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nadi
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2009-12-21, 16:06

I don't think it is proper here to begin a chicken and egg argument about Turkey's Kurdish, or democratization policies because the process is just at the beginning and it hasn't given its fruits vividly yet. On the other hand social changes don't show themselves like a newly painted house and as far as I see many people around don't know what is really happening in Turkey nowadays. What I would like to say is that the Turkish society has the determination and courage to change positively.I think at least this should be appreciated.

Edit:
I think we should give a chance to democratic "açılım" before we criticize Turkish policies.
Last edited by nadi on 2009-12-21, 16:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2009-12-21, 16:11

nadi wrote:I don't think it is proper here to begin a chicken and egg argument about Turkey's Kurdish, or democratization policies because the process is just at the beginning and it hasn't given its fruits vividly yet. On the other hand social changes don't show themselves like a newly painted house and as far as I see many people around don't know what is really happening in Turkey nowadays. What I would like to say is that the Turkish society has the determination and courage to change positively.I think at least this should be appreciated.


I totally agree, definitely the situation of Kurds has improved incredibly in the recent period of Turkey's history.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2010-01-01, 20:30

Firstly, happy new year! :partyhat:

And I have a question:

Some claim that celebrating new year of gregorian calender is sin, because it doesn't belong to Islamic culture. Moreover a group of Turkish mullahs protested at the celebrating. So, is it ban to celebrate new year in Iran? :hmm:
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby huhmzah » 2010-01-01, 22:49

In my opnion, just because historically at one point the Muslim administration decided to calculate its dates from the Hijra doesn't automatically render all other methods of keeping a track of dates "unislamic". I'm not sure what Islamic culture is considering Islam can manifest itself in various garbs and does -- one can be Persian or an American and partake in Persian or American "culture" (food, dress, language, aesthetics etc) and still be a practicing Muslim. I'm Pakistani and our indigenous "Islam" is superimposed onto an underlying Indian culture -- excluding practices/cultural norms clearly in opposition to Islamic values (say, the caste system), all else (at least in my opinion) is fair game :). So celebrating a cultural festival that has no real religious significance any more (and even if it does, it's not one that could be offensive to Muslim sensibilities regardless -- the birth of Jesus) I can't see why celebrating that would become a sin. Sin's too heavy a word for those Turkish mullah's to be throwing around. I don't think Islam has any homogeneous "cultural" reality but rather traverses many and not everything outside the historical development of Islam is inherently unislamic. Doesn't Iran have it's own native pre-Muslim calendar system as well?

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-01, 22:51

Mert wrote:Some claim that celebrating new year of gregorian calender is sin, because it doesn't belong to Islamic culture. Moreover a group of Turkish mullahs protested at the celebrating.


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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Hassaan Zia » 2010-01-01, 22:53

huhmzah wrote:In my opnion, just because historically at one point the Muslim administration decided to calculate its dates from the Hijra doesn't automatically render all other methods of keeping a track of dates "unislamic". I'm not sure what Islamic culture is considering Islam can manifest itself in various garbs and does -- one can be Persian or an American and partake in Persian or American "culture" (food, dress, language, aesthetics etc) and still be a practicing Muslim. I'm Pakistani and our indigenous "Islam" is superimposed onto an underlying Indian culture -- excluding practices/cultural norms clearly in opposition to Islamic values (say, the caste system), all else (at least in my opinion) is fair game :). So celebrating a cultural festival that has no real religious significance any more (and even if it does, it's not one that could be offensive to Muslim sensibilities regardless -- the birth of Jesus) I can't see why celebrating that would become a sin. Sin's too heavy a word for those Turkish mullah's to be throwing around. I don't think Islam has any homogeneous "cultural" reality but rather traverses many and not everything outside the historical development of Islam is inherently unislamic. Doesn't Iran have it's own native pre-Muslim calendar system as well?


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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby alijsh » 2010-01-02, 6:07

Mert wrote:Some claim that celebrating new year of gregorian calender is sin, because it doesn't belong to Islamic culture. Moreover a group of Turkish mullahs protested at the celebrating. So, is it ban to celebrate new year in Iran? :hmm:

It is a cultural issue and we must not interfere religion. Since it is not apparently part of your culture to celebrate it, they want to confront it with misusing religion and religious beliefs of people. They said we must read Koran in Arabic, pray in Arabic, write in Arabic, … as if God just knows Arabic. We have had enough of it. So, judge about it culturally. If you can accept it to enter your culture, then follow it. Forgive my ignorance: do you follow Arabs in calendar and new year? Another question: What was your calendar and new year system before Islam or before adopting the Arab calendar (if you have adopted it)?

It is not banned in Iran. Armenians celebrate it. Besides, we have Nowruz which is an indispensable part of our culture. When we were registering Nowruz in the UNESCO list of Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, Turkey was one of the participant countries. So, I'm wondering why Turkey participated. Just because of Kurds? Or Turks celebrated it in the past?

Take it from me: don't listen to whatever mullah's say you. They sometimes impose their ideas in the name of religion. Use your thinking power. If what they say sounds rational, follow it. Otherwise, ignore it. For example, they had forbidden chess and said, it is sin to play it. Now, it is not. How can something be a sin at one time and not, at another time? They say playing cards is sin but why actually? Anything can be bad. With a knife, you can both kill someone and also rescue someone (like a surgeon). So, knife is not bad in itself. Playing cards are not only for gambling. So, we must think and don't accept blindly whatever they say. The case you mentioned also falls to this group. Having a calendar system different from that of Arabs — which is passed off as ISLAMIC to make us accept it — and observing it, isn't a sin.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-02, 16:20

It is not a big issue in Turkey, in fact. On 31st December I was invited both to a new year party and to a program celebrating the conquest of Mecca. Thousands of people met in the most popular squares of many cities and welcomed the new year and many others went to mosques and other places to celebrate the conquest of Mecca.
I totally agree with Alish at this point. I never accept anything which are imposed to me by people who claim they are talking on behalf of religion unless I search and believe it with my free will. The book on the history of Islam which I have been reading for sometime has clearly shown me that those who claim they are talking on behalf of religion may be the biggest liars of a religion.

There is another occasion going on in Turkey nowadays. Women are making ashure, a kind of dessert made from at least 7 different kinds of food, and they are serving this ashure to their neighbours and friends. This is to commemorate the last meal of Noah on the ship before landing.
Here is a picture of some ashure:
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby huhmzah » 2010-01-02, 16:35

بہ نظر خیلی خوشمزہ می رسد
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2010-01-02, 17:10

huhmzah wrote:
بہ نظر خیلی خوشمزہ می رسد
:D


اری، خشلی خوشمزه است! اگر می‌آیید، برای شما هم می‌سازیم :)

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-03, 2:09

Here in the U.S. one's right to religious freedom is included in the very first amendment to the Constitution (the supreme law of the land). In recent years, certain Muslims have come to the U.S. and tried to impose their own particular version of Islam on other Muslims. They say it is haram to have Christian friends or to wish your Christian neighbor a "Merry Christmas", they say it is haram to eat turkey on Thanksgiving (a national holiday where turkey is a traditional meal), that it is haram to celebrate a child's birthday party, that is is haram for any Muslim to sing or to participate in a dance class in school. I can't help but think why do they feel the need to control other people so much? They came to this country and must respect other people's rights to interpret their own religion in their own way. I then think, why don't they go back to their dictatorships and warlords, since they like to tell people what they should and should not do. Imagine, one of my neighbors, who is a very generous and kind woman and happens to be Jewish, told me about another neighborhood where she used to live. Refugees from Afghanistan moved in across from her house. The man of the house, an Afghan, one day said to her that he was upset that a Jewish family lived close to him. If you can't tolerate Jews or people who are of a different faith or who believe differently from you - if you cannot tolerate it, go back to where you came from! Feeling that you must control others in everything is a symptom of a mental disease.
I wonder, those of you outside of the States, do you feel sometimes that others are trying to force you to follow their own personal interpretations of Islam and how you should live your life? How do you feel when they tell you it is forbidden to you as a Muslim to wish your neighbor a Happy New Year? That a holiday you celebrate is haram? How do you feel about such issues?

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2010-01-03, 2:53

Gaile Irene wrote:Here in the U.S. one's right to religious freedom is included in the very first amendment to the Constitution (the supreme law of the land). In recent years, certain Muslims have come to the U.S. and tried to impose their own particular version of Islam on other Muslims. They say it is haram to have Christian friends or to wish your Christian neighbor a "Merry Christmas", they say it is haram to eat turkey on Thanksgiving (a national holiday where turkey is a traditional meal), that it is haram to celebrate a child's birthday party, that is is haram for any Muslim to sing or to participate in a dance class in school. I can't help but think why do they feel the need to control other people so much? They came to this country and must respect other people's rights to interpret their own religion in their own way. I then think, why don't they go back to their dictatorships and warlords, since they like to tell people what they should and should not do. Imagine, one of my neighbors, who is a very generous and kind woman and happens to be Jewish, told me about another neighborhood where she used to live. Refugees from Afghanistan moved in across from her house. The man of the house, an Afghan, one day said to her that he was upset that a Jewish family lived close to him. If you can't tolerate Jews or people who are of a different faith or who believe differently from you - if you cannot tolerate it, go back to where you came from! Feeling that you must control others in everything is a symptom of a mental disease.
I wonder, those of you outside of the States, do you feel sometimes that others are trying to force you to follow their own personal interpretations of Islam and how you should live your life? How do you feel when they tell you it is forbidden to you as a Muslim to wish your neighbor a Happy New Year? That a holiday you celebrate is haram? How do you feel about such issues?


I think it is not that easy to get used to live in a foreign country. I lived one year in Turkey (no big deal), and definitely my culture clashed sometimes with that of Turks.

Their holidays had no meaning for me (nor the secular ones, nor the religious ones), even if I greeted them wholeheartedly and shared iftar table with my friends. The call for prayer was particularly annoying sometimes, I lived just by a mosque, and definitely it was particularly bothersome during ramazan, when some people played drums to remind fasters the beginning of the fast (it was definitely meaningless for me as well for obvious reasons).

Not only that. I had to learn their rules of courtesy, the do and do-nots, and start from a scratch (making new friends, getting used to the way things work there, my lessons, I struggle with the language A LOT). Trying to understand Turkish mentality also took me much time, not to mention that I think that still I don't understand it.

But one has to have very clear in mind what are the rules of co-existing, and that requires a good deal of predisposition to accept other people's cultures, and also accept them as part of your daily life.

Some people did not leave their countries at own will, and their mentalities are not ready to accept the different reality they live in, nor they are willing to make that reality they are living in a part of their own lives. Sometimes even when people leave their country at their own will, they are not willing to make their temporary or not so temporary residence customs and culture a part of their own.

You don't need to go to the example of the Afghan man, many Europeans and Americans behave same way. I knew some people that travelled to Eastern Turkey to celebrate Nowrooz, and when they came back to Ankara they came boasting how great the party was, but had no idea about the history of Nowrooz or why it was important for their Kurdish friends. For that people, Nowrooz is some exotic holiday of Turkey. They live in their European oasis in the middle of Turkey. Those Afghans want to create an Afghan oasis in the middle of the US.

Both attitudes imply a disdain for foreign cultures, although one is sanctioned by religion, and the other by a sense of superiority that seems to be sanctioned culturally.

Whatever it is....

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby alijsh » 2010-01-03, 4:18

Gaile Irene wrote:it is haram to have Christian friends or to wish your Christian neighbor a "Merry Christmas", they say it is haram to eat turkey on Thanksgiving (a national holiday where turkey is a traditional meal), that it is haram to celebrate a child's birthday party, that is is haram for any Muslim to sing or to participate in a dance class in school.

Stupid people. Are there (m)any Iranians among them? As far as I know Iranians, they typically assimilate and even, many of them become more American than Americans :P Some of the rules are very amazing. For example, we ourselves have birthday party! Only the last one (dance) is worth thinking :wink:

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-03, 7:09

I know only a few Iranians here and don't have much contact with them. These issues of religious control and "haram" saying usually involve Arabs, Africans and Pakistanis. Because I speak Arabic I have heard many stories about "haram" sayers. Some of my Arab friends repeat these stories about what is "haram" to each other and then do what they want to do! They realize "It's a free country." The people who follow the dictates of the "haram" sayers tend to live in their own little societies, have nothing to do with people who think differently, and keep on trying to control everybody else.
Last edited by Gaile Irene on 2010-01-03, 17:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby camelkebab » 2010-01-03, 10:01

bah, people who say "this and that is haram" are in essence saying "i am better than them". They are losers who try to gain confidence this way.

I see myself as a secularized moslem and these "pure moslems" with no understanding to others who talk like this are quite something :? . They say crazy stuff like "don't eat pork, that is a sin, you are a bad moslem". I tell them "if you think the essence of being a good moslem is to not eat pork you are an idiot". The essence of all religions is simply to bee a good person.

I can only imagine how confusing and annoying these guys must be to americans etc. Here in Sweden a racist party is growing because of this and will probably be in the parlament after the next election.

I have a funny haram story:
One colleague (from Irak) told me that when the space shuttle columbia exploded it was because going to space is haram. The funny thing is that he is an engineer. :lol:

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby camelkebab » 2010-01-03, 10:05

As far as I know Iranians, they typically assimilate and even, many of them become more American than Americans :P


this is just so weird :D but it is very true, i will never understand this.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2010-01-03, 12:00

camelkebab wrote:
I have a funny haram story:
One colleague (from Irak) told me that when the space shuttle columbia exploded it was because going to space is haram. The funny thing is that he is an engineer. :lol:


I have a same story about that:

I had a friend at the dormitory where I stayed 6 years ago. He was a student at the geophysics department. He told me earthquake was a punishment of Allah. A great earthquake happened in Turkey in 1999, because the people who lived at the region where the earthquake happened weren't Islamic, he claimed. Whereupon I told him that: "So, why did the Bam earthquake in Iran happen? 50.000 people died of the earthquake. Whereas Iran is an Islamic republic". He shouted at me: "You don't have belief, you are kafir" :D
Last edited by Mert on 2010-01-03, 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-03, 15:57

Mert wrote:He shouted at me: "You don't have belief, you are kafir" :D

Interesting about the man shouting - shouting and making loud accusations are techniques often used by abusive people who want to control others. They shout and accuse to intimidate or scare. Most people don't like confrontation - they back down, avoid, or go along with the abusive controlling person so as not to cause a problem. Here you saw the technique in action - can you imagine what it would be like to be married to or live in a family with such a person?

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-03, 16:39

camelkebab wrote:"don't eat pork, that is a sin, you are a bad moslem".

The issue about not eating ham or pork meat is a basic tenet of Islam and other religions. However, there are other areas unrelated to eating the actual meat that Muslims are pressured to conform to. Here there are many people who won't eat chicken or beef if they were not slaughtered according to halal rules - so they eat fish or crustaceans (shellfish) exclusively. Others won't take vitamins for their health because the gelatin used in their processing is haram. One sees these "pious" or "religious" people doing things that are plainly wrong or illegal (lying, tax-evasion, taking government benefits they are not qualified for, taking home things from restaurants or stores they should not, etc.) but these issues don't seem to matter to them. It is as if they think that because they cover every hair on the head, refuse to take vitamins, and will not wish someone a Happy New Year, everything else they do is okay. Am I allowed to call this obsessive-compulsive behavior or narcissism or borderline personality disorder? (Others not so generous would call them "criminals".) The easiest way to deal with such people - is not to! I try to keep such people out of my life. Unfortunately they often cause problems for others - their children sometimes become very confused and conflicted because of the lack of clear direction or reasoning as to what is wrong and what is right.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Gaile Irene » 2010-01-03, 17:11

kalemiye wrote:Some people did not leave their countries at own will, and their mentalities are not ready to accept the different reality they live in, nor they are willing to make that reality they are living in a part of their own lives. Sometimes even when people leave their country at their own will, they are not willing to make their temporary or not so temporary residence customs and culture a part of their own.

alijsh wrote:Are there (m)any Iranians among them? As far as I know Iranians, they typically assimilate and even, many of them become more American than Americans

Yes, some people come here and seem to spend their entire lives avoiding the country. It is as if they seek to avoid life itself! Perhaps some cultures, such as the Persian, are more adaptable to change.


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