Urdu Study Group

Moderator: vijayjohn

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-08-13, 14:40

Glosbe sentences with the new words:

اُس نے عورت کو تلاش کرنے پر اصرار کِیا۔

He insisted on finding the woman.

مَیں سگریٹنوشی اور منشیات سے پرہیز کرنے کے باعث بالکل تندرست ہوں۔

I have a healthy body because of abstaining from smoking and drugs.

قارئین کو صحت اور طبّی معاملات میں خود فیصلہ کرنا چاہئے۔

Readers must decide for themselves on health and medical matters.

یہ پیچیدہ معاملات ہیں مگر ہم اس قاری کی صاف گوئی کی قدر کرتے ہیں۔

These are complex issues, and we appreciate this reader’s candor.

اِسکے باوجود، اس ۲۱ ویں صدی میں بھی انسانی معاشرہ بیشمار سماجی طبقات میں بٹا ہوا ہے۔

Yet, even in this 21st century, human society is still divided into numerous social classes.

بہرحال داؤد اس آیت میں ان فتوحات کا ذکر کر رہا ہے جو بنیاسرائیل نے یہوواہ خدا کی مدد سے حاصل کی تھیں۔

In any case, David was alluding to the victories Jehovah gave his people over their enemies.

ایک شام ایک بھائی نے ہمیں ایک لفافہ دیا جس پر ”نیویارک“ لکھا تھا۔

One evening a brother handed us an envelope with “New York” written on it.

وہ کہتی ہیں: ”مجھے اپنے فیصلے پر ذرا پچھتاوا نہیں۔

She says: "I don't [i]regret my decision at all".[/i]

کچھ ڈینٹسٹ بدبودار سانس کے علاج پر توجہ دے رہے ہیں۔

Some dentists are giving increased attention to the treatment of bad breath.

اور ہم استعارہ ، بازاری زبان، خفیہ زبان بہت زیادہ استعمال کرتے ہیں

and we use metaphors and slang and jargon

مزیدبرآں، اُسے احساس ہو گیا تھا کہ شہری زندگی کے تقاضے اُس کی استطاعت سے باہر ہیں۔

Furthermore, he came to realize that the demands of city life were far beyond his capacity to handle successfully.

کیا انکی برداشت رائیگاں ثابت ہوئی ہے؟

Has their endurance been in vain?

اِس کے اگلے ہفتے جب وہ مجھ سے ملی تو اُس نے مجھے اپنا موبائل پکڑا دیا اور کہا: ”چین سے فون ہے، آپ بات کریں۔“

The next week, she handed me her cell phone and said, “You talk to China.”

لہٰذا، اُس کے پرستار ناخوش یا مستقل طور پر مایوس کیسے ہو سکتے ہیں؟

So how could his worshipers be unhappy or persistently pessimistic?

وہ اپنا دل اُنڈیل دیتا اور شدید غم کے اظہار کے ساتھ خدا سے معافی کی بھیک مانگتا ہے۔

He poured out his heart, expressing deep sorrow and begging for God’s forgiveness.

رشوت خوری—اِس وبا کے اسباب

Bribery - the reasons for the epidemic

نہ میں ان سے رزق یعنی کمائی طلب کرتا ہوں اور نہ اس کا طلب گار ہوں کہ وہ مجھے کھانا کھلائیں ۔

I do not ask for any sustenance (i . e . earning) from them, nor do I require that they should feed me.

Now for 'vocabulary tag' (doing the same thing with new words from these sentences):

’خون سے پرہیز کرنے‘ کا حکم مسیحیوں کیلئے کتنا سنجیدہ ہے؟

How important is it for Christians to ‘abstain from blood’?

مگر اس نے صاف گوئی اور احترام کیساتھ حقائق کو اُسکے سامنے پیش کِیا۔

Instead, she frankly but respectfully set out the facts for him.

پُرانے زمانے کی نسبت آجکل رشوت خوری اور نااِنصافی زیادہ پھیل گئی ہے۔

Corruption and injustice are even more widespread today than they were back then.

vijayjohn wrote:
Saim wrote:I don't have the energy to do another translation exercise this week. If we do the Jasoosi Digest text I'd only want to underline the words I don't know, reproduce them here and then look for them in other sentences. To be honest it seems like a pretty long text, I'm not sure how many lines I would be able to get through in a week.

Yeah, it's not that easy. We could just do another ghazal instead, or we could do a Facebook post or something (I'm slightly reluctant about a Facebook post only because I'd have no idea how to look for one and I don't really want to force you to put in the extra effort of finding one). :P Or we could even skip a week. Let me know what you think and/or if you have any ideas, thanks! :)


Maybe we could do a song? :)
Last edited by Saim on 2018-08-13, 15:11, edited 3 times in total.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-13, 14:53

Sure! What do you have in mind? :)

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-08-13, 15:05

vijayjohn wrote:Sure! What do you have in mind? :)


Lately I've been listening to this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEvrFe7GWwQ

Only the second verse and the chorus are in Hindi.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-13, 16:27

Haha, okay, we can do that one! :mrgreen:

EDIT:
eskandar wrote:
Also, I was thinking of maybe opening a new thread for transcribing and/or translating audio/video samples in Hindi and Urdu. I think one of the hardest parts of understanding the spoken language is all the regional variation, but I find that documentaries and movies sometimes are a good source of samples of non-standard speech. They may come with subtitles, but it's still a bit hard to make sense of them sometimes. I thought I'd ask whether y'all think this might be a reasonable idea.

I think it's a great idea, albeit a challenging one. I have enough difficulty understanding standard Hindi/Urdu when spoken quickly, let alone regional accents and dialects.

We can use it for standard Hindi/Urdu samples, too, then. :) EDIT2: And even for things like spoken Shuddh Hindi.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-18, 6:48

I just realized there's a...kind of weird spelling issue in the lyrics at 1:09. :P

Lav bhi hai, Kush bhi hai
Flow yeh Ramayan si hai

I mean, I know Hindi isn't written in Roman script by default and all, but "Love" for "Lav" in this case just seems oddly misleading.

Also, what in the world is faandhi? The subs suggest it means 'branch', but I can't find evidence for that meaning anywhere, and doesn't faandhi mean 'trap' in Punjabi and Sindhi? :?

Anyway, new vocab for me:

گھٹنا - knee
چهلنا - to be peeled
سلنا - to be stitched
چننا - to gather, pick, pluck, glean (etc.)
چھٹا - separate, detached, simple...and change (as in money)?
لکڑا - wood

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-08-18, 8:20

vijayjohn wrote:I just realized there's a...kind of weird spelling issue in the lyrics at 1:09. :P

Lav bhi hai, Kush bhi hai
Flow yeh Ramayan si hai

I mean, I know Hindi isn't written in Roman script by default and all, but "Love" for "Lav" in this case just seems oddly misleading.


I thought he was talking about love and خوشی or something at first. :lol:

Also, what in the world is faandhi? The subs suggest it means 'branch', but I can't find evidence for that meaning anywhere, and doesn't faandhi mean 'trap' in Punjabi and Sindhi? :?


Urdu lists پھاندی as meaning "bundle of bamboo or sugarcane". The Patiala dictionary lists پھاندھی as being an alternative form of پھاندھک in Punjabi, namely "bird catcher, trapper". Where did you hear this Punjabi word?

Maybe it's this Marathi word: फांदी. Divine is from Mumbai after all ("yeh mera Bombay, yeh sab ke zubaan pe!").

vijayjohn wrote:چننا - to gather, pick, pluck, glean (etc.)

That's چُننا and also means to choose. I'm pretty sure the word in the song is چِھننا - be snatched or seized, taken by force.

چھٹا - separate, detached, simple...and change (as in money)?


Oxford lists both the adjectival meaning you have here (separate, detached) and the noun (change, coins).

New words:

अंतरराष्ट्रीय - international (بین الاقوامی)
چھلنا - to be peeled
سلنا - to be stitched
چِھننا - be snatched or seized, taken by force
چُھٹّا - change, small coins

Sentences

یہاں جو زخم ملتے ہیں وہ سلتے ہیں یہیں میرے
"There where I get wounds, they get stitched."

دن میں بار بار پتے چھنتے ہیں
"During the day they keep snatching leaves" (?)

جمعہ کو ٹویٹر پر ٹرینڈز میں '# چُھٹّا_دے_دے_رے_مودی' بھی ٹرینڈز میں شامل رہا ہے۔
"Give us change Modi" was trending on Twitter on Friday.

Can't find anything good for چھلنا.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-19, 4:25

Saim wrote:Urdu lists پھاندی as meaning "bundle of bamboo or sugarcane". The Patiala dictionary lists پھاندھی as being an alternative form of پھاندھک in Punjabi, namely "bird catcher, trapper".

Oh OK.
Where did you hear this Punjabi word?

I found it somewhere in the Guru Granth Sahib or something, I think? Let me check...

Yeah, I think it was in Sikh religious texts or something that I found through a Google search for "faandhi." :P It doesn't seem to be a commonly used word in Hindi.
Maybe it's this Marathi word: फांदी. Divine is from Mumbai after all ("yeh mera Bombay, yeh sab ke zubaan pe!").

Hmm, but does that mean he speaks Marathi well enough to know a word like that? Marathi-speakers are surely in the minority in Mumbai.
That's چُننا and also means to choose. I'm pretty sure the word in the song is چِھننا - be snatched or seized, taken by force.

Oh OK (again :P).
अंतरराष्ट्रीय - international (بین الاقوامی)

I think it's a (partial?) calque off of English. :) In Malayalam, it's [ən̪d̪ərd̪eːˈɕiːja].
Can't find anything good for چھلنا.

How about this? :)

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-08-22, 11:27

Image

"Ask those who won't slaughter today because of fear they themselves will be slaughtered what the value of freedom is."

This is referring to the ban on Ahmadis performing qurbani.

User avatar
eskandar
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2907
Joined: 2006-12-15, 8:27
Real Name: Eskandar
Gender: male

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-08-23, 4:33

I know I said I was gonna give up on BBC Urdu, but this article (from 2011) seems interesting. Anyone want to give it a go? I'll get us started, but I couldn't make much sense of the first sentence.

پاکستان کا قومی ترانہ

ایسا لگتا ہے کہ پاکستان میں جہاں مذہبی حلقے، شدت پسند سمجھے جانے لگے ہیں وہیں خود کو روشن خیال، لبرل اور سیکولر کہنے والے بھی ان سے پیچھے نہیں رہے۔

It seems that in Pakistan, as far as religious circles, extremists have started to be understood :?: those same [people] who call themselves enlightened, liberal, and secular are not behind them :?:

سوال یہ تھا کہ پاکستان کا پہلا قومی ترانہ کس نے لکھا؟ اور کچھ آخر الذکر دوستوں کا اصرار ہے کہ پاکستان کا پہلا قومی ترانہ جگن ناتھ آزاد نے لکھا۔

The question was who wrote Pakistan's first national anthem? And some of the latter friends insist that Jagan Nath Azad wrote Pakistan's first national anthem.

جگن ناتھ آزاد اردو کے نامور دانشور تلوک چند محروم کے فرزند اور خود بھی اہم شاعر اور ناقد تھے۔ اُسی عیسٰی خیل میں پیدا ہوئے تھے جہاں کے ہمارے مقبول گلوکار عطا اللہ ہیں۔ کئی نسلوں سے وہیں رہتے تھے لیکن تقسیم نے انہیں ہندوستان دھکیل دیا اور اب انہیں ہندوستان کے معروف شاعر کہا جاتا ہے۔

Jagan Nath Azad was the son of the famous Urdu scholar Tilok Chand Mahrum and was himself an important poet and critic. He was born in the same Isakhel as our popular singer Attaullah [Khan Esakhelvi]. They had lived there for many generations but partition pushed them into India and now they are called famous poets of India.
Currently away from Unilang.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-24, 3:59

Sure, I'm game for anything! They should write an article on the national anthem of the Maldives, though. It's called "Qaumi Salam." The lyrics are heavily inspired by Urdu poetry and use lots of Perso-Arabic loanwords (just not as much as Pakistan's Qaumi Tarana :P). The format is almost like a ghazal except without any rhymes.

یہ سارا معاملہ ہندوستان کے ایک صحافی لو پوری (Luv Puri) کی ایک رپورٹ سے شروع ہوتا ہے جو انہوں نے 24 جولائی 2004 میں جگن ناتھ آزاد کے انتقال کے ایک ماہ بعد پہلے دہلی سے شائع ہونے والے پندرہ روزہ ’دی ملی گزٹ‘ اور پھر چند ماہ بعد 19جون 2005 کو ہندوستان کے تیسرے بڑے انگریزی اخبار ’دی ہندو‘ میں چھپوائی۔
This whole rigamarole starts with a report by Indian journalist Luv Puri that he had printed first in the fortnightly Milli Gazette published in Delhi on July 24, 2004, one month after Jagan Nath Azad's emigration, and then in The Hindu, India's third-biggest English-language newspaper, a few months later on June 19, 2005.

جگن ناتھ آزاد سے انٹرویو پر مشتمل اس رپورٹ سے یہ تاثر پیدا ہوتا ہے کہ پاکستان کے بانی محمد علی جناح نے تو پاکستان کا قومی ترانہ ایک ہندو شاعر سے لکھوایا تھا۔ لیکن ان کے بعد آنے والوں نے یہ اعزاز کسی مسلمان کو دینے کے لیے اس سارے کام کو ملیا میٹ کر دیا اور اس ترانے کی جگہ حفیظ جالندھری سے ایک نیا ترانہ لکھوا لیا۔
From this report that comprised an interview with Jagan Nath Azad was born the impression that the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, had Pakistan's national anthem written by a Hindu poet. However, in order to give this honor to some Muslim, those who came after him destroyed this whole work and had Hafeez Jalandhari write a new anthem instead of this anthem.
Saim wrote:"Ask those who won't slaughter today because of fear they themselves will be slaughtered what the value of freedom is."

Doesn't it specifically say 'won't slaughter cows (today)' (گاۓ ذبح نہیں کریں گے)?
eskandar wrote:It seems that in Pakistan, as far as religious circles, extremists have started to be understood :?: those same [people] who call themselves enlightened, liberal, and secular are not behind them :?:

I tried translating this myself and came up with: "It seems that in Pakistan, precisely where religious circles and extremism appear to be understood (accepted?), enlightened ideas, liberals, and secularists don't allow themselves (to fall?) behind them"?

New vocab for me (first from Saim's post, then from the article):

قدر - worth
ذبح - slaughter
حلقہ - circle
شدت (shiddat and not shaddat?) - hardness, vehemence, intensity
روشن (can be pronounced raushan as well as roshan?) - enlightened
اصرار (israar and not asraar - pretty sure I'm right on this one) - perseverance (I know you already mentioned this to me earlier in this thread, eskandar bhai, but it's still new to me :P)
آخر الذکر - latter?
کا اصرار ہے - insist(s)?
نامور - famous
دانشور - scholar
فرزند - child
ناقد (naaqid) - critic
گلوکار - singer
نسل - generation
دھکیل دینا - to push
معاملہ - rigamarole :P
عیسٰی خیل - Isakhel
انتقال - migration
شائع ہونا - to be published
پندرہ روزہ - fortnightly?
پر مشتمل ہونا - to comprise
تاثر - impression?
بانی - founder?
اعزاز - honor
ملیا میٹنا - to destroy
کی جگہ - instead of

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-08-25, 11:10

vijayjohn wrote:یہ سارا معاملہ ہندوستان کے ایک صحافی لو پوری (Luv Puri) کی ایک رپورٹ سے شروع ہوتا ہے جو انہوں نے 24 جولائی 2004 میں جگن ناتھ آزاد کے انتقال کے ایک ماہ بعد پہلے دہلی سے شائع ہونے والے پندرہ روزہ ’دی ملی گزٹ‘ اور پھر چند ماہ بعد 19جون 2005 کو ہندوستان کے تیسرے بڑے انگریزی اخبار ’دی ہندو‘ میں چھپوائی۔
This whole rigamarole starts with a report by Indian journalist Luv Puri that he had printed first in the fortnightly Milli Gazette published in Delhi on July 24, 2004, one month after Jagan Nath Azad's emigration, and then in The Hindu, India's third-biggest English-language newspaper, a few months later on June 19, 2005.

انتقال - migration


I'm pretty sure it means death here (this metaphorical meaning, i.e. being "transferred" to the afterlife, is quite common). I checked Wikipedia and the dates check out.
Last edited by Saim on 2018-08-25, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-25, 12:37

Oh OK, thanks! :)

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-08-25, 14:51

اِس سے یہ معنی بھی اخذ کیے گئے کہ جناح تو لبرل، روشن خیال اور سیکولر تھے لیکن حفیظ جالندھری سے ترانہ لکھوانے والے اُن کے اِن تصورات کو دوسرا رنگ دینا چاہتے تھے۔ اس خدشے کا اظہار کئی بلاگز اور مضامین سے کیا گیا جو لو پوری کی انٹرویو رپورٹ پر انحصار کر کے لکھے گئے۔ لو پوری کی رپورٹ اگرچہ جگن ناتھ آزاد کے انتقال کے بعد شائع ہوئی لیکن اس لیے مستند ہے کہ جگن ناتھ آزاد نے اور کئی جگہ ایسے باتیں کیں جن سے انٹرویو کے مندرجات کی تصدیق ہوتی ہے۔


The meaning inferred from this is that Jinnah was a liberal, open-minded, a secularist, but those who got Hafeez Jalandhari to write the anthem wanted to give these ideas a different colour. Some blogs and articles expressed concern, written relying on Luv Puri's interview. Although Luv Puri's interview of Jagan Nath Azad was published after his death, it is true that Jagan Nath Azad said these things in a couple of other places, which confirm the contents of the interview.

اخذ کرنا to deduce, infer, take
روشن خیال enlightened, broad-minded
خدشہ fear, apprehension, danger, doubt
اِنحصار کرنا to rely, depend on
مُستند authentic, certified, reliable
مُندرِج inserted, entered
مندرجات contents?
تصدیق confirmation

بلاگز کو تو ابھی وہ استناد حاصل نہیں ہوا کہ انہیں تحقیق کا حوالہ بنایا جا سکے کیونکہ اب تک بلاگز ایک نوع کی تاثراتی تحریر کی حیثیت رکھتے ہیں لیکن جب یہی بات پرنٹ میڈیا میں شائع ہونے والی خبروں اور تحریروں میں بھی آ جائے تو اس کی حیثیت تبدیل ہو جاتی ہے۔


Blogs did not get that confirmation that the research can be referred to (?) because so far blogs have had the status of a form of impression-based writing. However, when this is also published in the news and texts of print media this status can change.

اِستناد confirmation, proof
تاَثّر impression, feeling

[God, Urdu journalistic prose destroys me. I can know every word in a paragraph and still be confused as to the exact meaning. There are so many collocations and common metaphors that I don't find described in any of the online dictionaries I've used, and the fact that words seem to have sets of meanings different to European languages makes it hard to guess which meaning is being used. Like, what on Earth does "اِن تصورات کو دوسرا رنگ دینا" mean? I'm beginning to appreciate the clear Europeanness of Hungarian and even Basque texts now -- despite the massively different syntax, many Basque expressions and collocations, as well as the set of meanings of formal terms, are the same as in Spanish or other European languages.]

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-08-27, 23:14

پاکستان کے روشن خیال، لبرل اور سیکولر لوگوں کو جنرل ضیاء الحق کے دور سے جن حالات اور واقعات سے دوچار ہونا پڑ رہا ہے انہوں نے شاید انہیں ضرورت سے زیادہ جلدباز اور حساس بنا دیا ہے اور ان میں سے کچھ کا حال رسّی سے بھی ڈرنے والوں کا سا ہو گیا ہے ۔ ان کی اسی جلد بازی نے یہ خدشہ پیدا کیا ہے کہ مستقبل میں ان کی وجہ سے غلط فہمی پیدا ہو سکتی ہے اور یہی وہ تشویش ہے جس نے عقیل عباس جعفری کو قومی ترانے کے بارے تحقیق کرنے پر آمادہ کیا۔ اس بارے میں ان کی کتاب ’پاکستان کا قومی ترانہ: کیا ہے حقیقت؟ کیا ہے فسانہ؟‘ گزشتہ سال اکتوبر میں شائع ہوئی۔
Perhaps the enlightened, liberal, and secular people of Pakistan had to have the interview done too hastily and shrewdly, under conditions and realities far away from Zia ul-Haq, and some of them have even begun to fear the rope (for hanging?). :?: This same haste of theirs gave birth to the fear that a misunderstanding could arise from his presence in the future, and this is the anxiety that prepared Aqeel Abbas Jafari to investigate the national anthem. His book about this, Pakistan's National Anthem: What is Myth? What is Fact? was published in October of last year.

And from the caption to the first picture :P
حفیظ جالندھری کا قومی ترانہ سات سو سے زائد قومی ترانوں میں سے منتخب کیا گیا اور ان کا ترانہ نہ صرف ترانے کے بلکہ ترانے کی دھن کے بھی تمام تقاضوں کو پورا کرتا تھا۔
More than 700 national anthem copies were made of Hafeez Jalandhari's National Anthem, and his anthem made complete demands not only for the anthem but also for the anthem's complete tune. :?:

I'm struggling with this part of the article. Wtf did I just read
Saim wrote:God, Urdu journalistic prose destroys me. I can know every word in a paragraph and still be confused as to the exact meaning. There are so many collocations and common metaphors that I don't find described in any of the online dictionaries I've used, and the fact that words seem to have sets of meanings different to European languages makes it hard to guess which meaning is being used. Like, what on Earth does "اِن تصورات کو دوسرا رنگ دینا" mean?

I think I'm finding that same problem with Persian, though, and it seems now at least, I have the same problem for Urdu, too! For instance, I didn't know until eskandar bhai pointed it out to me that in Persian, your fate is written on your head. I'm confused by the example, though; doesn't it mean what you said it means, and isn't it the same metaphor as in English? :hmm:

Anyway, in addition to the words you listed (and the ones I already listed), all of these were new to me:

تصور - idea (didn't really know this particular meaning)
اظہار - manifestation, declaration (know a neat Canadian-Indian ghazal with this word but totally forgot what it meant!)
مضمون - composition, article, essay, address (as in a speech? I only knew this as 'subject')
اگرچه (last vowel is [e], not [a]) - although
جلدباز - quick(ness), haste/hasty
حساس hassaas - shrewd
دوچار ہونا - to have an interview (didn't even realize this was a term until I started struggling over the first sentence in this post)
تشویش - anxiety
تحقیق - investigation
آمادہ کرنا - to get ready
رسّی - rope (took me a while to figure out the second consonant was seen + shadda rather than sheen!)
زائد - more (than)
منتخب - extract, selection
تمام - complete
تقاضا - demand?

Also had to look up خدشہ xudshah, اِنحصار inhisaar, and مُستند mustanad to figure out how those are pronounced.

User avatar
eskandar
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2907
Joined: 2006-12-15, 8:27
Real Name: Eskandar
Gender: male

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-08-30, 20:27

Saim wrote:
بلاگز کو تو ابھی وہ استناد حاصل نہیں ہوا کہ انہیں تحقیق کا حوالہ بنایا جا سکے کیونکہ اب تک بلاگز ایک نوع کی تاثراتی تحریر کی حیثیت رکھتے ہیں لیکن جب یہی بات پرنٹ میڈیا میں شائع ہونے والی خبروں اور تحریروں میں بھی آ جائے تو اس کی حیثیت تبدیل ہو جاتی ہے۔


Blogs did not get that confirmation that the research can be referred to (?) because so far blogs have had the status of a form of impression-based writing. However, when this is also published in the news and texts of print media this status can change.

Maybe "blogs still have not received that kind of confirmation that would make them a reference for research because so far blogs have had the status of a kind of impressionistic writing" ?

[God, Urdu journalistic prose destroys me. I can know every word in a paragraph and still be confused as to the exact meaning. There are so many collocations and common metaphors that I don't find described in any of the online dictionaries I've used, and the fact that words seem to have sets of meanings different to European languages makes it hard to guess which meaning is being used. Like, what on Earth does "اِن تصورات کو دوسرا رنگ دینا" mean?

And this is why reading Urdu is such a pleasure for me - so much of its collocations, metaphors, expressions, etc. are shared with Persian (which also uses "to give X another color" to mean "to change X"). Of course, as you can see from my participation in this thread, there's stuff that throws me for a loop, too!

vijayjohn wrote:پاکستان کے روشن خیال، لبرل اور سیکولر لوگوں کو جنرل ضیاء الحق کے دور سے جن حالات اور واقعات سے دوچار ہونا پڑ رہا ہے انہوں نے شاید انہیں ضرورت سے زیادہ جلدباز اور حساس بنا دیا ہے اور ان میں سے کچھ کا حال رسّی سے بھی ڈرنے والوں کا سا ہو گیا ہے ۔ ان کی اسی جلد بازی نے یہ خدشہ پیدا کیا ہے کہ مستقبل میں ان کی وجہ سے غلط فہمی پیدا ہو سکتی ہے اور یہی وہ تشویش ہے جس نے عقیل عباس جعفری کو قومی ترانے کے بارے تحقیق کرنے پر آمادہ کیا۔
Perhaps the enlightened, liberal, and secular people of Pakistan had to have the interview done too hastily and shrewdly, under conditions and realities far away from Zia ul-Haq, and some of them have even begun to fear the rope (for hanging?). :?: This same haste of theirs gave birth to the fear that a misunderstanding could arise because of them in the future, and this is the anxiety that prepared Aqeel Abbas Jafari to investigate the national anthem.


کی وجہ سے means "because of"

حفیظ جالندھری کا قومی ترانہ سات سو سے زائد قومی ترانوں میں سے منتخب کیا گیا اور ان کا ترانہ نہ صرف ترانے کے بلکہ ترانے کی دھن کے بھی تمام تقاضوں کو پورا کرتا تھا۔
More than 700 national anthem copies were made of Hafeez Jalandhari's National Anthem, and his anthem made complete demands not only for the anthem but also for the anthem's complete tune. :?:

Hafeez Jalandhari's national anthem was chosen from among over 700 national anthems, and his anthem fulfilled demands not only for the anthem [lyrics] but for the anthem's tune as well.
I was able to find دھن dhun as "tune, melody" through Googling but I can't figure out why this meaning isn't recorded in Platts!

دوچار ہونا - to have an interview (didn't even realize this was a term until I started struggling over the first sentence in this post)

Hmm, what's your source for this? I thought it was just a typo for دچار which has nothing to do with interviews.

منتخب - extract, selection

Also "chosen" or "selected" (cf. انتخاب).


Also had to look up خدشہ xudshah

It's xadsha.
Currently away from Unilang.

User avatar
eskandar
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2907
Joined: 2006-12-15, 8:27
Real Name: Eskandar
Gender: male

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-08-30, 20:46

عقیل عباس جعفری اگرچہ باقاعدہ محقق نہیں ہیں لیکن انہوں نے تحقیق پر مبنی ایسا اور اتنا کام کیا ہے کہ ان کی تحقیق کو ایک ایسا مقام حاصل ہو گیا ہے جو کسی بھی باقاعدہ محقق کے کام کو حاصل ہو سکتا ہے۔

Although Abbas Aqeel Jafari is not a formal researcher, he has done so much on the basis of research that his research has reached a status that no formal researcher's work has achieved.
Currently away from Unilang.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-09-01, 5:19

Thanks for all your help, eskandar bhai! And Saim bhai, maybe it's just my brain that's gotten so used to that expression (giving ideas a new color) that I thought it existed in English, too. :o

انہوں نے کتاب میں جو تفصیلات فراہم کی ہیں ان کے مطابق اس دوسرے احساس کی ابتدا مہرین ایف علی کے ایک مضمون سے ہوتی ہے جو پاکستان کے انگریزی روزنامہ ڈان میں 13 اگست 2006 کو A Tune to Die For کے عنوان سے شائع ہوا۔ اس میں انہوں نے جگن ناتھ کے اس بیان کو من و عن قبول کر لیا کہ انہوں نے بانیِ پاکستان کے کہنے پر پاکستان کا پہلا قومی ترانہ 14 اگست 1947 تک تحریر کر لیا، جسے انہوں نے ’چند گھنٹے میں منظور کر لیا۔ اسے پہلی مرتبہ ریڈیو پاکستان کراچی سے گایا گیا‘۔

In accordance with the details that he collected in the book, the beginning of this other feeling :?: was an article by Mehreen F. Ali(?), which was published in the Pakistani English newspaper Dawn on August 13, 2006 under the title "A Tune to Die For." In it, he accepted Jagan Nath's statement word for word that he wrote the first national anthem of Pakistan by order of the Founder of Pakistan by August 14, 1947, which he "accepted within a few hours. It was first sung by Radio Pakistan Karachi."
eskandar wrote:Of course, as you can see from my participation in this thread, there's stuff that throws me for a loop, too!

At which point I try to see whether maybe I can help figure it out, however desperately. :P I guess sometimes I hope living with my parents my whole life as a South Asian may have given me a perspective that could help clarify some things sometimes. Idk whether that makes sense.
I was able to find دھن dhun as "tune, melody" through Googling but I can't figure out why this meaning isn't recorded in Platts!

It is. It's just listed under دهني instead.

I've heard this word in a number of songs, at least, including this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKVI7GMz6a0
میں بمبئی کا بابو، نام میرا انجانا
!انگلش دھن میں گاؤں میں ہندوستانی گانا
دوچار ہونا - to have an interview (didn't even realize this was a term until I started struggling over the first sentence in this post)

Hmm, what's your source for this? I thought it was just a typo for دچار which has nothing to do with interviews.

Platts again! Try searching here for du-ćār.
a status that no formal researcher's work has achieved

How about "such a status as any formal researcher's work could achieve"?

New vocab for me (in addition to what eskandar already pointed out and what I've already listed here, of course):

باقاعدہ - formal?
محقق - researcher?
مبنی mabni - based
مقام - status
حاصل ہو جانا - to acquire, reach
تفصيل (pl. تفصیلات) - detail
فراہم کرنا - to collect
مطابق - in accordance (with)
احساس - feeling (I know, I really didn't know this word)
ابتدا - beginning
عنوان unwān - title
من و عن - to the letter
تحریر کرنا - to write
مرتبہ martaba - time (occurrence)

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-10-03, 7:14

اس بات کو ظہیر قدوائی نے اپنی ویب سائٹ وِنڈ ملز پر اس دعوے کے ساتھ آگے بڑھایا کہ انہیں ریڈیو پاکستان سے یہ ترانہ سنا جانا یاد ہے۔


ظہیر supporter [here it's a name, but I'm leaving this here since I already looked it up]
دعویٰ accusation, claim, assertion (recently I saw this word in Turkish: dava - lawsuit)

Zaheer Qidwai promoted this idea on his website "Windmills" with the assertion that he remembers hearing this anthem on Radio Pakistan.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 24502
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-10-07, 4:11

ان کے بعد عادل انجم نے 5 جون 2009 کو اپنی ویب سائٹ پاکستانیت ڈاٹ کام پر ایک مفصل بلاگ تحریر کیا جس میں تمام باتوں کو تفصیلاً دہراتے ہوئے جگن ناتھ آزاد کی ایک ریکارڈنگ بھی شامل کر دی۔ جس سے لو پوری کے انٹرویو کی توثیق ہوتی ہے۔

After him, on June 5, 2009, Adil Anjam :?: wrote a detailed blog (post?) where he even included a recording of Jagan Nath Azad on his website pakistanyit.com :?: while recounting the exact words in detail, which confirms Luv Puri's interview.

Caption below the second picture:

جگن ناتھ آزاد کا اصرار تھا کہ ترانہ ان سے لکھوایا گیا اور نشر بھی ہوا لیکن ریڈیو پاکستان کے ریکارڈ یا کسی اور دستاویز سے اس کا ثبوت نہیں ملتا۔

Jagan Nath Azad had stated that he was made to write the national anthem and was even published, but no confirmation of this is to be found from the records of Radio Pakistan or any other document.

New vocab for me:

مفصل mufassal - explained clearly or in detail
تحریر کرنا - to write
تفصیلاً - in detail
دہرانا - to repeat
توثیق - confirmation
نشر - spreading, publishing
دستاویز - document

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5436
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Urdu Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-10-14, 17:09

جولائی اگست 2009 میں پاکستانی ائر لائن پی آئی اے کے جریدے پرواز میں خوشبو عزیز کے نام اور پرائیڈ آف پاکستان کے عنوان سے ایک مضمون شائع کیا گیا جس میں لو پوری سے عادل انجم تک کی تمام باتوں کو دہرا دیا گیا۔

In July-August 2009 in Pakistani airline PIA's magazine Parwaaz an article was published under the name [author] "Khushboo Azeez" and with the title of "Pride of Pakistan", in which all these things, from Lo Puri to Adil Anjum, were repeated.

جریدہ newspaper (sad I didn't remember Arabic جريدة well enough to recognise this word...)
پرواز flight
دہرانا to repeat (دہرا double)

جعفری کے مطابق ’ممتاز صحافی بینا سرور نے اسی مضمون کو بنیاد بناتے ہوئے 19 اور 22 ستمبر 2009 کو روزنامہ ڈان اور دی ہندو میں نہ صرف مضمون لکھے بلکہ تفصیلی بلاگ بھی لکھے جن میں جگن ناتھ آزاد کے ترانے کو پاکستان کا پہلا قومی ترانہ قرار دینے پر زور قلم صرف کر دیا۔‘

According to Jafari "distinguished journalist Baniya Suroor, [having been made the basis of the article?], not only wrote articles on the 19th and 22nd of September 2009 in Roznamah Dan and The Hindu, but also detailed blogs in which he wrote for Jang Naath's anthem being determined as Pakistan's first national anthem.

زورِ قلم the power of writing


Return to “Hindi/Urdu (हिन्दी/اُردو)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest