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Mert
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Re: Free talk

Postby Mert » 2010-01-09, 17:31

alijsh wrote:
Hassaan Zia wrote:In Pakistan, radical mullahs gave verdict that zabiha of a Shia is haraam for Sunnis. :D

I haven't had contact with such Sunnis to ask and I don't think I would dare, if ever. They seem to be quite aggressive. Can you tell me why they are so bad with Shias? AFAIK, it was them who didn't listen to the Prophet and changed the successor. Ghadir Khumm is undeniable. So, why they blame us? :?


Geçmiş olsun, Ali. How was your exam? I also finished my exams, and I feel myself like a bird. :D Tomorrow back to the family... :|

I have a question which has stuck in my mind ever since. How come could Arabs believe that Abu Soufyan became Muslim? The man had to become Muslim just after Mecca had been annexed. And another question: Formerly the Umayyad Dynasty was enemy against Islam, how could Sunnis trust in them?

And Ali, are there Alevi in Iran? Alevism is a branch of Shi'asm. Most of Alevis don't fast on ramazan, don't pray namaz and don't go to mosque. They see all of those things belong to Sunnism, but not to Alevism.
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Re: Free talk

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-09, 20:35

alijsh wrote:I have also heard that they say the divine reward of killing the shia is Heaven (Behesht) :lol:


Yes offcourse. :D

alijsh wrote:So, you don't have any Wahhabi's in Pakistan? These actions root from Wahhabi's, AFAIK.


Basically all this hatred is spread by Wahabbis in Pakistan. SSP is a wahabbi organization funded by KSA.

Mert wrote:I have a question which has stuck in my mind ever since. How come could Arabs believe that Abu Soufyan became Muslim? The man had to become Muslim just after Mecca had been annexed. And another question: Formerly the Umayyad Dynasty was enemy against Islam, how could Sunnis trust in them?


Ask this question from Sunnis. :D

Mert wrote:And Ali, are there Alevi in Iran? Alevism is a branch of Shi'asm. Most of Alevis don't fast on ramazan, don't pray namaz and don't go to mosque. They see all of those things belong to Sunnism, but not to Alevism.


Are u an Alevi?
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Re: Free talk

Postby Mert » 2010-01-09, 20:54

Hassaan Zia wrote:
Mert wrote:And Ali, are there Alevi in Iran? Alevism is a branch of Shi'asm. Most of Alevis don't fast on ramazan, don't pray namaz and don't go to mosque. They see all of those things belong to Sunnism, but not to Alevism.


Are u an Alevi?


I don't have a religion. But my family is Alevi.
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Re: Free talk

Postby kalemiye » 2010-01-09, 21:05

Mert wrote:
Hassaan Zia wrote:
Mert wrote:And Ali, are there Alevi in Iran? Alevism is a branch of Shi'asm. Most of Alevis don't fast on ramazan, don't pray namaz and don't go to mosque. They see all of those things belong to Sunnism, but not to Alevism.


Are u an Alevi?


I don't have a religion. But my family is Alevi.


Bektaş and Alevi are the same thing? Because I have Alevi friends that told me that it is quite different.

There are in fact Alevis in İran, but the current regime is trying to neutralize the influence of the religious aghas have over people. I know the son of one of this aghas who is from a village in the İranian Azerbaijan (near the city of Urmia).

From what I could learn from him, followers of that Alevism they practice, can never cut their mustache and the agha clames he is in direct contact with İmam Ali. They all meet with closed eyes while the agha is having one of this conversations with the İmam, because if somebody ever opens the eyes while this conversation is taking place, İmam Ali will dissappear. Because of this, people obeys him and many give him money and lands as offerings, because they believe that that person is a holy person and in direct contact with the İmam.

This is what I have learnt from my personal experience, but I think is Ali who has to talk about this issue.
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Re: Free talk

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-09, 21:09

Mert wrote:
Hassaan Zia wrote:
Mert wrote:And Ali, are there Alevi in Iran? Alevism is a branch of Shi'asm. Most of Alevis don't fast on ramazan, don't pray namaz and don't go to mosque. They see all of those things belong to Sunnism, but not to Alevism.


Are u an Alevi?


I don't have a religion. But my family is Alevi.


Interesting :)
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Re: Free talk

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-09, 21:15

These stories about Shia-Sunni differences can be interesting. Islam isn't the only religion with internal differences. A lawyer I know enjoys religious discussions within the Anglican church (Christian). My brother-in-law who used to be a pastor in a Baptist (Christian) church, switched churches and became a Methodist (a different Christian sect). Jews often discuss differences between the Orthodox and other Jewish sects. They sometimes explain to others why they do something a certain way. (An Orthodox Jewish neighbor - not the same one I told you about earlier - came to my door one day and asked for water. She did not want to come in. I brought her the water and to my surprise she poured it out onto the bushes! She explained that she came from a funeral and that in the Jewish tradition, you should wash your hands after leaving the cemetery and before entering your own or someone else's home. She had washed her hands - pouring water over her hands while watering my plants!)

One normally accepts these differences among neighbors. Sometimes, members of one group try to persuade others over to their point of view. Others are free to accept or reject such overtures. In most cases people respect each other and are not hostile to one another. I think now of the three Shia-Sunni couples I know. From Lebanon, in each one the wife is Shia while the husband is Sunni. If the husbands had refused to touch food from a Shia, they would have starved long ago! A Lebanese lawyer once told me a case where a man had three daughters and, for inheritance purposes, decided to change his mazhab (sect) - I can't remember now if it was from Sunni to Shia, or vice versa. Obviously, he realized there was a difference and decided to take advantage of it!

What is it that makes one perceive such sectarian differences, not as normal differences among neighbors, but as reasons for harming the neighbor? Is there something in the religion itself that causes the trouble, or is it things apart from religion (greed, need for control, common criminality or mental issues) - not really in the religion but masquerading as or pretending to be religion?

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Re: Free talk

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-09, 21:24

Gaile Irene wrote:I think now of the three Shia-Sunni couples I know. From Lebanon, in each one the wife is Shia while the husband is Sunni.


My both parents are Sunnis. :lol:

Gaile Irene wrote:Is there something in the religion itself that causes the trouble, or is it things apart from religion (greed, need for control, common criminality or mental issues) - not really in the religion but masquerading as or pretending to be religion?


Nope. Neither of sect allows killing of people from other sects.
But Wahabbies are exceptional case :D
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Re: Free talk

Postby Mert » 2010-01-10, 0:06

Hacı Bektaş Veli was a sufi. He came from Iran to Central Anatolia. He was educated together with Mevlana by Ahmad Yasavi.

There are many kinds of Alevism, but Anatolian Alevism is inspired by Hacı Bektaş Veli. There is "dedelik" in Alevism. In Alevi dergahs member educates himself with the Alevism and Bektashism principles.

Alevis come together in cemevi(cem house), and a group of Alevis dance semah by singing religious songs for Allah, Hz. Ali, Hz. Mohammad, 12 Imams with saz instrument. During dance, dede(the leader of Alevis) reads the verses of the Koran. Anatolian Alevism takes notice of humanism.

@Gaile Irene:

In the past a Sunni told that: "I'd rather make my daughter get married to a Christian than make her get married to an Alevi".
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Re: Free talk

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-10, 0:22

AFAIk Alevis also commemorate Ashura. Am I right Mert?
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Re: Free talk

Postby Mert » 2010-01-10, 0:30

Hassaan Zia wrote:AFAIk Alevis also commemorate Ashura. Am I right Mert?


Yes, of course. But Alevis have a difference from Shi'as. Shi'as beat themselves with chain, but Alevis don't do that in order to commemorate the massacre of Kerbela.
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Re: Free talk

Postby kalemiye » 2010-01-10, 1:02

Mert wrote:
Hassaan Zia wrote:AFAIk Alevis also commemorate Ashura. Am I right Mert?


Yes, of course. But Alevis have a difference from Shi'as. Shi'as beat themselves with chain, but Alevis don't do that in order to commemorate the massacre of Kerbela.


I read the beliefs of Alevis are actually a syncretic religion formed by Islam, ancient Iranian beliefs, Turkish chamanism and certain aspects of Christianity. What is your opinion about this?
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Re: Free talk

Postby camelkebab » 2010-01-10, 8:32

From what I could learn from him, followers of that Alevism they practice, can never cut their mustache


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Re: Free talk

Postby Mert » 2010-01-10, 9:45

kalemiye wrote:
Mert wrote:
Hassaan Zia wrote:AFAIk Alevis also commemorate Ashura. Am I right Mert?


Yes, of course. But Alevis have a difference from Shi'as. Shi'as beat themselves with chain, but Alevis don't do that in order to commemorate the massacre of Kerbela.


I read the beliefs of Alevis are actually a syncretic religion formed by Islam, ancient Iranian beliefs, Turkish chamanism and certain aspects of Christianity. What is your opinion about this?


There are many stories about it. Some claim Alevis were Christians who were obliged to become Muslim by force in Anatolia. Even though Sunnism was connected to the Koran and Mohammad's speechs directly, Alevism was inspired and affected by sufism. For instance, Alevi women never cover their hair. They don't wear headscarf at all. While Alevis are dancing semah, women and men do it together. In Sunnism woman and man are sin for each other to touch, to sit side by side. But In Alevism everyone is daughter and son of Allah, hence no one has to keep oneself away from one another.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby camelkebab » 2010-01-10, 10:04

Gaile Irene wrote:
alijsh wrote:
camelkebab wrote:I can only imagine how confusing and annoying these guys must be to americans etc. Here in Sweden a racist party is growing because of this and will probably be in the parlament after the next election.

So, these Muslims are making things against Islam. With the stories you friends are saying, I'm just understanding why hatred rate against Muslims is growing. I thought they bear a grudge but now, it is clear that Muslims are themselves responsible to a great extent.

I don't have much time now, but wanted to comment on this particular idea. I think people here in the U.S. in general are careful not apply the actions of a few to an entire religion or group (to be sure there are some people who do). I certainly do not intend to either. I was hoping to focus attention to some religion-related issues: misuse of religion (especially when it is used to control or hurt others), demands for special treatment because of religion, and more stories like these. Have you seen it? How does it happen? How should you or society deal with it?


i could write a book about this, i have much experience in this matter. i started to write, but it never ends, so i decided to let it be, i hope you understand :)

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Re: Free talk

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-10, 15:15

="Mert"Alevi women never cover their hair. They don't wear headscarf at all. While Alevis are dancing semah, women and men do it together.

I had never heard of "semah" until now (and knew nothing about the Alevi). I found some examples of semah on the internet - it seems to be primarily Alevi. The women were dancing with the men, but their heads were covered - I guess that was because they were wearing traditional dress. When these women go out in public on their daily affairs they don't wear headscarves? (But I think this is true for many Sunni women as well in Turkey. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) One internet source claimed that most of Turkey's Arabs are Alevi. Since the language used in the semah is Turkish, apparently the semah's origins are Turkish. I wonder, is Arabic used in Alevi prayer?

A Deutsche Welle report describes some of the differences between Alevi and Sunni and the difficulties the Alevi face because of religious intolerance by Sunnis.
http://www.networkeurope.org/feature/al ... difference

What is the position of Alevis in Iran?

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Re: Free talk

Postby kalemiye » 2010-01-10, 15:21

Gaile Irene wrote:
="Mert"Alevi women never cover their hair. They don't wear headscarf at all. While Alevis are dancing semah, women and men do it together.

I had never heard of "semah" until now (and knew nothing about the Alevi). I found some examples of semah on the internet - it seems to be primarily Alevi. The women were dancing with the men, but their heads were covered - I guess that was because they were wearing traditional dress. When these women go out in public on their daily affairs they don't wear headscarves? (But I think this is true for many Sunni women as well in Turkey. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) One internet source claimed that most of Turkey's Arabs are Alevi. Since the language used in the semah is Turkish, apparently the semah's origins are Turkish. I wonder, is Arabic used in Alevi prayer?


State does not enforce they use of hiyab in your daily life, therefore is a private choice wether to wear it or not, that is why it is normal to see sunni women uncovered. It is not a religious requierement for Alevi women to conver.

Alevis are known to be the most secular people in Turkey, idetifying themselves with the Secular Turkish Republic. The difference between sunni and alevi is not only a religious one, but also a cultural one and their lifestyle, maybe not in cities, but in villages.

Alevis can be Kurdish, Turkish or Arabic, but I think one is born into Alevism, you can never convert to Alevism. I am not 100% sure about this, so let's wait for Mert's reply.
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Re: Free talk

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-10, 16:41

Our discussion of the Alevi brings me to another topic. I read this morning that Alevi men and women pray together. By coincidence joint prayer came up in a conversation recently. I was making plans with a Palestinian female friend - she said that her husband was going to go to the mosque to pray and mentioned as an aside that she hardly goes to the mosque anymore. I told her that some people want to go to the mosque and pray together as a family (as well as meet with friends) but that certain mosques prevent this. She said "pray together? It's not allowed!". I told her some mosques have everyone praying together, but that mosques under the influence of foreigners often don't allow this. An article in The Boston Globe about the problem of enforced separation of male and female in the mosque states:

"A national survey released by the Council on American-Islamic Relations suggests the problem is growing. Fifty-two percent of mosques put female congregants behind a partition or in a separate room in 1994. Sixty-six percent of mosques did so in 2000."
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living ... _together/

Some women activists are trying to have the foreign-influenced separation ban changed, claiming that "if men and women can pray together in the holiest of Muslim mosques in Mecca, why can't they do the same in other places?"
http://www.commongroundnews.org/article ... sid=1&sp=0

Another commentator writes, "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If any among your women asks permission to go to the mosque, don't stop her from going. But in some Muslim societies overseas, they don't let women in the mosques. They've turned the mosques into men-only clubs, contrary to what the Prophet ordered.
In North America and Britain, hard as it is to believe, too many Muslims have brought over this ignorant attitude and many mosques here don't allow women in. It's hard to understand why anybody would perpetuate such un-Islamic injustice."
http://www.islamfortoday.com/womeninmosques.htm

I wonder how this issue, and the fact that the discussion even occurs, appears to those of you overseas?

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Re: Free talk

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-10, 17:33

kalemiye wrote:There are in fact Alevis in İran, but the current regime is trying to neutralize the influence of the religious aghas have over people. I know the son of one of this aghas who is from a village in the İranian Azerbaijan (near the city of Urmia).

From what I could learn from him, followers of that Alevism they practice, can never cut their mustache and the agha clames he is in direct contact with İmam Ali. They all meet with closed eyes while the agha is having one of this conversations with the İmam, because if somebody ever opens the eyes while this conversation is taking place, İmam Ali will dissappear. Because of this, people obeys him and many give him money and lands as offerings, because they believe that that person is a holy person and in direct contact with the İmam.

Definitely sounds like that "agha" is a charlatan (swindler or trickster) practicing the usual quackery - using the "religion" excuse. We have cases here where gullible individuals have lost their entire savings to fortune-tellers - the civil courts and the police can usually do nothing (even though theoretically the fortune-teller could be found guilty of fraud) except alert the public. There are laws restricting fortune-tellers now to "entertaining" and people are allowed to pay for the service. A character in the Iranian movie تله ("The Trap", Tale or Taleh - you can watch it at "Iranproud.com") makes money telling fortunes to ignorant people. Uneducated people are taken advantage of everywhere.

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Re: Free talk

Postby alijsh » 2010-01-10, 17:56

kalemiye wrote:There are in fact Alevis in İran, but the current regime is trying to neutralize the influence of the religious aghas have over people.

I think you are mistaking Alavi with what we call «Aliallâ(h)i» in everyday language. Am I wrong?

In any case, I hadn't heard about Alavi. The Wikipedia article says that Ayatollah Khomeyni recognized Alevists as Muslim. Who are aghas? Like mullahs?

As for the Aliallâi, we had one in our street. They gathered at some fixed dates and had collective rituals until late night. Their downstair neighbor told that the dance is very noisy. They regard Imam Ali very high, as if he is God. That's why we call them Aliallâi.

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Re: Free talk

Postby kalemiye » 2010-01-10, 19:27

Yes, they are those Aliallahi, I was told their belief is a kind of Alevilik, but maybe my friends explained to me that way for me to understand. Let's see what Mert has to say :).

I didn't know Khomeyni had accepted the Alevis as muslim, but I know that the shiis in Turkey (Azeris mainly living in the area of Van) bring their mullahs from Iran.

Those aghas are like spiritual leaders somehow, like that man that was the one that was seeing Imam Ali. People gives them money, etc.
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