How close they are?

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-28, 23:22

Thanks, and this is my attempt on writing this in Devangari script. I hope someone can approve:

मेरे क़ल्ब का है ये कहना
मुझे आप के पास ये रहना
मेरे मंज़िल ए राह है मदीना
मेरे रूह को है पाकीज़ा होना

:D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-29, 3:45

And can someone listen to my pronunciation, and correct the mistakes? :D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0vveuLhAEIE
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-29, 21:21

Sounds pretty good to me. I know you had asked earlier about a 'neutral' sounding pronunciation between Hindi and Urdu, but I'd really go with [qalb] here in the first line (your pronunciation is more [kalb]). Otherwise I didn't notice any mistakes per se! Perhaps a native speaker would be able to give better input, but it sounds fine to my ears.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-30, 10:15

Shukriya! :)
So I'll go with the the "q" next time. :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-08-03, 12:45

The reason I always ask for lyrics and pronunciation is because I like to record multilingual Nasheeds sometimes in free time. It's just a hobby, and they're not even good quality:

https://soundcloud.com/allahov_rob/ilna4nesgvqx

https://soundcloud.com/allahov_rob/2ukthrekccrk

https://soundcloud.com/allahov_rob/m7bx7yqvjb3s

(This last one is the oldest, notice how my pronunciation is the worst...)

:)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-16, 4:04

cHr0mChIk wrote:So, it's pretty much the same situation as with Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, etc.

I think one crucial difference between that and Hindi/Urdu is that even if the standards for Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, etc. don't match up very well with how people actually speak, at least they are based to some extent on regional differences (however minor) that existed even before the breakup of Yugoslavia. For example, unless I'm mistaken, Serbians tend to call a notebook sveska whereas Croatians are more likely to say bilježnica and Bosnians would say teka. There is nothing like this in Hindi and Urdu. As I understand it, the modern standards for both Hindi and Urdu are based on the dialect of Lucknow and have little or nothing to do with existing dialect variation. Shuddh Hindi in particular is probably unintelligible to most native speakers of Hindi, although it's pretty easy for South Indians to understand. :lol:
eskandar wrote:I read Urdu fluently and can read anything available in the language, from poetry to novels to academic writing to newspapers, but if you transliterated a Hindi newspaper for me, I would still have to look up the definitions of so many words that it would still be impossible for me to understand.

I kind of wonder whether this might also have something to do with the difference between Indian newspapers and newspapers in the West. I remember finding that newspapers in Malayalam and English at least are not necessarily written in such a way that the reader can clearly understand from reading them what is actually going on and that Indian journalism is often more about the writer showing off his highbrow vocabulary, whereas my understanding is that Western newspapers are supposed to try to achieve this. I'm not sure to what extent Hindi newspapers are like this, but if they are, then I wouldn't even expect literate native speakers of Hindi to understand what their newspapers were saying.
cHr0mChIk wrote:And, the Devangari script, this is my attempt:

क़ल्ब-ए-आशिक़ धड़क उठा इक दम,
जब छुछिड़ा तज़किरा मदीने का
आँख से अश्क होगए हो गए जारी,
जब चला क़ाफ़िला मदीने का

I've tried to make a few corrections above.
eskandar wrote:Most urban and/or educated Hindi-speakers will properly pronounce [z] and [sh], perhaps fewer pronounce a proper [x] though I'd say it's not so rare, and [q] seems rare nowadays among Hindi speakers - in my opinion anyway - whereas everyone can pronounce [f] just fine.

And then you get complications like my sister-in-law, whose mom is the most educated of the two parents. Both her parents come from nearby towns whose names have [z] in them, but she pronounces one of them (I think her mom's hometown) with [z] and the other (presumably her dad's) with [d͡ʒ] instead, because she just never knew that the other town's name had a [z] in it, too (at least until I told her :lol:).
My own theory is that [z] and [sh] are maintained because they are also present in English (often the Hindi speakers who do not, or cannot, pronounce these sounds also have little or no knowledge of English) whereas since [q] and [x] are not present in Indian English they have been abandoned.

Mine is that [f], [z], and [ʃ] all occur in a variety of languages spoken both next to the Hindi belt and within it, and these are pretty common sounds cross-linguistically anyway. Bengali has both [f] and [ʃ]; some speakers of Gujarati have one or both of these sounds; Maithili has [ʃ] in free variation with [ s ]; Kumauni, most West Pahari languages, and to a lesser extent Gujarati and Marathi have [ s ] contrasting with [ʃ] (in Gujarati, this is subject to speaker variation, and in Marathi, there are only a few minimal pairs to establish this); a number of Dardic languages contrast both of those and [z]; and Marathi has [z] in free variation with [dz].
If we're going for IPA, I'd say it should be more like:

/qəlbɛ: ɑːʃɪq d̪ʱəɽək ʊt̪ʱɑː ɪk d̪əm/
/d͡ʒəb t͡ʃʰiɽɑː t̪azkirɑ məd̪iːnɛː kɑː/
/ɑːnkʰ sɛː əʃk hoː gəjæː d͡ʒɑːriː/
/d͡ʒəb t͡ʃəlɑː qɑːfilɑ məd̪iːnɛː kɑː/

If Vijay notices this thread he might be able to provide something even more accurate.

Here's my own attempt at an IPA transcription:
[ˈqəlbe ˈaʃɪq d̪ʱəˈɽək ʊˈʈʱa ɪk d̪əm
d͡ʒəb t͡ʃʰɪˈɽa t̪azkɪˈɾa məˈd̪ine ka
ãkʰ se əʃk ho gəˈje ˈd͡ʒaɾi
d͡ʒəb t͡ʃəˈla ˈqafɪla məˈd̪ine ka]
cHr0mChIk wrote:Thanks, and this is my attempt on writing this in Devangari script. I hope someone can approve:

मेरे क़ल्ब का है ये यह कहना
मुझे आप के पास ये यह रहना
मेरे मंज़िल--राह है मदीना
मेरे रूह को है पाकीज़ा होना

:D

Fixed a few mistakes again :)
The reason I always ask for lyrics and pronunciation is because I like to record multilingual Nasheeds sometimes in free time.

Wow, that's cool! I don't think I've ever heard Nasheeds before, but I enjoyed listening to your first one. You have a great voice! :D How come the Turkish one has all these [ɹ]s in it, though? I thought Turkish had [ɾ] or maybe [r], but not [ɹ]. :hmm:
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2015-08-16, 14:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-08-16, 6:42

Wow, thank you for all your replies, mate.

Thank you very much. :)

Now, as for the Turkish "r", I found this text on Wikipedia:
Something between /ɹ/ and /ɾ/ but more close to /ɾ/; a fricative r. At the beginning and at the end of a word, this one always occurs. 2 – /ɾ/, like Italian madre, but less stressed and softer. 3 – Occasionally, /ɹ/, the sound of an American or English r, is used.


It actually varies depending on the region and also gender. It appears that men would often pronounce it more like "r", and women like "ɹ" actually :lol:
But most of the time, it's indeed something between...

Pronunciation of it varies a lot, and native speakers often don't even realize threse differences and claim their " 'r' is just like Italian 'r' "... :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-16, 13:58

Oh OK. Yeah, I've heard [ɹ] even in Hindi/Urdu word-finally in songs sometimes, so it's not that surprising. :)

And no problem!

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-08-16, 14:33

vijayjohn wrote:
eskandar wrote:Most urban and/or educated Hindi-speakers will properly pronounce [z] and [sh] [ʃ] ...

Seems a bit overly pedantic to "correct" this... :ohwell: I was giving transcriptions (and indicating phonemes) here in romanized Urdu, not IPA, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-16, 14:35

eskandar wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
eskandar wrote:Most urban and/or educated Hindi-speakers will properly pronounce [z] and [sh] [ʃ] ...

Seems a bit overly pedantic to "correct" this... :ohwell: I was giving transcriptions (and indicating phonemes) here in romanized Urdu, not IPA, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Oh OK. I thought it was supposed to be IPA. Sorry about that. Fixed now. :lol:

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-16, 23:36

vijayjohn wrote:Oh OK. Yeah, I've heard [ɹ] even in Hindi/Urdu word-finally in songs sometimes, so it's not that surprising. :)
And Arabic too. Listen to some tajwid recitations.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-17, 2:57

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Oh OK. Yeah, I've heard [ɹ] even in Hindi/Urdu word-finally in songs sometimes, so it's not that surprising. :)
And Arabic too. Listen to some tajwid recitations.

OK. Yeah, I haven't heard too many. In the only ones I've ever listened to, they pronounced it as [ʁ].

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-17, 3:35

vijayjohn wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Oh OK. Yeah, I've heard [ɹ] even in Hindi/Urdu word-finally in songs sometimes, so it's not that surprising. :)
And Arabic too. Listen to some tajwid recitations.

OK. Yeah, I haven't heard too many. In the only ones I've ever listened to, they pronounced it as [ʁ].
They did? Wouldn't that just sound like <غ>?

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-17, 3:38

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Oh OK. Yeah, I've heard [ɹ] even in Hindi/Urdu word-finally in songs sometimes, so it's not that surprising. :)
And Arabic too. Listen to some tajwid recitations.

OK. Yeah, I haven't heard too many. In the only ones I've ever listened to, they pronounced it as [ʁ].
They did?

Yep! I can show you if you'd like. ;)
Wouldn't that just sound like <غ>?

Nope! :lol: غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think. :)

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-08-17, 16:48

vijayjohn wrote:Oh OK. I thought it was supposed to be IPA. Sorry about that. Fixed now. :lol:

No worries! :)

vijayjohn wrote:Yep! I can show you if you'd like. ;)

Please do!
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-17, 17:14

eskandar wrote:Please do!

Okay, apparently my brain managed to make that up somehow. :para: (I was thinking of the recordings listed under "recitation" here, actually). Maybe I shouldn't have gone off of the impression I got of those recordings when I was a teenager. :oops: :lol:

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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-08-17, 17:21

I believe that in Arabic, it is supposed to be:
ر = /ɾ/ and غ = /ɣ/ :)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-18, 0:32

Yeah, that's more like it. :lol:

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-18, 19:42

vijayjohn wrote:Nope! :lol: غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think. :)
It does? Huh?
I believe that in Arabic, it is supposed to be:
ر = /ɾ/ and غ = /ɣ/ :)
Yes, but often you see uvular fricatives transcribed as velar and vice versa. It's confusing.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-19, 4:06

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Nope! :lol: غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think. :)
It does? Huh?

Well, at least to me it does. And whenever I pronounce it that way when talking to native speakers of Arabic, Persian, or Urdu, they say my pronunciation is oh so great and other foreigners don't know how to pronounce ghain, although I'm sure you could argue without much trouble that that's not really evidence of anything...:P

I learned it that way from my brother, actually, who told me it was pronounced the way gr would be pronounced by French people speaking French.


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