus some vocab I forgot to list last time):

زیر - low, under
بهانه - request, excuse
ابرو - eyebrow
پر - feather; figuratively wing? (also 'full', but I kind of knew that)
بال - wing
برابر - equal (thought this meant 'together' because of Turkish beraber :shock:)
افسانه - legend (I keep forgetting this doesn't just mean 'story')
گذر - passage(way), progress
سرسام - delirium
واله - infatuated
شیدا - crazy
کور - blind
سحر - dawn
طناز - flirty?
ور - direction, side?
دیار - region (basically land :P)
کران - beach end, limit, border, boundary (and so, by extension, could be "shore")
گلگشت - pleasure-ground, garden/flowery place for strolling
حتی - very (as in "that very")? [yes, sort of - "even" as in "even I don't know"]
لاله - tulip
شقایق - poppy
دقایق - minutes?
حسرت - yearning
چو - like
پر پر - many-leaved, aflutter
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-01, 3:31

eskandar wrote:I think the song هوار هوار (which, by the way, was remade into a hit Urdu song in Pakistan, then a hit in India as well, and eventually a Bengali version too)

I know. The only reason why I know any of these songs is because you posted all of them once. :D
is in a southern dialect, maybe Shirazi. So there are plenty of non-standard features (بیایه instead of written بیاید or Tehrani بیاد , for example). I'm not sure what the سی مو part is exactly. قدوم is قدم as you guessed. قدم روی چشم is an idiomatic expression for when someone is very welcome.

Oh OK, thanks! Maybe I can find someone from Shiraz who can help me demystify that a bit more. :hmm: I'm sure at least someone in my family knows someone from Shiraz.
I'll try to help you with the Tajik song some other time.

Yay, thanks! And thanks so much for all your help again! :mrgreen:

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby Limagne » 2018-12-01, 20:10

سی مو means 'for me'.

In several Southern dialects, سی is the equivalent of واسه (which itself is a colloquial alternative to برای) :wink:

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-12-01, 22:52

Welcome back Limagne, and thanks! I knew مو must have something to do with "me" (it means من in Southern/Southwestern dialects, right?) but had no idea about سی .
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-02, 5:02

Thanks, Limagne and eskandar (and welcome back to both of you)! I'm at least vaguely familiar with واسه (and what it means), but I didn't know that was a colloquial alternative to برای, only that برای is often pronounced بروی (I guess this is the Tehrooni pronunciation?).

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-12-03, 17:30

vijayjohn wrote:I'm at least vaguely familiar with واسه (and what it means), but I didn't know that was a colloquial alternative to برای, only that برای is often pronounced بروی (I guess this is the Tehrooni pronunciation?).

Yes, واسه is very colloquial and is not used in writing. بروی doesn't exist in the Tehrani dialect, where you would either use واسه or برای , the latter of which often shortened to برا .
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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-04, 4:12

So what is بروی then? Because I've definitely heard people use it. For instance, Shohreh Solati and Mahsa both use it in their songs, and at least Shohreh is from Tehran (no idea about Mahsa). :hmm:

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-12-04, 4:31

I've never heard it, unless I'm just missing something here. Can you post an example of where you're hearing this in a song?
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-04, 4:41

Wait, never mind, I think I was confusing it all these years with به روی. :shock: Oops!

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-12-31, 1:09

I didn't comment on the Tajik video before because I'm not that familiar with Tajik, especially spoken Tajik. I don't know that I can be of much help here. You need someone like Limagne or linguanima (neither of whom are active on Unilang anymore, as far as I know) who is more experienced with Tajik.

vijayjohn wrote:؟؟؟ در دله که نازکم
؟؟؟ آه دل زورکم

I couldn't get these parts either. But the last word in these two lines is زارکم not زورکم . It's زار plus the diminutive suffix -ak.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby Limagne » 2019-01-04, 12:51

vijayjohn wrote:Here's a Tajik song I discovered in the songs thread years ago, closer to when I joined UniLang. I've always wanted to make sense of the lyrics. All I've ever found for both the lyrics and their meaning is this, which still leaves a lot of mystery for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjWlZFTE3JQ
I tried writing out what the lyrics sound like to me in Cyrillic, but I'm not sure whether my spelling is right and/or some of my words are totally off (of course, I mainly used the link to try and guess). I need help making out the words to the third verse since I certainly don't hear pato nazar (instead, I hear [tɔr tu masav], and [jagɔv ʃɔnav] at the beginning of the next line, but I have no idea what either of those could possibly mean). :( I'm leaving out all the repetitive parts in between these verses:


I have checked the song and I have to say understanding those two verses was not very easy at first. Here is what I think she says:
تارْ تو مزن بر دلکِ نازکم
یک آه شُنَو‌ آهِ دلِ زارکم


At first, I was unsure if it was تار تو or تارتوق (which means ‘gift’), but تارتوق made no sense with مزن, so I’m pretty sure it’s تار .تو

تار refers ot the musical instrument, of course. 

دلک is just دل and the diminutive suffix ‘ak’, which Tajiks use a whole lot more than Iranians.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby Limagne » 2019-01-04, 13:48

voron wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:OOOOOOO rojbaaaaaş! :D
(dangles bottle of Shiraz in front of voron's eyes)
You are feeling sleepy...sleeeepyy...when I snap my fingers...you will join this group and start studying Persian.

Sorry, I am so loyal to my three lovers (or wives?) -- Turkish, Kurdish and Arabic -- that I simply can't engage in other relationships, apart from maybe staring a bit from afar. :D


از دور شاید دید در ماه

One should behold the moon from afar 8-)

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-01-09, 7:44

Thank you so much for all your help in this thread, Eskandar Bhai and Limagne! :mrgreen:
Limagne wrote:I have checked the song and I have to say understanding those two verses was not very easy at first. Here is what I think she says:
تارْ تو مزن بر دلکِ نازکم
یک آه شُنَو‌ آهِ دلِ زارکم


At first, I was unsure if it was تار تو or تارتوق (which means ‘gift’), but تارتوق made no sense with مزن, so I’m pretty sure it’s تار .تو

تار refers ot the musical instrument, of course. 

دلک is just دل and the diminutive suffix ‘ak’, which Tajiks use a whole lot more than Iranians.

So what does that mean? Something like this?

The tar is in a cloud on my fragile heart.
Listen to a sigh, the sigh of my wounded heart!


Anyway, this time, I'm trying to translate another Iranian song and a Hazaragi song! The Iranian song is another song by Hassan Shojaei called "Parastooha":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA56RsCw5wY
(There's another less complete video of the same song here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNbe_iTUGuU).

Lyrics:
► Show Spoiler

My attempt at a translation:
► Show Spoiler

And the Hazaragi song is "Watandar" by Seeta Qasemi (I've stolen the translation of the first line from eskandar, of course :P):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B92Zey-ZqC4
Lyrics: http://www.afghanpedia.com/projects/mus ... 8%A7%D8%B1

My attempt at a translation:
► Show Spoiler

And these are the new vocabulary words from these songs (including the two lines from the Tajik one) plus some more from LangMedia. (I know some of these words at least have a bunch of other meanings besides the ones I've listed here, but at least I get the impression that these are the relevant meanings in the contexts I've seen them in so far :hmm:):

تار - tar, fiber?
مزن - cloud
آه - sigh
شُنَو‌ - listen!
زار - wounded
آوازه خوان - (professional) singer
خواندن - to sing
عجب! - (interjection) how...! :?:
صبر - patience
پرستو - swallow
درون - 'in', in the sense of being surrounded by? (Or is this just در + اون [آن]?)
چگونه = چطور :?:
نوان - oscillating, invalid, vibrant
نمودن - to seem
جائیکه - dove
پاره - part (related both to para in Turkish and more distantly to parça!)
کندن - to dig (I've probably seen this before but definitely didn't know the present stem/imperative :P)
پک - great? big? ???
شریک - partner, associate (friend?)
فدا - sacrifice
رزیدن - to color (hence نیارزد?)
مو - tress, hair(?)
افتادن - to fall
ظرف - dish

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2019-01-15, 18:18

Tajik song:
vijayjohn wrote:The tar is in a cloud on my fragile heart.

Don't play your tar on my little fragile heart.
NB: The prefix مـ ma- is archaic and means roughly the same as contemporary نـ na-, that is, "don't". In older forms of the language, ma- was used for "don't" and na- for "doesn't".

Iranian Persian song:
How patient God is!

Correct translation. I just wanted to add a cultural note - there's a nice explanation of this phrase (and its Arabic equivalent عجباً لحلم الله) here.

I don't know. Is it a springtime?
I don't know. Is it a voice? :?:

Here the copula است is contrasted with هست, the latter meaning "there is" (cf. Turkish var). So these lines translate as "I don't know if there is a springtime / I don't know if there is a voice."

How come the complaint against the enemies seemed invalid? :?:

How can I complain of my enemies? (More literally: how can a complaint about my enemies be made?)
چگونه how
نمودن to do (replaces کردن)

Part of my body is my enemy, dove!

When [more literally "where"] part of my [own] body is my enemy
جائکه or جایی که = "the place where" > "when"

(So the meaning of those two lines together is basically: how can I complain of my enemies when I'm my own enemy?)

Hazaragi song:
Let's go, patriot; dig out a heart from the departure! :?:

Let's go, patriot; dig your heart out from separation

Everyone is great friends in this country. :?:

Everyone is a partner/participant (شریک) in this country. I don't know what پک means.

Motherland, this body is the sacrifice of the weight of your mountains.

Motherland, let this body be sacrificed for the stones of your mountains.

The soil of [the land of] separation [ie. diaspora] is not worth a hair of your tresses

غربت in Persian (and the original Arabic غربة) means separation from one's native land, exile, diaspora, etc. In Urdu semantic drift has led it to mean "poverty" (if you are far from home in exile you often end up poor) but it doesn't have that meaning in Persian or Arabic.
ارزیدن = to be worth

The poverty of the land has made me shed tears. :?:

The soil of separation has made me sorrowful
غمبار is formed from غم "sorrow" + بار "load"

I come towards you (with) my heart full of stories.

I come towards you with my heart full of sorrows.
غصه ghosse sorrow
قصه qesse story

Vocab:
تار - tar, fiber? can also be a strand of hair
مزن - cloud don't play! / don't hit/strike!
آه - sigh
شُنَو‌ - listen!
زار - wounded
آوازه خوان - (professional) singer
خواندن - to sing
عجب! - (interjection) how...! :?: or "how strange a...! / what a strange ...!"
صبر - patience
پرستو - swallow
درون - 'in', in the sense of being surrounded by? (Or is this just در + اون [آن]?) see here
چگونه = چطور :?: yes, it means "how", literally "what color" (چه گونه); cf. شولن / ايشلون in Iraqi and some other Arabic dialects
نوان - oscillating, invalid, vibrant توان , from توانستن
نمودن - to seem yes but also "to do"
جائیکه - dove "the place where" - see above
پاره - part (related both to para in Turkish and more distantly to parça!)
کندن - to dig (I've probably seen this before but definitely didn't know the present stem/imperative :P)
پک - great? big? ??? no idea
شریک - partner, associate (friend?)
فدا - sacrifice
رزیدن - to color (hence نیارزد?) ارزیدن "to be worth"
مو - tress, hair(?) yes, this is the normal/unmarked word for "hair"
افتادن - to fall
ظرف - dish
Please correct my mistakes in any language.


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