General discussion

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General discussion

Postby alijsh » 2009-12-18, 15:08

The following post splits from the topic مناسبت‌ها (Occasions), starting from this post and ending in this post in this topic.

And with this split, we have now a thread to freely talk about non-language topics related to Persian-speaking countries and people: culture, religion, society, institutions, … Just: please stay away from politics as much as possible.

And it is expected to only have talks among Persian-learning Unilangers. Thanks dear lurkers for your understanding.

Edit on 2010-sep-05
1- renaming the topic from «Free talk» to «General discussion», which I found it to be named so in other forums

2-Removing the restriction strikethroughed above

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Postby eskandar » 2009-12-20, 21:59

Mert wrote:I want to ask: How come do you celebrate such a day? This is against Islam, isn't it? Because this is related to the mythology before Islam.

Mert, just because something came before Islam doesn't mean that it is against Islam. Nowruz (Nevruz) is one of the biggest holidays in Iran, and its origin is in Zoroastrianism. However, both Nowruz and Shab-e Yaldâ have lost their original religious meanings and become holidays celebrated by all Iranians, regardless of religion.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Meera » 2009-12-21, 7:12

eskandar wrote:Mert, just because something came before Islam doesn't mean that it is against Islam. Nowruz (Nevruz) is one of the biggest holidays in Iran, and its origin is in Zoroastrianism. However, both Nowruz and Shab-e Yaldâ have lost their original religious meanings and become holidays celebrated by all Iranians, regardless of religion.


Afghans too :)
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2009-12-21, 9:11

Meera wrote:
eskandar wrote:Mert, just because something came before Islam doesn't mean that it is against Islam. Nowruz (Nevruz) is one of the biggest holidays in Iran, and its origin is in Zoroastrianism. However, both Nowruz and Shab-e Yaldâ have lost their original religious meanings and become holidays celebrated by all Iranians, regardless of religion.


Afghans too :)


Nowruz is celebrated in Turkey mostly by Kurds, but it's not an official holiday. Çarşamba sûri is celebrated too. There are some special TV shows about it in TRT, if I remember correctly, since it is celebrated by other Turkic peoples, for instance Azeris or Türkmens.

Probably this year there will be a special program in TRT 6 (a Kurdish language TV channel).
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2009-12-21, 9:57

kalemiye wrote:
Meera wrote:
eskandar wrote:Mert, just because something came before Islam doesn't mean that it is against Islam. Nowruz (Nevruz) is one of the biggest holidays in Iran, and its origin is in Zoroastrianism. However, both Nowruz and Shab-e Yaldâ have lost their original religious meanings and become holidays celebrated by all Iranians, regardless of religion.


Afghans too :)


Nowruz is celebrated in Turkey mostly by Kurds, but it's not an official holiday. Çarşamba sûri is celebrated too. There are some special TV shows about it in TRT, if I remember correctly, since it is celebrated by other Turkic peoples, for instance Azeris or Türkmens.

Probably this year there will be a special program in TRT 6 (a Kurdish language TV channel).


Newroz seems a "horror day" for Turks. In every newroz some Kurdish groups propagandize PKK, that's why police attack them. Newroz festival becomes a battle area. By the way, Kurds wants to call the festival "newroz" in Kurdish, but there is no "w" letter in Turkish. According to the laws, it is forbidden to use a letter apart from Turkish letters.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby eskandar » 2009-12-21, 11:49

kalemiye wrote:Nowruz is celebrated in Turkey mostly by Kurds, but it's not an official holiday.

Actually, it is an official holiday in Turkey now. See here.

Mert wrote:According to the laws, it is forbidden to use a letter apart from Turkish letters.

I have to tell you that in the rest of the world (the West, the Middle East, and elsewhere) the ban on non-Turkish letters is seen as absurd, ridiculous, and racist. It was put in place specifically to discriminate against Kurds, and it is unfairly used against them and doesn't apply to non-Kurds; for instance the letters x, w, and q don't exist in Turkish and the Turkish government punishes Kurds for using these letters, like in October 2005:

Reuters news wrote:A Turkish court has fined 20 people for using the letters Q and W on placards at a Kurdish new year celebration, under a law that bans use of characters not in the Turkish alphabet, rights campaigners said. The court in the southeastern city of Siirt fined each of the 20 people 100 new lira ($75.53) for holding up the placards, written in Kurdish, at the event last year. The letters Q and W do not exist in the Turkish alphabet.

However, they don't do anything to Xerox, Volkswagen, Hewlett Packard, BMW, Quark XPress, or many other companies in Turkey, because they are not Kurdish. This is clearly unfair discrimination. Maybe if Turkey treated Kurds like human beings, they wouldn't join groups like the PKK.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2009-12-21, 13:02

eskandar wrote: Maybe if Turkey treated Kurds like human beings, they wouldn't join groups like the PKK.


As long as Turks don't see Kurdish reality, we'll suffer from this problem more. We choose fighting instead of understanding each other.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2009-12-21, 13:31

eskandar wrote:I have to tell you that in the rest of the world (the West, the Middle East, and elsewhere) the ban on non-Turkish letters is seen as absurd, ridiculous, and racist. It was put in place specifically to discriminate against Kurds, and it is unfairly used against them and doesn't apply to non-Kurds; for instance the letters x, w, and q don't exist in Turkish and the Turkish government punishes Kurds for using these letters


These words are the names of some programmes of the Kurdish channel of TRT, TRT6:
Hewaname
Xeber
Xon U Kerwon
Weşanxane

As you see there isn't such a case any more. Turkey is trying to be a member of EU and is making amendments to bring its standards in accordance with the European standards. You can see this in every field and every part of life. Yes, we have some problems but I can say that even now our standards of democracy and human rights are much better than many countries in the region. At least, we have the will to change and to be better.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby alijsh » 2009-12-21, 13:36

Mert wrote:يلدا is used as a woman name in Turkish as well.

Ditto.

Mert wrote:By the way, I've heart that براي is also used as name in Turkey.

How do you pronounce it? I doubt it is the preposition barâ, which itself comprises of the preposition ba (به) and the object particle râ (را). It must be another word.

Mert wrote:I want to ask: How come do you celebrate such a day? This is against Islam, isn't it? Because this is related to the mythology before Islam.

Well, people have a different philosophy. Firstly, it is the longest night of the year. Secondly, Iranians divided the winter into several periods. I won't go into details. Just know that they called the first fourty days of the winter «chelle (ye bozorg)». So, this night has two points: being the longest and being the starting point for the chelle.

In fact, yaldâ is not a popular name. It is called «shab-e chelle». Yaldâ might be officially-prevailing today, but traditionally (in popular culture), including my father's generation, it is definitely called «shab-e chelle». I myself always call it so. It is the original name and has a clear story (division of the winter).

I don't know how it has been related to Mithra. I doubt because if it was related, the strict muslims of early Islam had forbidden it like many other customs. Like the caliph Umar who destroyed much of pre-Islamic Persian books. To conclude, I must add that there is a tendency among the young generation to revive some pre-Islamic fests like sepandarmazgan, Tirgan, …. It is very chic :wink:

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2009-12-21, 13:40

Mert wrote:
eskandar wrote: Maybe if Turkey treated Kurds like human beings, they wouldn't join groups like the PKK.


As long as Turks don't see Kurdish reality, we'll suffer from this problem more. We choose fighting instead of understanding each other.


Are you sure you are following the recent changes in Turkey, Mert? I have to remind you of the fact that you are talking about a country whose prime minister is speaking Kurdish on its official TV channel. Plus, we are talking about a very recent process which is in progress yet.

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby alijsh » 2009-12-21, 13:44

nadi wrote:you are talking about a country whose prime minister is speaking Kurdish on its official TV channel.

You mean Erdoğan?

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby eskandar » 2009-12-21, 13:45

nadi wrote:These words are the names of some programmes of the Kurdish channel of TRT, TRT6:
Hewaname
Xeber
Xon U Kerwon
Weşanxane

As you see there isn't such a case any more. Turkey is trying to be a member of EU and is making amendments to bring its standards in accordance with the European standards. You can see this in every field and every part of life.

I see. I wasn't aware of some of the recent changes in Turkey (and I guess Mert wasn't either ;)). So, I congratulate Turkey for making progress on the Kurdish issue. :)
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2009-12-21, 13:49

alijsh wrote:
nadi wrote:you are talking about a country whose prime minister is speaking Kurdish on its official TV channel.

You mean Erdoğan?


Yes, he started the Kurdish broadcast of TRT by saying "Kanal şeş be kheir be". (Sorry for my poor Kurdish.)

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2009-12-21, 13:55

alijsh wrote:
Mert wrote:By the way, I've heart that براي is also used as name in Turkey.

How do you pronounce it? I doubt it is the preposition barâ, which itself comprises of the preposition ba (به) and the object particle râ (را). It must be another word.



We pronunciate it "Beray" Just like that: براي
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby nadi » 2009-12-21, 14:01

Beray = Ay'ın en ışıltılı, en parlak hali (the brightest phase of the Moon)

http://www.isimarsivi.com/isim/941-Beray.html

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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2009-12-21, 14:15

eskandar wrote:
kalemiye wrote:Nowruz is celebrated in Turkey mostly by Kurds, but it's not an official holiday.

Actually, it is an official holiday in Turkey now. See here.


Wonderful, because it totally contradicts what is written here (they didn't even bother themselves to update it since 2008): http://www.kultur.gov.tr/TR/Genel/BelgeGoster.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFF8AB2E675B78192E8FF57EDA7516DB771

As you see, Nevruz is nowhere to be found. Nor in this website: http://www.takvim.com/resmi_tatiller.php

And if it was, then I wouldn't understand the point of this group on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=11719987270

edit: I saw this in the website you linked:
1- Azarbaijan
22 March Nevruz Holiday (Official Holiday)
2- Kazakhstan
21 March Nevruz Holiday (Official Holiday)
3- Kyrgyzstan
21 March Nevruz Holiday (Official Holiday)
4- Uzbekistan
21 March Nevruz Holiday (Official Holiday)
5- Turkmenistan
21 March Nevruz Holiday (Official Holiday)
6- Turkey
21 March Nevruz Holiday
7- Norther Cyprus Turkish Republic
21 March Nevruz Holiday


These words are the names of some programmes of the Kurdish channel of TRT, TRT6:
Hewaname
Xeber
Xon U Kerwon
Weşanxane

As you see there isn't such a case any more. Turkey is trying to be a member of EU and is making amendments to bring its standards in accordance with the European standards. You can see this in every field and every part of life. Yes, we have some problems but I can say that even now our standards of democracy and human rights are much better than many countries in the region. At least, we have the will to change and to be better.


Nadi is right, usage of non-Turkish characters is not such a big issue anymore, and it is not difficult to find young people using them, specially in sms and sites like Facebook is not difficult to see words such as sevimli or kardes written as "sewimli" or "qardes". Also, I've seen posters of Kurdish singers using all of those "forbidden" characters, and also newspapers published in Kurdish, not to mention that a new TV Channel was opened with its full program in Kurdish, and there will be also new channels broadcasting in Arabic and Persian as well.

I recommend you watching a documentary called "Crossing the bridge: the sound of Istanbul", in which this topic is addressed as well.

Last year there were lessons of Kurdish in my university, and on the walls there were many posters greeting Nevruz in Kurdish.

Nevertheless, certain usages of Kurdish and q, x, y, are still forbidden, as it can be read in the following article:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10683033.asp?gid=243
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-12-21, 14:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2009-12-21, 14:20

eskandar wrote:
nadi wrote:These words are the names of some programmes of the Kurdish channel of TRT, TRT6:
Hewaname
Xeber
Xon U Kerwon
Weşanxane

As you see there isn't such a case any more. Turkey is trying to be a member of EU and is making amendments to bring its standards in accordance with the European standards. You can see this in every field and every part of life.

I see. I wasn't aware of some of the recent changes in Turkey (and I guess Mert wasn't either ;)). So, I congratulate Turkey for making progress on the Kurdish issue. :)


This is a speech of Erdogan in Turkish which is translated live into Kurdish, and in the end he greets it in Kurdish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN1jBX00ctQ
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby Mert » 2009-12-21, 14:38

nadi wrote:
Mert wrote:
eskandar wrote: Maybe if Turkey treated Kurds like human beings, they wouldn't join groups like the PKK.


As long as Turks don't see Kurdish reality, we'll suffer from this problem more. We choose fighting instead of understanding each other.


Are you sure you are following the recent changes in Turkey, Mert? I have to remind you of the fact that you are talking about a country whose prime minister is speaking Kurdish on its official TV channel. Plus, we are talking about a very recent process which is in progress yet.


Former prime minister and former president Demirel said in 1992 "We recognize Kurdish reality". And then? Nothing. Kurdish deputies were arrested. That Erdoğan spoke Kurdish consists of show. Although the Constitutional Court announced Erdoğan's party AKP was against secularism and regime, it hadn't abolished the party, but Kurdish party was abolished by the same court last week. How democratic is the decision of the court? Since 1990 many Kurdish parties has been abolished, even though most of Kurds vote for them in every election. I don't see truth exists in Turkey. I can't ignore recent advances, yet if there is no truth and sincerity, we'll continue dreaming.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby eskandar » 2009-12-21, 14:42

kalemiye wrote:Wonderful, because it totally contradicts what is written here (they didn't even bother themselves to update it since 2008): http://www.kultur.gov.tr/TR/Genel/BelgeGoster.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFF8AB2E675B78192E8FF57EDA7516DB771

As you see, Nevruz is nowhere to be found. Nor in this website: http://www.takvim.com/resmi_tatiller.php

And if it was, then I wouldn't understand the point of this group on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=11719987270

edit: I saw this in the website you linked:
6- Turkey
21 March Nevruz Holiday
7- Norther Cyprus Turkish Republic
21 March Nevruz Holiday

It seems this is a new policy which began, if I remember correctly, in August 2009. So perhaps the other websites have not yet been updated; it seems the Facebook group you linked is an example of that, since it has been out of use since 2008. In any case, I could be wrong, but I think the most likely explanation is that this is a new policy and not all websites have been updated yet to reflect it. That's interesting that they have apparently instituted the policy in Northern Cypress as well. It would make sense, since the Turkish government wants to promote Nevruz as a national holiday rather than a specifically Kurdish one.

I recommend you watching a documentary called "Crossing the bridge: the sound of Istanbul", in which this topic is addressed as well.

I've seen it. There's some great music in that film! I think that was where I first heard about the wonderful Kurdish singer Aynur Doğan, though I don't really remember anymore.
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Re: مناسبت‌ها (Occasions)

Postby kalemiye » 2009-12-21, 15:59

I couldn't find any youtube video with Aynur's part with English subs :cry:. Anyways, if you have the chance watch the documentary again playing attention to that part ;). I had a Kurdish friend that always used to say that Aynur had to go to Eurovision, She has a really GREAT voice.

It took me ages to find it but in an article in CNNTürk (22.04.2009) it states that the petition for declaring Nevruz an official holiday was declined:

Nevruz Bayramı önergesine ret.

TBMM Genel Kurulunda, CHP, MHP ve DTP'nin, "21 Mart'ın Nevruz Bayramı" olarak resmi tatil ilan edilmesine ilişkin önergeleri reddedildi.


Refusal to the resolution of the Nevruz Holiday

The motion proposed by CHP, MHP and DTP concerning the creation of a Nevruz Holday was rejected in the Turkish National Assembly's General Assembly.


I don't remember it being an Official Holiday back when I was there. Maybe it has changed recently, as you say. I know Nevruz is definitely greeted. If you find any recent article about this issue please let me know, because I couldn't find any :cry:.

In Ankara it was relatively easy to find all the things needed for the haft sin, and there was sümbül all of sudden in every flower shop :). No public celebration is held in Ankara though. But my friends went to Diyarbakir in Nowruz and told me there was a really huge celebration.

edit: I think it is a holiday in certain areas of Turkey, but not nation-wide.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-12-21, 16:08, edited 1 time in total.
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