Short questions

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alijsh
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Re: Short questions

Postby alijsh » 2009-04-18, 17:38

I don't understand your question.

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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-18, 17:45

ا آ

is it correct that both these letters are called alef? What is the normal way to differ them?

pishaapish sepaazgozaaram

Rémy LeBeau

Re: Short questions

Postby Rémy LeBeau » 2009-04-18, 17:48

The long a (aa - آ) is called 'alif madda', and the short a (a - ا) is just called 'alif'. Is that what you wanted to know?

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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-18, 18:06

yes, thanks! :D

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Re: Short questions

Postby alijsh » 2009-04-19, 2:29

camelkebab wrote:ا آ

is it correct that both these letters are called alef? What is the normal way to differ them?

آ is called "â-ye bâkolâh": hat-having â.

Rémy LeBeau wrote:The long a (aa - آ) is called 'alif madda'

Not in Persian.

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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-19, 19:48

آ

so calling it "alefe baakolaah" is wrong?

sorry if stupid question, just want to be sure

i dont find it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perso-Arabic_script

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Re: Short questions

Postby alijsh » 2009-04-20, 3:33

camelkebab wrote:so calling it "alefe baakolaah" is wrong?

No, in case saying "â-ye bâkolâh" confuses you. "â-ye bâkolâh" is the common name. See here.

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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-20, 18:18

Moteshakker am!

Yek soal daaram darbareye kalameye "mohabat"

i know mohabat means "kindness", i wonder if there is any version of this word that means just "kind"

ba taskakore ghabli

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Re: Short questions

Postby eskandar » 2009-04-20, 18:33

"Kind" in Persian is mehrabân (مهربان) which is unrelated to mohabbat (محبت).
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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-21, 4:27

I found a word "mohabat aamiz"

can I say

"shomaa kheyli mohabat aamiz hastid"

does "aamiz" mean anything by itself?

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Re: Short questions

Postby alijsh » 2009-04-21, 5:03

camelkebab wrote:I found a word "mohabat aamiz"

-âmiz is a suffix: mohabbatâmiz: containing/showing affection

camelkebab wrote:can I say

"shomaa kheyli mohabat aamiz hastid"

No. Say: bâmohabbat (بامحبت) or mehrabân (مهربان)

camelkebab wrote:does "aamiz" mean anything by itself?

The present stem of âmixtan (آمیختن): to mix. In fact, English "to mix" and Persian "â-mix-tan" are from the same Indo-European root.

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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-22, 4:24

In kalame chejoori mikhonand:

he sin be ?

what does this mean

bar [he sin be] tasaadof aanja ra peydaa kardam

bar [he sin be] tasaadof = ?


and one more:

...besaazam ke dar moghaabele baaraan moghaavem baashe.

dar moghaabele baaraan = ?

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Re: Short questions

Postby peterlin » 2009-04-22, 6:41

camelkebab wrote:In kalame chejoori mikhonand:

he sin be ?


AFAIK (it's not a part of my active vocabulary):

/hasab/
/bar hasab/ = on the account of

bar [he sin be] tasaadof = ?


accidentally

and one more:

...besaazam ke dar moghaabele baaraan moghaavem baashe.

dar moghaabele baaraan = ?


against rain

in the sentence= I will build so that it'll be rain-proof

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Re: Short questions

Postby eskandar » 2009-04-22, 13:13

peterlin wrote:
camelkebab wrote:In kalame chejoori mikhonand:

he sin be ?

AFAIK (it's not a part of my active vocabulary):

/hasab/
/bar hasab/ = on the account of

bar [he sin be] tasaadof = ?

accidentally

Are you sure about this? I'm assuming we're talking about the word حسب (as I don't think هسب exists). حسب is pronounced /hasb/ (although I think it may also be pronounced /hasab/) and according to Hayyim means "sufficiency; measure, quantity; reckoning, computing." بر حسب (bar hasb-e) means "according to; in accordance with; in proportion to; by way of; in the manner of." I believe you may have been thinking of حساب (hesâb) which does mean account.

I do think that بر حسب تصادف (bar hasb-e tasâdof) has the meaning you suggested, "accidentally" (or "coincidentally; by chance.")
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Re: Short questions

Postby peterlin » 2009-04-22, 13:50

eskandar wrote:
peterlin wrote:[AFAIK (it's not a part of my active vocabulary):

/hasab/
/bar hasab/ = on the account of

Are you sure about this? I'm assuming we're talking about the word حسب (as I don't think هسب exists).


Yup, but it is (mis)spelled هسب sometimes.

حسب is pronounced /hasb/ (although I think it may also be pronounced /hasab/)


I think that "hasb" means "shomâresh" (counting, computing) and "hasab" (written the same way) means "tebq-e" "vafq-e" (on the basis of, according to, in accordance with). I may be wrong. Anyway, "on the account of" was my licentia poetica. The root suggests 'counting' and I was trying to reflect that in my 'translation'.

BTW, using Hayyim is, sometimes, a remedy worse than the disease for me. Its English is dated and sometimes when seeing the provided equivalents I can hardly guess what is the word's real meaning, or more often, usage and stylistics. Plus all those English words are so similar to each other! ("account" is actually something different from "accordance"? Phew! Who knew?) :wink:

Back on the serious side - generally, IMHO, the notions and cultural concepts don't map well between neither Polish-Persian nor English-Persian. When I was making my dictionary I very often felt that I was only approximating the real meaning(s) in a inadequate, clumsy and verbose way.

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Re: Short questions

Postby eskandar » 2009-04-22, 14:08

peterlin wrote:I think that "hasb" means "shomâresh" (counting, computing) and "hasab" (written the same way) means "tebq-e" "vafq-e" (on the basis of, according to, in accordance with). I may be wrong. Anyway, "on the account of" was my licentia poetica. The root suggests 'counting' and I was trying to reflect that in my 'translation'.

Going by Hayyim again, "hasb" has the meaning I cited earlier, whereas "hasab" (spelled identically) means "descent, lineage; also noble descent, nobility; personal merit; quantity, amount, measure; number; proportion; manner, mode." So their meanings are clearly similar and related, though when referring to برحسب Hayyim specifically gives the transcription "bar hasb" and not *"bar hasab."

BTW, using Hayyim is, sometimes, a remedy worse than the disease for me. Its English is dated and sometimes when seeing the provided equivalents I can hardly guess what is the word's real meaning, or more often, usage and stylistics. Plus all those English words are so similar to each other! ("account" is actually something different from "accordance"? Phew! Who knew?) :wink:

I think that because English is my native language, I don't have a problem using Hayyim, as I can easily understand the outmoded style and usually convert it mentally to something more modern-sounding. I haven't found a better Persian-English dictionary than his, though I haven't had a chance to peruse "A Millenium English-Persian Dictionary" (Haghshenas, Samei, and Entekhabi) which I've heard good things about.

Back on the serious side - generally, IMHO, the notions and cultural concepts don't map well between neither Polish-Persian nor English-Persian. When I was making my dictionary I very often felt that I was only approximating the real meaning(s) in a inadequate, clumsy and verbose way.

Fully agreed. While it's surely much better to look these words up in a Persian-Persian dictionary, I am not quite at the level where that's an option for me most of the time, and so I end up consulting Hayyim several times a day (as well as farsi123.com, which is my favorite for English>Persian translations).
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Re: Short questions

Postby peterlin » 2009-04-22, 14:39

eskandar wrote:Going by Hayyim again, "hasb" has the meaning I cited earlier, whereas "hasab" (spelled identically) means "descent, lineage; also noble descent, nobility; personal merit; quantity, amount, measure; number; proportion; manner, mode." So their meanings are clearly similar and related, though when referring to برحسب Hayyim specifically gives the transcription "bar hasb" and not *"bar hasab."


Mibosearch or Dehkhoda + Moin on the issue. Neither is particularly modern.

I think that because English is my native language, I don't have a problem using Hayyim, as I can easily understand the outmoded style and usually convert it mentally to something more modern-sounding.


I was exaggerating a bit, but yes, I do often find myself unsure of what the modern equivalent (Polish or English) would be. But I like it better than Hezare (not that I use any of the two a lot).

All in all, monolingual dictionaries are the thing. I am particularly fond of Najafi's "Farhang-e farsi-ye amiyane". Very useful for colloquial idioms. Otherwise mibosearch combined with googling for context is a good solution.

Fully agreed. While it's surely much better to look these words up in a Persian-Persian dictionary, I am not quite at the level where that's an option for me most of the time


I found that to be more a psychological (as opposed to factual) barreer than anything else. It's not that difficult and the more you do it the easier it gets.
BTW, I can't imagine using English-Polish dictionaries anymore, yet there was a time when I was afraid of going monolingual.

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Re: Short questions

Postby alijsh » 2009-04-22, 15:40

camelkebab wrote:bar [he sin be] tasaadof aanja ra peydaa kardam

It should be pronounced «hasab» but we (mis)pronounce it «hasb» thanks to the ability of Perso-Arabic script in writing vowels 8-) :nope:

As others said, «bar hasb e tasâdof» means «by accident, by chance». We mostly say «tasâdofi» instead, especially in spoken language:

ânjâ râ tasâdofi/ettefâqi/ŝânsi (informal) peydâ kardam.

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Re: Short questions

Postby camelkebab » 2009-04-23, 10:04

what does this mean

akhm too ham raftan

pishaapish moteshakker

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Re: Short questions

Postby alijsh » 2009-04-23, 13:42

axm tu ham raftan

Not exactly but basically: to frown.


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