Persian Study Group

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-05-23, 3:49

This time, I'm going to try to translate an Iranian song I found through the songs thread rather than one I've known from childhood. This is "Sib" by Simin Ghanem (sorry for the grainy video footage):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf9CdpidqxM
Lyrics:

.من از اون آسمون آبی میخوام
.من از اون شبهای مهتابی میخوام
.دلم از خاطره های بد جدا
.من از اون وقتهای بیتابی میخوام

،من میخوام یه دسته گل به آب بدم
،آرزوهامو به یک حباب بدم
،سیبی از شاخه حسرت بچینم
،بندازم رو آسمون و تاب بدم
،گل ای پونه بهار دل من
!یه بیابون لاله زار دل من

مثل یک دسته گل اقاقیا
!دلمو باز میکنه. بیا، بیا
.تو میری پشت علفها. گم میشی
.من میمونم و گل اقاقیا

Translation:

I want (some) of that blue sky.
I want (some) of those moonlit nights.
My heart (is) separate from bad memories.
I want (some) of those impatient times.

I want to give water a bunch of flowers,
Give a shade my desires, :?:
Cut an apple from the branch of yearning,
Throw it into the sky, and swing,
Flower, o pennyroyal of my spring,
A wilderness of the wounded tulips of my heart!

It opens my heart like a bunch
Of locust flowers. Come, come!
You go behind the grass. You get lost.
I stay with the locust flowers.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-05-23, 15:11

vijayjohn wrote:Give a shade bubble my desires, :?:
Cut Pick an apple from the branch of yearning,
A wilderness of the wounded tulip field of my heart! (this is not زار as in grieved, but a suffix meaning "place abounding in")
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-05-24, 3:44

I'm starting to wonder whether I really understand what these Persian songs are saying even after they're translated. :hmm: For example, what exactly was that last song about? Was it a post-breakup song, perhaps? I.e. "I don't want to relive the bitter experiences I had when I was in love; I just want to be happy"? What's with the images of giving water flowers and giving a bubble your desires? Does the first one have something to do with rose water, and the second with confining negative emotions to a small space? (Is the connection between the water and the bubble in the next line intentional?). Why specifically "pennyroyal of my spring"?

Anyway, here's a Hazaragi song called "Nago Mora" and sung by Ghazal Sadat. This is probably the first Hazaragi song I ever heard. I didn't think I would ever even find the lyrics for this song, let alone translate it, and it feels a bit hard to figure out. I tried translating it anyway, though, first into Classical Persian, then into English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkBxnUVGZN4
Hazaragi lyrics:

نگو موره دیده مه
،پس علف کوه
!دیدن یـــار نو

.ازی بالا گله کوتر میایه
.دلبر جانم، بیله، موتر میایه
!ازینجی خیز کنم ده سر رایشی
چطور نوربند و معتبر میایه؟

به قربانی ازی گشتار و رفتار
.زمین ده زیر پایشی آمد به گوفتار
".زمین گفتا: "دیگه عیبی نداره
.به گشتو موکونه نازای بسیار

Translation into (quasi?-)Classical Persian:

نگو مرا دیده من
پس علف کوه
!دیدن یـــار نو

.از اینجا بالا گله کبوتر می آید
.دلبر جانم، بله، ماشین می آید
!از اینجا خیز کنم در سر راهش
چطور قشنگ و معتبر میاید؟

به قربانی از این گشتار و رفتار
.زمین در زیر پایش آمد به گفتار
".زمین گفتا: "دیگر عیبی ندارد
.به گشتن میکند نازهای بسیار

Translation into English:

Don't say you saw me
Behind the mountain grass,
Seeing the new beloved one!

A flock of pigeons is coming up from here.
My darling, yes, a car is coming.
Let me jump from here onto his path!
How does he become beautiful and comfortable? :?:

To talk to a victim of this transformation and
Behavior, the ground came under their feet.
The ground said, "There are no faults."
It flirts a lot as it goes around. :?:

UPDATE 6/11: Got a little closer to figuring out a few more of the Hazaragi words and revised my translation accordingly
Update 7/07: I had confirmed with a Hazara guy on DIscord that گشتو in Hazaragi simply means گشتن.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby Antea » 2020-08-29, 18:34

Hi, I have started to learn Persian again. I suppose there is no "The person after me" game here, isn't it? I've been looking, but I couldn't find :hmm: If someone remembers it....

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-08-31, 3:27

It's here.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-09-02, 23:22

I hope I didn't scare you away with the Hazaragi song! :lol:

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby POST » 2020-09-08, 6:15

I need a little help. This is my first posting to this website. This is a note that I received from a lady friend in Iran. It is written in ENGLISH "Hi Azizzam MAN SHOMARE SHOMA RO SAVE NADEERAM SHOMA." can any of you translate this into English and provide me with an interpretation. I will be very much obliged. I see you can translate songs and provide meaning to them. I am glad I got here to ask. Thanks and Stay SAFE.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-09-09, 0:42

vijayjohn wrote:I hope I didn't scare you away with the Hazaragi song! :lol:

That one was definitely beyond my pay grade :lol: No, I just haven't been on Unilang much lately, but I'll try to check now and then.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-10-11, 8:43

All right, maybe I'll try a song with more straightforward lyrics this time. :)
POST wrote:I need a little help. This is my first posting to this website. This is a note that I received from a lady friend in Iran. It is written in ENGLISH "Hi Azizzam MAN SHOMARE SHOMA RO SAVE NADEERAM SHOMA." can any of you translate this into English and provide me with an interpretation. I will be very much obliged. I see you can translate songs and provide meaning to them. I am glad I got here to ask. Thanks and Stay SAFE.

My best guess is something like "hi dear, I didn't save your number." (Sorry for getting to this so late btw!).

Anyway, this is a ghazal called "Sobh" sung by Habib Qaderi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KA-DqFCxkM
Lyrics (courtesy of https://www.facebook.com/14358463466483 ... 428181681/):

.صبحی به لب آب به سودای تو رفتم
.موجی شدم و مست به دریای تو رفتم

!دنیای مرا سوختی ،ای عشق جهانسوز
!اکنون کرمی کن که به دنیای تو رفتم

.تو سیل خروشنده و من شاخه یی خشکم
.هر جا که تو رفتی به قدم های تو رفتم

،گه خاک خراباتم و گه مست مناجات
!بنگر به کجا ها به تمنای تو رفتم

My attempt at a translation:

One morning, I went to the edge of the water for :?: you.
I became a wave and went, drunk, into your sea.

O world-rending :?: love, you burned my world!
Now grant me that I went into your world! :?:

You are a roaring flood, and I, a dry branch.
Everywhere you went, I went in your footsteps.

If I am the land of ruins, and if (I am) the passion of a litany,
Look where I went at your behest!

EDIT: I'm not sure whether this will make sense, but I wanted to try anyway to explain why I wrote "you are a roaring flood, and I, a dry branch." I've noticed this sort of construction often in Persian poetry, and honestly, I find that English does something similar. However, it seems to me as if usually the copula in Persian is omitted in the first clause rather than the second, whereas I'd expect the opposite in English. In other words, in English, I don't think we'd say *you a roaring flood, and I am a dry branch, but we would say you are a roaring flood, and I, a dry branch.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-10-12, 20:28

vijayjohn wrote:Anyway, this is a ghazal called "Sobh" sung by Habib Qaderi

Nice choice! I love this song. I remember Remy LeBeau posted it here years ago.

One morning, I went to the edge of the water for :?: you.
This is a tricky one to translate but basically means "one morning, overcome with passion for you, I went to the shore (edge of the water)"
I became a wave and went, drunk, into your sea.

O world-rending :?: love, you burned my world! yes, literally "world-burning"
Now grant me that I went into your world! :?: here که means زیرا که or چرا که , so: "deign to show some kindness [to me] for I have gone into your world!"

You are a roaring flood, and I, a dry branch.
Everywhere you went, I went in your footsteps.

Sometimes I am the dust of ruins, and sometimes (I am) drunk on/mesmerized by a litany
[گه is a contraction of گاه and means "occasionally, sometimes". گه...گه is often used contrastively, eg. "sometimes, X, and other times, Y". Here the contrast is between being lowly and ignominious (خرابات in Sufi poetry usually refers to a wine tavern) vs. rapturous piety.]
Look where I went in hopes of [finding] you/out of desire for you!
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-10-25, 15:19

I've started getting more into Persian dialects and learning a lot more about Tajik. I found this resource in Russian for Tajik. I'm starting to learn more about dialects of Iranian Persian, too.
eskandar wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Anyway, this is a ghazal called "Sobh" sung by Habib Qaderi

Nice choice! I love this song. I remember Remy LeBeau posted it here years ago.

Thanks, and me, too!

Speaking of songs you love, the Iranian song I've picked to learn more words from this time iiiiis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKQAGWClQQA
Lyrics and translation: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/molavi-% ... -rumi.html

And this Hazaragi song I've also picked is full of Iranian shibboleths :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOgbL-MGVIs
Actually, you know what? Maybe this time, since I've ended up posting three Afghan songs...I'll also post three Iranian songs (i.e. one more)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_VPs5JA2M
Lyrics and translation: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/Man-amad ... -come.html

بیتابی - impatient
دسته - bunch
حباب - bubble
چیدن - to cut, pick, pluck
پونه، پودنه - pennyroyal
زار- - place abounding in...
اقاقیا - locust tree, false acacia
علف - grass
ازی - apparently Hazaragi for '(from?) now', 'from here', or 'from this', from از این
کوتر - Hazaragi for کبوتر
بیله - apparently a possible spelling of بله in Hazaragi
ازینجی - Hazaragi for از اینجا(?)
خیز کردن - to jump
رایشی - apparently, this is Hazaragi for راهش
نوربند - Hazaragi for قشنگ
معتبر - trustworthy?
گشتار - transformation
رفتار - behavior
عیب - fault
گشتو - Hazaragi for گشتن, apparently
به سودای تو رفتم - I went overcome with passion for you (or something like that)?
جهانسوز - world-rending
کرم کردن - to deign, to show kindness, to be generous
سیل - wave
خروشیدن - to roar
خرابات - tavern, ruins
خاک - dirt, dust, earth, ground, soil (I think I've seen more or less all of these meanings in songs by now, but I just noticed I never actually listed this as a vocabulary word, so it might be useful for me to write a note to myself explicitly listing out all of these meanings)
مناجات - litany, prayer with hymns and poetry
تمنا - desire
کمان - bow
دولت - riches (and inheritance? In addition to 'state')
جاودان - eternal
سرو - cypress
نطق - speech
دهن - mouth
واقعه - event, incident
مدهوش - dumbfounded (not the only meaning of this word)
با هوش - aware
ناطق - speaker
نوح - Noah
خموش - alternative form of خاموش
محنت - suffering
بخت - can this ever mean 'similarity'? Why did Rumi write:
هم فرقم و هم بختم
هم محنت و هم بختم
and repeat بختم twice?
چاكر - servant
کشاکش - conflict
آسودن - to rest, relax
بازیچه - toy, plaything
باچه - in Hazaragi, this apparently can mean 'guy', from بچه
بیخی - apparently, this means something like 'instead' in Hazaragi and comes from بی خیال
قد - in Hazaragi, this can apparently mean 'in the presence of'
آته - Hazaragi for بابا
آیه - Hazaragi for مامان
پتلون کوبوی (patlun-e-cowboy) - Hazaragi for 'jeans'
درو (derow) - harvest
زنبر، زنبل - wheelbarrow?
کلنگ - pickax?
فرغون - Iranian-specific term for wheelbarrow from French fourgon
نَکَنَه - apparently, Hazaragi for نکن
!اَلَی - some kind of interjection in Hazaragi
بنیاد - foundation
!صد ساله شوی - may you live a hundred years! (I think the verb here kind of confused me)
همسایه - neighbor (I keep confusing this word with other words that look similar to me, like همصدا and سایه, so I might as well note it)
افکندن - to throw
فکندن - archaic alternative form of افکندن
افگندن - Dari for افکندن
بی كسی - loneliness
чӣ хелӣ? чӣ ҳол дорӣ?/доред? нағзӣ? созӣ? - all equivalent in Tajik to ҳоли шумо чӣ тавр аст? хубӣ?/хуб ҳастед?
соз! - according to one source at least, this is the appropriate reply to "созӣ?"
суроға - address
شرط - condition
навишта истодаам - مینویسم
قلع - tin
арзиз - tin
فربه - fat
بچه - (informally) native to, (in Dari) boy, son
بچگان - rare or literary equivalent of بچه‌ها
талаба - student
талабагон - students
яктогӣ - singly
قاعدگی - menstruation
гармкунак - heater
чангкашак - vacuum cleaner
می سونُم - Shirazi for میگیرم
ایوان - palace (by extension from 'terrace', 'veranda', etc.)
مطابق - according to, like
ایماء - signal, hint
جانب - side, direction
خورم و خورسند - alternative form of خرم و خرسند, or is "خورم" just a typo?
خرم و خرسند - joyful (basically)
وحشت - fear
باز - hawk, falcon (obviously in addition to various other meanings)
غرض - motive
مسرور - happy
مستقیما - immediately
تماس گرفتن با تلفن - to call in, reach by phone?
میگویند یک آهنگ مانده بشود - they ask for a song to be played?
پخش - broadcast
مسابقه - competition
نادر - rare, unique
تا حدی که - to the extent that
یکدفعه - same as ناگهان
برگذار شدن - to take place? To be disposed of? To pass off? To fall?
تدریس کردن - to teach
ثروتمند - same as دولتمند
به طور متوسط - on average
بالاتر - higher
آمار - statistics
نداری، ناداری - poverty
بیداد کردن - to scream?
سرانه - per capita
حسابگری - thinking economically?
مقتصد - frugal
جنبه - aspect
!نوش جان - eat hearty! Bon appetit!
نوش جان کردن - to eat heartily
طبع - disposition, temper
خوراک - food
شمول - inclusion
می باشد - just means است, apparently
مقر فرماندهی - headquarters?
موقعیت - location, situation(?)
مزید - increase
سائر - rest, remainder
فرآورده - product
تلفن دستی - cell phone
مگر - interrogative word used by one who hears a remark contrary to their previous supposition, in addition to 'but' and 'as if'
انگار - as if, you'd think, imagine!
راستی - by the way
ایست بازرسی - security checkpoint
بخش گمرک - customs section (I've barely even heard this term in English but okay :lol:)
امنیت - safety, security (امانت can mean this and other things)
انگلیس - same as انگلستان (but note the long vowel and also that this means not only England but also the UK/Great Britain, I guess comparable to how lots of (at least American) people use "England" in English)
طلا - gold

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-10-25, 23:32

Mostly just addressing the words with question marks.
vijayjohn wrote:به سودای تو رفتم - I went overcome with passion for you (or something like that)? ✔️
بخت - can this ever mean 'similarity'? Why did Rumi write:
هم فرقم و هم بختم
هم محنت و هم بختم
and repeat بختم twice?
A few notes here. First, I'm not sure this poem is actually by Rumi; it may simply be attributed to him. In any case, why does the poet repeat بخت ? The word does not mean similarity; whoever translated it that way was probably guessing that it must be the opposite of فرق which they took in the contemporary sense of "difference." Actually here فرق probably means "separation", so in both cases negative things (separation, trial) are juxtaposed with بخت (fate, fortune, luck)
آته - Hazaragi for بابا Cool! Seems very Turkic.
آیه - Hazaragi for مامان Wonder if it's cognate with Hindi/Urdu آیا "wet nurse"
زنبر، زنبل - wheelbarrow? Apparently. I didn't know this word but that seems to be the meaning from what I could find.
کلنگ - pickax? yes
نَکَنَه - apparently, Hazaragi for نکن It's not the Hazaragi equivalent of نکند ? I don't know the context, but that would have been by guess by looking at it
суроға - address (cf. سراغ)
навишта истодаам - مینویسم From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Tajik, wouldn't this rather be equivalent to the Iranian دارم می‌نویسم ? Ie. it's progressive, right?
талаба - student just for comparison, طلبه is used in Iran for a seminary student)
می سونُم - Shirazi for میگیرم I'm guessing this is from the verb ستادن but lost the [t] in Shirazi
خورم و خورسند - alternative form of خرم و خرسند, or is "خورم" just a typo? I'd say typo
تماس گرفتن با تلفن - to call in, reach by phone? yes, or "to contact by phone"
میگویند یک آهنگ مانده بشود - they ask for a song to be played? No idea, can you link to the context?
برگذار شدن - to take place? To be disposed of? To pass off? To fall? Usually used when referring to events, eg. a concert, a conference, etc.
بیداد کردن - to scream? To oppress (داد = justice). Unless you're thinking of داد و بیداد کردن which is to scream, make lots of noise.
حسابگری - thinking economically? Dunno, would need the context
مقر فرماندهی - headquarters? yes
موقعیت - location, situation(?) yes to both
تلفن دستی - cell phone at least in Iran تلفن همراه is more common
بخش گمرک - customs section (I've barely even heard this term in English but okay :lol:) Surely you've had to pass through "customs" every time you've had an international trip, right? Btw, گمرک has a cool etymology and made it from Ottoman into Arabic (as جمرك) too.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-10-31, 0:16

Making this a separate post before I try translating another song because it's a pretty detailed reply and discussion:
eskandar wrote:آیه - Hazaragi for مامان Wonder if it's cognate with Hindi/Urdu آیا "wet nurse"

I don't think so. آیا is a Portuguese loanword.
نَکَنَه - apparently, Hazaragi for نکن It's not the Hazaragi equivalent of نکند ? I don't know the context, but that would have been by guess by looking at it

Yeah, it probably is, tbh.
суроға - address (cf. سراغ)

I know, isn't that so cool?! :D Unsurprisingly, Tajik also has адрес from Russian.
навишта истодаам - مینویسم From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Tajik, wouldn't this rather be equivalent to the Iranian دارم می‌نویسم ? Ie. it's progressive, right?

Yeah, I think so. Sorry, my understanding of some of the finer points of Persian grammar is pretty bad!
میگویند یک آهنگ مانده بشود - they ask for a song to be played? No idea, can you link to the context?

From LangMedia in Dari again. Actually, I listened to it again, and it sounds to me like maybe this was a typo. It's from 2:10 to 2:37 in the first video ("Music Education") here, which LangMedia transcribes (at the beginning of Noorjahan's last line) as follows:

خب، بیشتر برنامه های تفریحی ما غیر از چند برنامه ای که مخصوص شوخی و خنده است، بیشتر برنامه های تفریحی، برنامه های موسیقی هستند که مردم تماس می گیرند. می گن که.. یک آهنگ خاصی را می گن که مانده شوه، برنامه های رادیو همچنان، که برشان پخش شوه و مسابقات صدا داریم، مثلا ستاره افغان که یک مورد نادر بود لیکن وجود داره. تا حدی، که هر سال یکدفعه برگزار میشه.

But having listened to it again, I think maybe she actually said "یک آهنگ خاصی را می گن که آمانده شوه" (maybe she even said "شه" rather than "شوه"). Does that make any more sense? Personally, I find that a bit easier to understand.
بیداد کردن - to scream? To oppress (داد = justice). Unless you're thinking of داد و بیداد کردن which is to scream, make lots of noise.

This comes from LangMedia as well, but it seems as if I've ended up finding more issues with Iranian Persian resources than with Dari ones this time! In this case, the Iranian dialogue on LangMedia I used this time was the last one here, "Isfahan Economy." The transcript has "خیلی فقر و نداری بیداد میکنه" translated into English as 'poverty and destitution are common' and then includes a footnote that says, "'بیداد کردن' which means to shout is a verb expressing the important [sic] of a matter. Here when Amir says poverty and destitution shout, he means the problem is very common." Is there any truth to this claim on LangMedia?
حسابگری - thinking economically? Dunno, would need the context

Same dialogue:

.کلا یه عادتی هم که اصفهانی ها دارند و معروف هستند به این عادتشون حسابگری و این مقتصد بودنشونه

Translated as:

'And in general a habit that Isfahanis have and are famous for is this habit of being frugal and [thinking] economically.'
تلفن دستی - cell phone at least in Iran تلفن همراه is more common

بخش گمرک - customs section (I've barely even heard this term in English but okay :lol:) Surely you've had to pass through "customs" every time you've had an international trip, right?

Of course; what I meant was specifically the term "customs section" (as opposed to something like "department of customs"), and I get the impression that specifically بخش گمرک is not the most common way of phrasing it in Persian, either.
Btw, گمرک has a cool etymology and made it from Ottoman into Arabic (as جمرك) too.

I kind of suspected this somehow; in fact, GLOSS is one of those sites where the gaaf's look like kaaf's, so this reminded me of the discussion about comarca in Spanish on your TAC. :P It would've been pretty funny if this wasn't a loanword because then I guess its etymology would have something to do with getting lost! :lol:
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2020-10-31, 8:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-10-31, 2:44

vijayjohn wrote:I don't think so. آیا is a Portuguese loanword.

I didn't know that, cool!

навишта истодаам - مینویسم From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Tajik, wouldn't this rather be equivalent to the Iranian دارم می‌نویسم ? Ie. it's progressive, right?

Yeah, I think so. Sorry, my understanding of some of the finer points of Persian grammar is pretty bad!

To be fair your translation was probably fine for Afghan Persian. The issue gets complicated because classical Persian did not distinguish progressive aspect, so می‌نویسم could be understood as "I write" or "I am writing". (This was different in Early New Persian, but I won't confuse things further by going into that...) If I'm not mistaken this is still the case in spoken Afghan Persian, whereas Tajik and Iranian have developed auxiliaries with истода (Tajik) or داشتن (Iranian) to mark progressiveness.

I think maybe she actually said "یک آهنگ خاصی را می گن که آمانده شوه" (maybe she even said "شه" rather than "شوه"). Does that make any more sense? Personally, I find that a bit easier to understand.

I listened to this a few times and I hear یک آهنگ خاص را می‌گن که ؟ شه and I can't for the life of me make out that mystery word. آمانده doesn't mean anything to me, but I also don't know what مانده would mean in such a context.

Here when Amir says poverty and destitution shout, he means the problem is very common." Is there any truth to this claim on LangMedia?

He definitely means داد و بیداد کردن and just idiosyncratically shortened it for some reason. I've never heard it shortened like that before but it would be something like saying "don't count your chickens" instead of "don't count your chickens before they hatch", that kind of thing. Btw the interviewer has a strong Isfahani accent :D

حسابگری - thinking economically?

Yes, now with the context it's clear.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-11-02, 2:41

eskandar wrote:تلفن دستی - cell phone at least in Iran تلفن همراه is more common

Sorry, I meant to post a comment about this before but forgot! This is kind of odd because GLOSS specifically uses تلفن دستی in a conversation in Iranian Persian, but then this probably isn't the first time I've found it unreliable in this sense (I don't remember whether I've seen something like this happen with GLOSS before, but in any case, it's common enough for language-learning resources. I've seen pretty bad issues with Teach Yourself Business French and especially Teach Yourself Portuguese).
To be fair your translation was probably fine for Afghan Persian. The issue gets complicated because classical Persian did not distinguish progressive aspect, so می‌نویسم could be understood as "I write" or "I am writing". (This was different in Early New Persian, but I won't confuse things further by going into that...) If I'm not mistaken this is still the case in spoken Afghan Persian, whereas Tajik and Iranian have developed auxiliaries with истода (Tajik) or داشتن (Iranian) to mark progressiveness.

I'm confused because Wikipedia claims that the داشتن construction is Classical Persian, not Iranian Persian.
I listened to this a few times and I hear یک آهنگ خاص را می‌گن که ؟ شه and I can't for the life of me make out that mystery word. آمانده doesn't mean anything to me, but I also don't know what مانده would mean in such a context.

I guess it's some kind of specifically Afghan usage.
He definitely means داد و بیداد کردن and just idiosyncratically shortened it for some reason. I've never heard it shortened like that before but it would be something like saying "don't count your chickens" instead of "don't count your chickens before they hatch", that kind of thing.

Do you think it would be possible to translate خیلی فقر و نداری داد و بیداد کردن as something like 'to scream poverty'?
Btw the interviewer has a strong Isfahani accent :D

Oh, cool! I'm not very familiar with regional varieties of Iranian Persian yet.

So I just found the lyrics to this song online yesterday even though I've been familiar with it from a young age!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ds5mTMqJuA
،هموطن دور از وطن
.من خاک دارم میفروشم
قیمت خاک وطن
.یک لحظه دیدار با توست
لحظه دیدار از خاک وطن
!گفتار با توست، وای

هموطن جانم، نمیپرسی چرا
این خاک پاکه؟
قطره خون
.سیاوش روی خاکه

غیرت و مردانگی های همان عابر همان
یعقوب لیث تک سوار مرد ایران
همان سلطان جلال الدین
.خوارزمی ز یاران میفروشم
.جای پای آن عزیزان میفروشم
.خون گرم قهرمانان میفروشم
اشک چشم مادران منتظر بر خاک ایران
.میفروشم. خاک دارم میفروشم

My attempt at a translation:

Countryman away from the homeland,
I am selling land.
The price of the soil of my country
Is a moment of seeing you.
Oh, a moment of seeing the soil
Of my land is a conversation with you! :?:

My dear countryman, you do not ask why
This land is pure.
A drop of the blood
Of Siavosh is on the land.

I am selling the zeal and courage of the very passerby,
Of none other than Ya'qub Leis, brave lone rider
Of Iran, (and of) none other than Sultan Jalaluddin
Khwarizmi, among the beloved ones. :?:
I am selling the footprints of those precious ones.
I am selling the warm blood of brave people.
I am selling the tears of the eyes of mothers waiting
On the soil of Iran. I am selling land.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-11-02, 16:53

vijayjohn wrote:I'm confused because Wikipedia claims that the داشتن construction is Classical Persian, not Iranian Persian.

This is one of the things that makes Wikipedia so dangerous. This claim in the article is backed up with a citation, and moreover the source cited is an authoritative-looking one. It's missing a page number, but I was able to find the part of the source dealing with the progressive (p. 102, here). Notice that the source actually says the opposite: far from being a classical usage, this is a colloquialism which only entered the literary language in the past century! Whoever wrote the article probably just misunderstood something, and might not have a good understanding of what "classical" means in the context of Persian linguistics (ie. thought it means "written" as opposed to "spoken" and concluded that, because this construction has become part of the written language, it's therefore classical). That's what you get with a model like Wikipedia's, where everyone's "expertise" is considered equal and formally-trained academics are discouraged from participating. (Here it's just a trivial and innocuous bit of grammar, but imagine the same problem applied to politics, history, and other more consequential subjects...) Sorry to rant, I'll get off my soapbox now...

Do you think it would be possible to translate خیلی فقر و نداری داد و بیداد کردن as something like 'to scream poverty'?

Yeah, I suppose so.

Oh, cool! I'm not very familiar with regional varieties of Iranian Persian yet.

If it's a subject that interests you, this is a good place to start.

Will check your translation soon.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-11-02, 18:11

eskandar wrote:Sorry to rant, I'll get off my soapbox now...

No apologies necessary. I made a vow to stop editing Wikipedia altogether once they banned a certain Romani editor who basically created the entire Vlax Romani Wikipedia singlehandedly.
Do you think it would be possible to translate خیلی فقر و نداری داد و بیداد کردن as something like 'to scream poverty'?

Yeah, I suppose so.

Follow-up question: If I wanted to say 'this song screams Persian', would it make sense to say something like
این آهنگ فارسی داد و بیداد میکند?
Oh, cool! I'm not very familiar with regional varieties of Iranian Persian yet.

If it's a subject that interests you, this is a good place to start.

Will check your translation soon.

It does, so thanks! :D

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2020-11-03, 0:15

vijayjohn wrote:My attempt at a translation:

Oh, a moment of seeing the soil (or "visiting")
I am selling the zeal and courage of the very passerby (or "traveller")
I am selling the warm blood of brave people ("heroes")

Nice, just a couple of suggestions here that I think capture the meaning/sense of these words better.

vijayjohn wrote:I made a vow to stop editing Wikipedia altogether once they banned a certain Romani editor who basically created the entire Vlax Romani Wikipedia singlehandedly.

I think I remember you mentioning that before. I'm debating whether to fix this mistake in the Tajik article or not even bother...

Follow-up question: If I wanted to say 'this song screams Persian', would it make sense to say something like
این آهنگ فارسی داد و بیداد میکند?

There is a similar expression داد زدن "to shout, to scream" which can also be used in this sense - eg. if you want to say this song screams "Persian" you can say
(از دور) داد می‌زند که این آهنگ فارسی است

So maybe this speaker mentally mixed up داد زدن and داد و بیداد کردن ? Anyway, there are more idiomatic ways to say something like "this song screams 'Persian'" ("this song is very obviously Persian"):
خیلی معولمه \ مشخصه \ تابلوئه که این آهنگ فارسیه
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Persian Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2020-11-06, 17:16

eskandar wrote:Nice, just a couple of suggestions here that I think capture the meaning/sense of these words better.

Thanks! Wow, this time, I didn't even make any mistakes per se! :o First time that's happened with an Iranian song
I'm debating whether to fix this mistake in the Tajik article or not even bother...

Maybe try bringing it up on the talk page first? Like try pointing out that the source cited is actually saying that this construction wasn't attested in literary Iranian Persian until recently.
There is a similar expression داد زدن "to shout, to scream" which can also be used in this sense - eg. if you want to say this song screams "Persian" you can say
(از دور) داد می‌زند که این آهنگ فارسی است

So maybe this speaker mentally mixed up داد زدن and داد و بیداد کردن ? Anyway, there are more idiomatic ways to say something like "this song screams 'Persian'" ("this song is very obviously Persian"):
خیلی معولمه \ مشخصه \ تابلوئه که این آهنگ فارسیه

Thanks again! This song ("Khak") inspired that sentence. :P The dramatic tune automatically reminds me of the Shah (specifically the last one, mostly just because I've seen more pictures of him than of most other Persian shahs :silly: ) and the Susian guards.

So for my next non-Iranian song, I've picked another Afghan ghazal Remy posted once, namely "Dukhtar-i-Bagh" by Ustad Mahwash:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbq3VapNRx0
Lyrics:

.چنان سُر کرده ای در پرده بالا عزیز من
!که مطرب هم نخواند غیر درباری به دربارت

.من سرو سرافراز ام و هم مرهم داغ ام
.من دختر باغ ام

.من زینت باغ و چمن و گلشن و راغ ام
.من دختر باغ ام

.آشفته زیبای من است هزاران در صحن گلستان
!از هر طرفی فاخته آید به سراغم

کیفیت زیبای من را تو چه دانی؟ خواهی که بدانی؟
!از شاعر و رسام بگیری تو سراغم

Translation:

My dear, you slid like this onto the (musical) note above. :?:
May a minstrel not sing except (as?) a courtier in your court, either!

I am an honored cypress, and I am also a hot ointment. :?:
I am a girl of the garden.

I am a decoration of the garden, grass, flower garden, and meadow.
I am a girl of the garden.

Thousands are in love with my beauty in the courtyard of the flower garden.
May a cuckoo come from anywhere at my sign!

What do you know, (or) do you want to know, of the quality of my beauty?
Inquire about me from my poets and articulate ones!


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