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alijsh
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby alijsh » 2010-01-03, 19:21

Gaile Irene wrote:Perhaps some cultures, such as the Persian, are more adaptable to change.

I also think so. Herodotus has also said it about Persians and Greeks.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-03, 20:51

All these discussions hurt me, friends. I feel disappointed.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-03, 22:40

nadi wrote:All these discussions hurt me, friends. I feel disappointed.


To everyone:

Hey guys! We are not here to hurt someone's feelings here, u know religion is one thing for which one can get hurted quite easily. So plz avoid such type of discussions as in this forum every type of people come, and basically it's a Persian learning forum. If we start arguing about our beliefs in this forum, then I'm sorry to say, our mutual understanding and respect for a common goal (i.e. Persian) will be gone. And we should also learn to respect other's perspective. So plz try to avoid such discussions. Hope you people won't mind my comment.

To Nadi:

We all do apologize. Now cheers :partyhat:
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2010-01-03, 22:55

Hassaan Zia wrote:
To everyone:

Hey guys! We are not here to hurt someone's feelings here, u know religion is one thing for which one can get hurted quite easily. So plz avoid such type of discussions as in this forum every type of people come, and basically it's a Persian learning forum. If we start arguing about our beliefs in this forum, then I'm sorry to say, our mutual understanding and respect for a common goal (i.e. Persian) will be gone. And we should also learn to respect other's perspective. So plz try to avoid such discussions. Hope you people won't mind my comment.



Language is not only grammer, but also culture. Culture consists of politics, food, sport; shortly that is everything of the community to which it belongs. I don't see any insult here.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-03, 23:29

nadi wrote:All these discussions hurt me, friends. I feel disappointed.

Hi, Nadi,
Sorry if you were offended by something. Nothing was meant against you personally. I guess we in the West are used to discussing more controversial topics than people in some other countries. Anyway, you have your opinion and I honor and defend your right to express it.

This reaction reminds me of a movie called "Arusi Persian Wedding".
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/arus ... /film.html
and
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/arus ... kback.html
In it there is a scene at a dinner party in the U.S. When the talk turns to a controversial topic - politics, the host tries to distract his guests and to change the subject of discussion with entreaties to "please try the fish!" The audience laughed uproariously recognizing this typically Persian maneuver.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-04, 17:44

Sorry friends, I apologise if I have reacted a bit exaggarated. I feel uneasy just because I am a member of that cultural environment that is being evaluated negatively here and I feel as if I let them down by reading all these and not reacting. While I oppose them here in my own society, when I hear things like you’ve said here from abroad, I can’t help reacting the criticisms.

It is partly because I can see what you say and I can gusess what you feel and think about them. Unfortunately, your point of view which you have displayed here is readily accepted all over the world and we become the object of discrimination just because of our identity cards. How would you feel if you were in such a situation?

Some time ago, one of my friends, who is an academician at a university here in Turkey was questioned by the police while he was visiting his family living in Europe. He says he was the only person questioned on the train and he felt this discrimination from the questions they asked him.

I also feel that many of you are talking with the self confidence of being a member of a prosperous, economically and socially superior community. You have money, you have a well-ordered social structure, knowledge, education, health care system, …
Have you ever asked yourselves, if you had similar conditions and background with those people you criticise, would you be the same as you are now?

I surprisingly see that, although they come from the same cultural environment, some friends are so eager to exaggarate and magnify the negative elements that are seen in their society. If you want, you can find tonns of them in any given society.

Some of what you have said are unfortunately true. I never support those inconvenient behaviours that you have pointed out here, but you shouldn't have done that by insulting and overgeneralising. Why shouldn’t it be their right to say “pork meat is forbidden in my religion.I don’t eat it.” What do you expect from those people? Should they bow and display their deep respect and loyalty the moment they see your brilliant, dazzling, undisputably perfect way of living and civilisation? Can they? Is it sociologically possible? How long does it take a community to change their believes, lifestyles? How long did it take you to become “perfect”? And, above all, have all those people who are criticised as being “stupid” been given a chance to be “clever” and “civilised” like you? Have you ever thought about why they are “idiots”?!!!

Please turn back and read what you’ve said about muslim religious people. Here are some:

“One sees these "pious" or "religious" people doing things that are plainly wrong or illegal (lying, tax-evasion, taking government benefits they are not qualified for, taking home things from restaurants or stores they should not, etc.) but these issues don't seem to matter to them.”

“Am I allowed to call this obsessive-compulsive behavior or narcissism or borderline personality disorder? (Others not so generous would call them "criminals".)”

“The easiest way to deal with such people - is not to! I try to keep such people out of my life. Unfortunately they often cause problems for others - their children sometimes become very confused and conflicted because of the lack of clear direction or reasoning as to what is wrong and what is right.”

?!!! If this is not discrimination, what is discrimination?

“I tell them "if you think the essence of being a good moslem is to not eat pork you are an idiot".”

“I can only imagine how confusing and annoying these guys must be to americans etc. Here in Sweden a racist party is growing because of this and will probably be in the parlament after the next election.”

Stupid people. Are there (m)any Iranians among them?”


So, if there aren't any Iranians, will it make you happy? I am confused.

These are just some of what you have written here. Can you see with what kind of adjectives you put those people together? Do you think you have the right to do this to others?

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2010-01-04, 18:51

Critism is something universal.



Why shouldn’t it be their right to say “pork meat is forbidden in my religion.I don’t eat it.” What do you expect from those people? Should they bow and display their deep respect and loyalty the moment they see your brilliant, dazzling, undisputably perfect way of living and civilisation? Can they? Is it sociologically possible? How long does it take a community to change their believes, lifestyles? How long did it take you to become “perfect”? And, above all, have all those people who are criticised as being “stupid” been given a chance to be “clever” and “civilised” like you? Have you ever thought about why they are “idiots”?!!!


Should we applause if a Muslim man beats his wife? Should we respect him, because beating woman is an order of the Koran?
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2010-01-04, 19:11

Mert wrote:Critism is something universal.



Why shouldn’t it be their right to say “pork meat is forbidden in my religion.I don’t eat it.” What do you expect from those people? Should they bow and display their deep respect and loyalty the moment they see your brilliant, dazzling, undisputably perfect way of living and civilisation? Can they? Is it sociologically possible? How long does it take a community to change their believes, lifestyles? How long did it take you to become “perfect”? And, above all, have all those people who are criticised as being “stupid” been given a chance to be “clever” and “civilised” like you? Have you ever thought about why they are “idiots”?!!!


Should we applause if a Muslim man beats his wife? Should we respect him, because beating woman is an order of the Koran?


There are other approached to this matter. In Spain there are massive nation-wide campaigns against domestic violence that do not refer to religion nor insult, they simply present the problem, what can you do if you are in that situation, and how to prevent it.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby camelkebab » 2010-01-04, 20:02

Why shouldn’t it be their right to say “pork meat is forbidden in my religion.I don’t eat it.”


this is not what i wrote, what you write is a completely different thing. I hope you understand. If someone said this to me i would totally respect it.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-05, 0:13

Camelkebab quoted someone as saying "don't eat pork, that is a sin, you are a bad moslem".

This is very different from Nadi's restatement: “pork meat is forbidden in my religion.I don’t eat it.”

In the first instance, the speaker tells the other person he is "bad" because he does not do what the first person says he must do! He implies that other other person is no good because he does not practice the religion in a certain way. The speaker has a "holier than thou" attitude and is putting down the other person. This is the attitude Camelkebab was complaining about.

What Nadi wrote was something quite different. Here the person was merely stating his own religious belief. It would be an appropriate answer to give if one were offered pork to eat. It is a good answer, because it educates. Sometimes Christians and members of other religions are unaware that some foods are forbidden to others. They might think the speaker is not hungry. Once informed, they might offer their guest a different food!

On the same topic, perhaps some day I'll tell you guys about some of the sad stories I know involving some religious hypocrites. There are a lot of bad stories, not just here in Philadelphia, but all over the world. Not just during Christmas and New Year's, but during Ashura as well! Anyway, I don't have the time now.

I hope we will continue to teach each other about Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, even Tehrangeles(!), and the rest of the world. I hope we will continue to feel free, and indeed welcome, to share our ideas, feelings, hopes and beliefs. The subjects might be like the weather - hot, warm, cool or cold - or they might be silly or serious or stressful like the recent one involving religious hypocrites. Members of our group might agree on some things and disagree on others - as the politicians say it "we agree to disagree" - but like politicians we must continue to work together in order to make progress in our Persian!

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-05, 2:34

Mert wrote:Should we applause if a Muslim man beats his wife? Should we respect him, because beating woman is an order of the Koran?


Pes doğrusu Mert Bey! Ne alakası var şimdi bu yazdıklarınızın tartışma konusuyla?
Hiç de yerinde olmayan bir konuyu bir dil öğrenim sitesinde açıp onca incitici lafı kendiniz de dahil, çünkü sonuçta siz de bu kültürün insanısınız, okuttuğunuz yetmiyormuş gibi bir de konuyu nerelere çekiyorsunuz. Gidin bu soruyu bu hurafeleri din diye ortaya koyanlara sorun. Yapmayın lütfen.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-05, 2:39

Friends, there is no relation between what I want to say and what Mert is trying to do. I didn't write all those to do a "the pot calling the kettle black" discussion. I just want to say that what you are doing here is beyond criticism, in terms of both style and content. You are associating some nationalities and a religion with these negative phrases. No one else knows the meaning of this better than you language experts.
Here are the adjectives that you put those people's nationalities and religion together. Read them and go back to the messages you have written and change the nationalities and religion with your own and read once again and see how you will feel. Some empathy would help you understand me.

illegal
lying
tax-evasion
taking government benefits they are not qualified for
taking home things from restaurants or stores they should not
obsessive-compulsive behavior
narcissism
borderline personality disorder
The easiest way to deal with such people - is not to! I try to keep such people out of my life.
they often cause problems for others
confused and conflicted
lack of clear direction or reasoning
idiot
confusing and annoying
racist party is growing because of this ?!!!
Stupid people
dictatorships and warlords
a symptom of a mental disease

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby camelkebab » 2010-01-05, 9:03

No Nadi, i think you lack empathy here. I think noone here thinks all muslims are like this, we wouldn't be here then. Gaile Irene has explained it very well.

Most of my friends are secularized muslims, some of us drink alcohol, some eat pork, some fast, some don't, etc. Noone thinks anyone is better than the other, but if someone tells us we are bad because of how we are we answer them.
And i have made the exact same observation as Gaile Irene regarding beeing good/bad in other areas about these people who act like this. Maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Note that most poeple do not act like this, but those who do are very visible.

About your friend who was controlled in a train: I look as much middle eastern as is possible :D don't you think i have been controlled? I could tell you storiiiiiies. Specially when i am too lazy to shave :lol: But it is never personal, they base it on statistics, they only do their jobs. I used to get extremely angry about this until i was 17-18 years old. The best is to don't be angry at all, but if you have anger point it at the right direction.

Maybe this should not be in the Persian forum, i have never seen an Iranian behave like this.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-05, 14:34

It has no relation with being secular. No one can be more secular than me. I believe that if there is a gift given to my country, it is the fact that it is a secular country. For me, personal freedom of belief and expressing ideas and opinions freely are the meaning of life. It is the meaning of being human. When these values are in question, I am with you, but when you insult, I object this.
I can’t support those bad examples of illiteracy that are given here. It is out of question in this era of freedom, but I don’t think anyone has the right to insult, to overgeneralise and to discriminate, either.
What I want to say that some friends are using the negative behaviours of some uneducated people who don’t know even the sources of their own believes and culture to insult the whole civilisation they are in. Their comfort in using words such as “idiots” easily and jauntily makes me uneasy. Their readiness to question people, their arrogant style makes me uneasy. And I also wonder if they can use the same style of “criticism” to any given second culture. I am doubtful. So, why me?
The reason why these religious people behave like this, can another way be possible for anyone in their place, if we can blame them so easily and if we have the right to expel them form the country like a friend here said are the subject of another thread, ofcourse.
I want to say my last words and will leave the thread friends, I see I have little chance to make myself understood here. Also, I don’t think we can make a language thread busy any longer. I feel guilty about it, but my excuse and consolation is the fact that I didn’t start it.

Edit:
Just one example to what happens to those people you criticise when they are given a chance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Slx5ikCEU&feature=fvw
Last edited by nadi on 2010-01-05, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby alijsh » 2010-01-05, 15:03

I have a math exam Saturday and until after the exam, I can't read all the posts and reply thoroughly. Just a comment about this:

nadi wrote:
Mert wrote:Should we applause if a Muslim man beats his wife? Should we respect him, because beating woman is an order of the Koran?


Pes doğrusu Mert Bey! Ne alakası var şimdi bu yazdıklarınızın tartışma konusuyla?
Hiç de yerinde olmayan bir konuyu bir dil öğrenim sitesinde açıp onca incitici lafı kendiniz de dahil, çünkü sonuçta siz de bu kültürün insanısınız, okuttuğunuz yetmiyormuş gibi bir de konuyu nerelere çekiyorsunuz. Gidin bu soruyu bu hurafeleri din diye ortaya koyanlara sorun. Yapmayın lütfen.

It is wrong to associate some things to religion. For instance, beating a woman has nothing to do with religion and is seen in every country, no matter if the man — nominally — follows a religion or is an atheist. Associating such things to religion, be it Islam or any other religion, is just aimed to spoil it or such. A normal man, never beats a woman. So, don't involve religion in such things.

Anyway Mert, I think you have misinterpreted Koran on this issue.

It's no problem to talk about it in this forum. If necessary, I'll open a «free discussion» thread. We must talk and learn from each other. When your Persian became good, I can introduce/paste you good sources about religion and such. Persian is one the best sources for learning about religion and human .

- Now, I must back to my books.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-06, 4:56

nadi wrote:
I want to say my last words and will leave the thread friends

You have made a tactical mistake by saying those words - you have painted yourself into a corner! I will be like a dentist and talk and talk - and you, like the poor patient whose mouth is wide open but cannot speak, must listen and listen! And if you dare attempt to answer - I will yell "you said your last words already!"

nadi wrote:Just one example to what happens to those people you criticise when they are given a chance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Slx5ikCEU&feature=fvw

You can see a film shot by the same young Afghan woman Nadi referred to, Sahar Adish, where she describes her path to freedom. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_gP4e2aL6w (The movie can be viewed at other sites, just Google "Sahar" and "Before the Sun".)

The story of Sahar Adish resonates with Americans because she typifies "The American Dream". Sahar's family fled oppressive religious intolerance to make a new life in America. I don't see how she compares to the type of people I complained about in my posts. If anything, she, her family, and millions more are terrorized and victimized by religious fanatics who self-righteously want to impose their own version of religion on everyone.

Sahar's family came to America as refugees. http://aands.virginia.edu/x11101.xml As described in this article from the University of Virginia, on "Aug. 15, 1998, Taliban loyalists came knocking at the Adishes’ apartment door in Kabul, tipped off that Kamela [Sahar's mother] was defying a ban on educating girls by teaching ... in her home. The Taliban had occupied Kabul two years earlier and imposed its brand of sharia, or Muslim religious law. ... When a child answered the knock, men pushed into the apartment. ... The intruders beat Kamela. “They said, ‘We are going to kill you for this business. You broke our law,’” (Indeed, Sahar’s film includes a series of three photographs of another woman being led into the street and shot.) ... Naeem [Sahar's father] arrived home from his job ... He was immediately seized, beaten and taken away. ... The next night, a mullah arrived to tell Kamela that she was to be executed the following night, and asked if she had any last messages for Naeem. She insisted on seeing her husband; he was brought to her around midnight. When the 4 a.m. call to prayer went out, she was allowed to escape. Neighbors had begged for her life, and assured authorities that she would not teach again. The Adishes quickly fled to Pakistan."

Now if I criticize some Taliban and use phrases like "self-righteous religious hypocrites", "intimidating criminals", or suggest some "personality disorder" - are you going to jump on me and accuse me of being unfair to them, against Islam, racist, etc.? Am I obliged to be politically correct and not express my true opinions? Because I do not like intolerant remarks made to my Jewish neighbor by a man who should not have left that attitude behind in Afghanistan?

This topic produces controversy. Indeed, if you look at the comments under the first YouTube site where Sahar gives her speech, you will see many comments reflecting sectarian emotions and inter-ethnic animosity. Interesting.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-06, 13:47

Gaile Irene wrote: Now if I criticize some Taliban and use phrases like "self-righteous religious hypocrites", "intimidating criminals", or suggest some "personality disorder" - are you going to jump on me and accuse me of being unfair to them, against Islam, racist, etc.? Am I obliged to be politically correct and not express my true opinions? Because I do not like intolerant remarks made to my Jewish neighbor by a man who should not have left that attitude behind in Afghanistan?

Please! What you are doing is just unfair! Just hitting below the belt. You know what I mean, but it is clear that you are well endowed and experienced to attack and I am afraid, if your feelings are not hatred, They are just one step away from it. If you hadn't mentioned Taliban, I wouldn't even answer you but it is too much. How can you bring the subject to a terrorist organisation and hit me with them? Can you say it is fair? Taliban is the most unfortunate and fatal disaster that has ever happened to us and as you see, they are causing you to hit us with them. I think it shows what I mean.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-07, 1:24

nadi wrote:How can you ... hit me with them? ... they are causing you to hit us

I am puzzled, Nadi. When you used the word "me" I understood that is you personally, the singular you - Nadi. However, when you used the word "us", I don't know for sure who you mean. Could you please tell me who is "us"?

I thought I was clear that I was referring to the Taliban. Indeed, because you, Nadi, were the first person in the world who brought the inspiring story of Sahar to my attention, I thought you, too, admired her; that you shared my disgust for the situation that made her flee her country - and that our thoughts were similar. When I expressed my anger for what the Taliban had done to her family, I had no idea that I would be insulting you - either in the plural or the singular.

Were you upset perhaps when I wrote that you had painted yourself into a corner? By mentioning the dentist and the patient analogy I hoped that you understood that I was saying this lightheartedly. Honestly, Nadi, I meant no offense to you. I was just pointing out that when one says things like "I will say my last word and leave" one in effect limits one's means of action. One seldom knows in advance what will happen, therefore it is generally good to keep one's options open. I meant this as friendly advice, not as a threat.

* * *
I use strong language because I choose to. I am not a diplomat or a psychiatrist trying to convince someone to change his behavior. If I had chosen to, I certainly could have said something like "the Taliban believed that education would be harmful for girls and believed in taking preventive measures to protect girls from the ill effects of schooling." That would have been a very PC (politically correct) sentence. Instead, because I am free to do so, I singled them out for using religion for bad purposes and called them "intimidating criminals" because I like to call a prune, a prune, and not a dried plum or something else it is not! (I would have used the original saying that is "call a spade a spade" but apparently some people now take offense at the use of the word "spade" because it has become associated with some negative connotations. Also, my own substitution for the original word "spade" with "prune" here might upset the California Prune Board that is trying to market prunes now under the name "dried plums" rather than prunes. The "word police" are everywhere.) But back to the subject. How far apart are we in our thinking - and how close are we?

One can find many interesting cases involving misuse of religion. I could have related details about a few. For example, describing actual cases prosecuted by U.S. authorities, I could have accused Mr. M. of using his religion, co-religionists and ties to the Middle East to steal millions of dollars. I could have condemned Mr. J. who used his religious reputation and contacts with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. I would then have watched as some sensitive but dear friends indignantly grab words intended for others, and twist them into their own hearts and emotionally cry out in pain that they, or their people, were being targeted. That they personally are being attacked. I then could have explained that Mr. M. was Bernie Madoff, the narcissist who "made off" with the money and defrauded thousands of Jewish and Israeli investors and that Mr. J. was Robert Jennings, the hypocritical criminal pastor of a California Christian church who used prayer meetings to trick believers out of millions of dollars. To me it appears that sometimes people think much of the whole world is against them and take offense too quickly and erroneously.

Unfortunately I personally have witnessed and know people who have experienced religion being used as a pretext for putting down others, for violence, for intimidation, and for common criminal activity. Further, I share the typical American objection to any attempts to force religion onto anyone. However, I believe some people make a mistake. They think a complaint about some individuals who happen to be Muslim is a complaint about a whole race, or religion and react indignantly. Yes, many of the cases I know about happen to involve Muslims. And, yes, there were events over the recent holidays - one affecting me, one witnessed by me, and a third affecting someone I know. And of course there were crises in the news on Christmas Day and Ashura. There were even a comment on this message board that it might be improper to celebrate New Year's. Coming all at once - these spurred me to write.

I believe that when someone uses religion for a wrong purpose they should be stopped - either through persuasion or through force. Sometimes, due to circumstances beyond our control some of us cannot do anything about a problem. And too often people do nothing. They walk off saying "It's not my business" or "It is God's will". I believe in trying to fix things and the first step to fixing things is understanding a problem. As I explained, I wrote my original post after a series of events that made me upset. I wanted to see how some people overseas think about the subject - if they think the same way - and I got a variety of reactions! I thank all of you for answering my question.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Meera » 2010-01-08, 5:14

camelkebab wrote:.

I have a funny haram story:
One colleague (from Irak) told me that when the space shuttle columbia exploded it was because going to space is haram. The funny thing is that he is an engineer. :lol:


I have a funny haram story too! My parents own a resturant in Philadelphia and i waitress there sometimes. One time a Muslim man (a convert from christianty and he was american!) came into the resturant. He had the tradtional arab clothes on, the white scarf and robe etc. I dont where a hibjab, so when he saw me he covered his eyes and said that I should get a male waiter to serve him :P

and nadi, dont feel hurt. Theres good and bad in every country.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-08, 12:20

Meera wrote:
I have a funny haram story too! My parents own a resturant in Philadelphia and i waitress there sometimes. One time a Muslim man (a convert from christianty and he was american!) came into the resturant. He had the tradtional arab clothes on, the white scarf and robe etc. I dont where a hibjab, so when he saw me he covered his eyes and said that I should get a male waiter to serve him :P


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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