Difficulty with writing Farsi.

[Archaic Spelling]

I am currently learning Farsi and am having a difficult time learning how to put the letters together. When to use a certain form. Any help would greatly be appreciated.

[Il Flauto]

Check out The Arabic Alphabet: How to Read & Write It by Nicholas Awde. It's on the Arabic alphabet, not Farsi, so a couple letters will be missing and a few will be in there that you won't use. However, I think that Farsi typically just adds another couple of dots on the letters that aren't in Arabic (such as their ch and p), so it should work fine. In addition, when learning the Arabic alphabet I tried writing down a bunch of things that I saw in English in it, and eventually started getting the hang of it.

[zhigulionthevolga]

First of all, Persian handwriting is not quite the same as Arabic, especially when we're talking about the "shekaste" style which is quite common.
This page has a list of some of the more common exceptions, and some samples:
http://www.iles.umn.edu/faculty/bashiri ... riting.pdf
This site has some tutorials:
http://www.easypersian.com/
You might also consider getting a book, like this one: http://www.ibexpub.com/showbook.asp?Book_ID=35
موفق باشی

[Barret VII]

I know both the MSA and Farsi abjads now

[Samariya]

I know Hebrew, MSA, Persian

[DM]

Hi,

My name's Mamuto, I am new in this forum. Persian is my native language, so I could help in case of questions.

For Perian fonts, suggest you check out the folloing link, you'll find many Persian fonts for downloading:


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Persian+Font&btnG=Google+Search

[ego]

Welcome DM! Great having you here, we really need people from your ancient and beautiful country! I learned some farsi some years ago but since then I forgot almost everything. But I am still young.
Khodafez

[Psi-Lord]

[rp]خوش آمدید، DM![/rp]

Welcome DM! Great having you here, we really need people from your ancient and beautiful country!

I can only second that myself.

[Javier]

Great ! A native persian speaker!

Let's start turning around then the persian section !!

[DM]

ego; Psi-Lord; Javier,
Thanks for your welcome notes.

[r]از پیام خوش آمد شـما متشـکرم[/r]

I will try to check this thread more or less daily to help as much as I can.

[r]سـعی می کنم روزانه از این جا بازدید کنم تا هر چقدر بتوانـم کمک کنم.[/r]

[DM]

Hi!

Long time, no new post! Changed your mind and given up learning Persian? If not, let's do something:

Let's conjugate the verb 'khandidan' (to laugh) in Persian. If possible, conjugate it using the Persian alphabet. I will correct any possible mistakes, and will clear the possible doubts.

Happy learning!

[Psi-Lord]

Long time, no new post!

Funny that I used to have lots of questions to ask, but after you joined Unilang, I haven't been able to think of any.

Changed your mind and given up learning Persian?

As for me, nope, just slowed it down a bit.

Let's conjugate the verb 'khandidan' (to laugh) in Persian. If possible, conjugate it using the Persian alphabet. I will correct any possible mistakes, and will clear the possible doubts.

Hmmm, this is one of the very points where I get stuck—خندیدن is not included in my list of irregular verbs. However, my list is very, very short, so that shouldn't be a surprise. Well, since I've got no choice, I'll try and treat it as a regular verb, and see what happens. By the way, I don't know the names of the tenses in Persian, so I'll use those my book presents. I'm not acquainted with all tenses yet, so I'll only conjugate those I've learnt, too.


Present stem: خند
Past stem: خندید

Past Participle: خندیده

Present Indicative
می‌خندم
می‌خندی
می‌خندد
می‌خندیم
می‌خندید
می‌خندند

Simple Past
خندیدم
خندیدی
خندید
خندیدیم
خندیدید
خندیدند

Imperfect
می‌خندیدم
می‌خندیدی
می‌خندید
می‌خندیدیم
می‌خندیدید
می‌خندیدند

Present Perfect:
خندیده ام
خندیده ای
خندیده است
خندیده ایم
خندیده اید
مندیده اند

Present Subjunctive:
بخندم
بخندی
بخندد
بخندیم
بخندید
بخندند

Imperative:
[r]بخند![/r]
[r]بخندید![/r]

[DM]

Present stem: خند

The present stem is: khandeh
(something has gone wrong with my keyboard, I can not type Faris. I will try to fix it later).

Past stem: خندید

Past Participle: خندیده

Present Indicative
می‌خندم
می‌خندی
می‌خندد
می‌خندیم
می‌خندید
می‌خندند

Simple Past
خندیدم
خندیدی
خندید
خندیدیم
خندیدید
خندیدند

Imperfect
می‌خندیدم
می‌خندیدی
می‌خندید
می‌خندیدیم
می‌خندیدید
می‌خندیدند

Present Perfect:
خندیده ام
خندیده ای
خندیده است
خندیده ایم
خندیده اید
مندیده اند

Present Subjunctive:
بخندم
بخندی
بخندد
بخندیم
بخندید
بخندند

Imperative:
بخند!
بخندید!

Excelent! Good job!

There is a saying in Faris that goes like this:
Laughter is the ultimate cure for any un-curable disease (kandeh bar har dard bi darman dava ast), (After I fix the problem with my keyboard, I will write it in Persian alphabet).

Keep up the good work!

[Psi-Lord]

Present stem: خند

The present stem is: khandeh

Ah, that'll give material for a question, good.

Most of my sources just list verbs with their present stems, not giving any sort of rules for the regular ones, or just mentioning the rules have too many exceptions to be useful; however, two of them (Teach Yourself Persian and a verb list I once downloaded from the web) give some guidelines… Both of them say that, for regular verbs ending in ـیدن, you obtain the present stem by dropping that very ending:

[rp]رسیدن - رسـ
بریدن - بر
گزیدن - گز
دریدن - در
خریدن - خر[/rp]

So, when dealing with خندیدن, that's what I did—I dropped ـیدن and ended up with خند. But since you say it should actually be khandeh instead (would that be خنده?), is that rule I'd been taught wrong? I mean, apparently it worked fine for the conjugation itself, since I got them right, but is the present stem itself given different for some special reason?

[DM]

Present stem: خند

The present stem is: khandeh

Ah, that'll give material for a question, good.

Most of my sources just list verbs with their present stems, not giving any sort of rules for the regular ones, or just mentioning the rules have too many exceptions to be useful; however, two of them (Teach Yourself Persian and a verb list I once downloaded from the web) give some guidelines… Both of them say that, for regular verbs ending in ـیدن, you obtain the present stem by dropping that very ending:

[rp]رسیدن - رسـ
بریدن - بر
گزیدن - گز
دریدن - در
خریدن - خر[/rp]

So, when dealing with خندیدن, that's what I did—I dropped ـیدن and ended up with خند. But since you say it should actually be khandeh instead (would that be خنده?), is that rule I'd been taught wrong? I mean, apparently it worked fine for the conjugation itself, since I got them right, but is the present stem itself given different for some special reason?

There has been a misunderstanding from my part. By stem I thought of the linguistic stem of the verb, which obviously was not what you meant. You meant the stem for conjugation of the verb. So the rule you mentioned is quite correct for conjugation of the verbs. For the verbs ending in یدن you drop the same and you will have the stem for conjugation (like the examples in your post).

Sorry to have made you confused.


[rp]خنده بر هر درد بی درمان دوا است.
Laughter is a cure for any un-curable disease[/rp]
[rp]هر (any) - درد (ache, disease) - درمان(cure), بی درمان (un-curable, literary: without cure) - دوا (cure, medicine)[/rp]

[DM]

So, when dealing with خندیدن, that's what I did—I dropped ـیدن and ended up with خند. But since you say it should actually be khandeh instead (would that be خنده?), is that rule I'd been taught wrong? I mean, apparently it worked fine for the conjugation itself, since I got them right, but is the present stem itself given different for some special reason?

As I explained in my previous post, the rule that you had followed for conjugation is correct.
خنده means laugh [not the verb 'to laugh', but 'laugh' in the sense: '...after a short laugh, he started to....']. In Farsi grammer خنده is called 'اسـم مصـدر' that literary means 'infinitive noun' of the verb
(I do not know what is the equivalent of 'اسـم مصـدر' in English ).


Some of the tenses that were not included in your conjugation of the verb خندیدن are as follows:

Past perfect:
[rp]خندیده بودم
خندیده بودی
خندیده بود
خندیده بودیم
خندیده بودید
خندیده بودند[/rp]

Future simple:
[rp]خواهـم خندید
خواهـی خندید
خواهـد خددید
خواهـیم خندید
خواهـید خندید
خواهـند خندید[/rp]

Future perfect:
[rp]خندیده باشـم
خندیده باشـی
خندیده باشـد
خندیده باشـیم
خندیده باشـید
خندیده باشـند[/rp]

موفق باشـی (buena suerte)

[Psi-Lord]

By stem I thought of the linguistic stem of the verb, which obviously was not what you meant. You meant the stem for conjugation of the verb. So the rule you mentioned is quite correct for conjugation of the verbs.

Ah, good to know then.

Sorry to have made you confused.

Not a problem at all, I was just afraid that it was either me who got it wrong somehow or that it was one of those points authors often simplify too much when teaching beginners.

In Farsi grammer خنده is called 'اسـم مصـدر' that literary means 'infinitive noun' of the verb

Nice, the first grammar term I've been taught so far.

Some of the tenses that were not included in your conjugation of the verb خندیدن are as follows:

I should definitely go and study more tenses, even if from a purely grammatical perspective (as I haven't really been able to practice them that much yet other than Present and Past).

[rp]خیلی ممنون. [/rp]

[DM]

As you know, there are some verbs in Farsi that their [conjugation] stem undergoes changes in some tenses (as happens in Spanish). One of these verbs is رفتـن (to go). In the simple present tense, the stem رفتـ (raft)changes to رو (rav). So the conjugation of this verb in simple present tense would be:

[rp]می روم
می روی
می رود
می رویم
می روید
می روند[/rp]


This change alos happens in the imperative of this verb:

[rp]برو (go, tú)(boro)
بروید (go, vosotros / usted)(beravid)[/rp]

This stem change does not happen in the other tenses of this verb.

I think stem changes in Farsi verbs are much fewer than Spanish verbs. So looking from this aspect only, learning to conjugate Farsi verbs is easier than Spanish.

[mgayoub]

First of all, Persian handwriting is not quite the same as Arabic, especially when we're talking about the "shekaste" style which is quite common.
This page has a list of some of the more common exceptions, and some samples:
http://www.iles.umn.edu/faculty/bashiri ... riting.pdf

Thank you for the information. I was wondering about the differences between Arabic and Persian handwriting, as my Arabic writing looks quite different from all of the handwritten Persian I've seen.

[sappling]

As I explained in my previous post, the rule that you had followed for conjugation is correct.
خنده means laugh [not the verb 'to laugh', but 'laugh' in the sense: '...after a short laugh, he started to....']. In Farsi grammer خنده is called 'اسـم مصـدر' that literary means 'infinitive noun' of the verb
(I do not know what is the equivalent of 'اسـم مصـدر' in English ).

I believe that 'اسـم مصـدر' is what English speakers know as a gerund.