How close they are?

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-11, 1:03

قلبِ عاشق دھڑک اُٹھا اِک دم، جب چھڑا تذکرہ مدینے کا
آنکھ سے اشک ہوگئے جاری، جب چلا قافلہ مدینے کا

Can't help you with the Devanagari, though, sorry. As for pronunciation, I'm sure you've already listened to the song this comes from; try your best to imitate that. If you're going for Urdu pronunciation, you need to pronounce the ق as [q] (like in Arabic) and not as [k]. Some of the vowels are off, and you need to get the aspirated and retroflex consonants right. Despite all that, it's still pretty understandable (though it probably helped that I recognized the lyrics).
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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-12, 0:45

Thank you. I hope I understood it well. Here's my second attempt (I hope the accent doesn't sound silly, I may have overpronounced some sounds):

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1KaAffOyLL0

As for the "Q", If I want the Hindi pronunciation, should I pronounce it as "K"? What else sounds should I pronounce differently depending is it Urdu or Hindi?

And, the Devangari script, this is my attempt:

क़ल्ब आशिक़ धड़क उठा इक दम,
जब छुड़ा तज़किरा मदीने का
आँख से अश्क होगए जारी,
जब चला क़ाफ़िला मदीने का
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby Michael » 2015-07-12, 4:31

cHr0mChIk wrote:If I understood well, Urdu is practically Hindi filled with Perso-Arabic loanwords and script. Pretty much the same relation Serbian and Bosnian have.

If you want to get technical, Hindi is Urdu with all the Perso-Arabic and even certain indigenous Prakritic words replaced by awkward shuddh creations. Hindustani/Urdu was originally a secular language, spoken by Hindu and Muslim alike. The Devanagari script was forced upon most portions of Hindustani-speaking India after independence because of the rise to power of the Hindu nationalists.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-12, 6:41

cHr0mChIk wrote:Thank you. I hope I understood it well. Here's my second attempt (I hope the accent doesn't sound silly, I may have overpronounced some sounds):

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1KaAffOyLL0

As for the "Q", If I want the Hindi pronunciation, should I pronounce it as "K"? What else sounds should I pronounce differently depending is it Urdu or Hindi?
It's sounding better! Again this depends on how we define "Hindi" and "Urdu". Some Hindi speakers maintain the [q] and other distinctive "Urdu" sounds in their speech. It sounds very refined in Hindi (though some could find it pedantic) and it used to be the standard for good pronunciation in Bollywood films, though that is sadly fading away. The other sounds that can be different vary depending on geography (rural/urban divide), class, education, etc. Technically the sounds [q], [z], [x], [f] and sometimes [sh] are from Persian loanwords and therefore identified by some Hindu nationalists as being "foreign" to Hindi. They can be replaced by their "Hindi" equivalents [k], [j], [kh], [ph], and [s]. However all of these "foreign" sounds do not vary equally. Most urban and/or educated Hindi-speakers will properly pronounce [z] and [sh], perhaps fewer pronounce a proper [x] though I'd say it's not so rare, and [q] seems rare nowadays among Hindi speakers - in my opinion anyway - whereas everyone can pronounce [f] just fine. My own theory is that [z] and [sh] are maintained because they are also present in English (often the Hindi speakers who do not, or cannot, pronounce these sounds also have little or no knowledge of English) whereas since [q] and [x] are not present in Indian English they have been abandoned. [f] is the most unusual of this bunch because while it is technically a "foreign" sound, it has come to replace the "indigenous" [ph] for many rural and/or uneducated Hindi speakers, so that phuul "flower" is pronounced as fuul, for example, by the same people who would pronounce zindagi "life" as jindagi.

All of that is to say, you'll have to tailor your Hindi pronunciation to how you want to sound: proper and refined, average middle-class educated, or rural. I would say that if we take Urdu pronunciation as our starting point, here are the changes you'd make for each style in Hindi:
proper and refined- keep everything the same as Urdu
average middle-class educated- change [q] to [k] and [x] to [kh], keep everything else the same
rural- [q] > [k], [x] to [kh], [z] > [j], [sh] > [s], [ph] > [f]
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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-12, 14:42

So, if I understood, if I want to pronounce "fully" Urdu, I should pronounce it like this:

/qalbɪ ɑɑːʃiq dʱaɽak ʊʈʱɑː ɪk d̪am/
/d͡ʒab t͡ʃʰuɽɑː t̪azkira mad̪iːnɛː kɑː/
/aːnkʰ sɛː ɑːʃk hoːgiːɛː d͡ʒɑːriː/
/d͡ʒab t͡ʃalɑː qɑːfila mad̪iːnɛː kɑː/



But if I want it "fully" Hindi, I should do it like this:

/kalbɪ ɑɑːsikə dʱaɽakə ʊʈʱɑː ɪkə d̪amə/
/d͡ʒabə t͡ʃʰuɽɑː t̪aʒəkira mad̪iːnɛː kɑː/
/aːnkʰə sɛː ɑːskə kʱoːgiːɛː d͡ʒɑːriː/
/d͡ʒabə t͡ʃalɑː kɑːpʱila mad̪iːnɛː kɑː/


However, I think I'll do (and stick with) the "average middle-class educated Hindi" pronunciation. :)
([q] to [k] and [x] to [kh], and everything else like the upper one)
Thanks :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-12, 17:45

If we're going for IPA, I'd say it should be more like:

/qəlbɛ: ɑːʃɪq d̪ʱəɽək ʊt̪ʱɑː ɪk d̪əm/
/d͡ʒəb t͡ʃʰiɽɑː t̪azkirɑ məd̪iːnɛː kɑː/
/ɑːnkʰ sɛː əʃk hoː gəjæː d͡ʒɑːriː/
/d͡ʒəb t͡ʃəlɑː qɑːfilɑ məd̪iːnɛː kɑː/

If Vijay notices this thread he might be able to provide something even more accurate.

As for the Hindi transcription, I don't think those extra schwas are ever pronounced for something like this (where the lyrics are "ordinary Hindi" or "Hindustani" or "Urdu" and not "shuddh" super-Sanskritized Hindi. Someone going for hardcore "pure" ("shuddh") Hindi would much sooner replace all those "foreign" words with Sanskritic vocabulary than pronounce it that way.

Although this is a Muslim religious song, it would not at all be out of place in a mainstream Bollywood film, where you would hear either the average middle-class Hindi pronunciation, or very likely, a proper Urdu pronunciation - though it's on the wane, it's still heard in many contemporary Bollywood films, especially in songs like this one.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby Saim » 2015-07-16, 20:15

eskandar wrote:if you took a Serbian newspaper and transliterated it into the Latin script without changing any of the words, the average Bosnian or Croatian should be able to read and understand it just fine. (Please tell me if that's not the case - I haven't studied these languages and am only going by what I've heard about them).


That is true but that's not the only thing - Latin is also a standard script for Serbian. Newspapers and government signs are mostly in Cyrillic, but there are many books and private signs (stores and businesses and so on) written in Latin, and on the internet Latin is clearly dominant.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-07-17, 3:30

Even though a Hindi newspaper would be impossible to understand for an Urdu speaker (assuming they could read Devanagari) would a popular novel be understandable?

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Re: How close they are?

Postby Meera » 2015-07-17, 3:55

It really depends on the novel and the writting style used. A Hindi writer could write a novel full of Persian-ized/Urdu words or one with highly sanskritic words. Although some "Urdu" novels are quite popular in India.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-07-17, 4:35

Meera wrote:It really depends on the novel and the writting style used. A Hindi writer could write a novel full of Persian-ized/Urdu words or one with highly sanskritic words. Although some "Urdu" novels are quite popular in India.
Of course, but would the average novel be readable? Or what about tabloids? They're geared to a popular audience.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby Meera » 2015-07-17, 4:49

mōdgethanc wrote:
Meera wrote:It really depends on the novel and the writting style used. A Hindi writer could write a novel full of Persian-ized/Urdu words or one with highly sanskritic words. Although some "Urdu" novels are quite popular in India.
Of course, but would the average novel be readable? Or what about tabloids? They're geared to a popular audience.


I think so. Tabloids are a definite yes, when I'm reading film news in Hindi/Urdu they are almost exactly the same.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-17, 14:37

Meera wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:I think so. Tabloids are a definite yes, when I'm reading film news in Hindi/Urdu they are almost exactly the same.
Can you transliterate some excerpts from Hindi tabloids or film news? It would be interesting to see what the language is like.

I just downloaded an Urdu translation of a Harry Potter book and took a look at the first few pages. The vast majority of it seemed identical to spoken Hindi, though there were a few words that I wasn't sure whether Hindi-speakers without knowledge of Urdu would understand (khaufzada, munkashif, haadisaat, etc) - though since they were few enough in number, they wouldn't impede overall understanding very much and some could probably be guessed through context.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby Meera » 2015-07-19, 4:24

eskandar wrote:
Meera wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:I think so. Tabloids are a definite yes, when I'm reading film news in Hindi/Urdu they are almost exactly the same.
Can you transliterate some excerpts from Hindi tabloids or film news? It would be interesting to see what the language is like.


This is a a recent headline about Bahubali:
बाहुबली ने पहले दिन कमाए 50 करोड़
bahubali ne pahle din kamaiye 50 crore
http://www.bbc.com/hindi/entertainment/ ... earning_ac

The Urdu sentence about the film is practically the same that I found here
فلم بہوبلی نے ریلیز کے پہلے ہی دن 50 کروڑ کمالئے
http://dunya.com.pk/index.php/entertain ... asIgvlVgSU

I know both are different sentences but if I said the Urdu one above I'm sure a Hindi speaker may understand.

Another one I found:
हीरो को ही मिले ज़्यादा पैसा: तब्बू
hero ko hi mile zayada paisa: Tabu
http://www.bbc.com/hindi/entertainment/ ... ishyam_adp
I think Urdu would probably be similar to this.

I have some filmfares in Hindi and the language in that was not like the language on the bbc links I gave and I think if it was written in Urdu some Urdu speakers could understand, for example in this this picture some of the headlines :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lk1jhwshYOc/T ... o+2012.jpg

सोनम कपूर दे रही हैं फैशन टिप्स
Sonam Kapoor de rahi hain fashion tips


लड़के मुझसे डरते हैं
ladke mujhse derte hain

बीवी से कौन सी बात छुपाते हैं इमरान हाश्मी?
bivi se kaun si bat chupate hain imran hashmi?

and another issue:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9qHDu5gYJ00/U ... -hindi.jpg

The sentence about Katrina Kaif:
नंबर 1 कैटरीना कैफ़ की क्या है नई मंज़िल
numbar one katrina kaif ki kya hai nai manzil?

मैं करीना के साथ काम करने के लिए तैयार हूँ - शहीद कपूर
main kareena ke sath kaam karne ke liye tayar hoon.

शाहरुख़ और मेरे बीच कोई तनाव नहीं है
Shahrulkh aur mere bich koi tanav nahin hai.

Some things from this issue:
http://www.pinkvilla.com/files/imagecac ... 1157_n.jpg

पहली झलक
pahli jhalak
( I think in Urdu جھلک?)

... ख़ास आपके लिए
khass aapke liye

शाहरुख़ और मैं दोस्त हैं अजय देवगन ने किया ख़ुलासा
Shahrukh aur main dost hain ajay devagan ne kiya khulasa

I mean a lot of this may sound abrupt in Urdu, I'm not sure but I don't see why an Urdu speaker would not understand some of these. Even in the filmfare articles there were a couple words Urdu speakers may not understand but in general I think it would have been pretty simple for them if it was written in Urdu. Filmfare I think would even be easy for an upper beginner of Hindi to read. There is another magazine I like to read called meri saheli, and some headlines in there are about beauty, cooking and things like that. The magazine is aimed toward women. The articles in there are much harder than filmfare but even in there are some articles I think Urdu speakers could understand. For example some of the headlines on the magazines I have:

कैसे जीतें पति का दिल?
kaise jeteen pati ka dil?
(Maybe Urdu speakers dont use pati, but the word is used so commonly in Bollywood I would imagine some Urdu speakers would understand it.)

आज हर किसी की ज़रूरत है मेडिकल इंश्योरेंस
(aaj har kisi ki zuraat hai medical insurance)

क्यों होती है इतनी थकान?
(kyon hoti hai itni thakaan?)

बेहतर जीवन के लिए ५० + टिप्स
(behtar jivaan ke liye 50 + tips)

शादी के लिए ज़रूरी है मानसिक तैयारी
(shadi ke liye zururi hai mansik tayari)

I copied these directly from the articles so if the names or something is spelled weird it is because it was spelled this way in the article. I think a lot of articles and things about everday life is quite understandable in both Hindi/Urdu. Urdu speakers may not understand some of the Hindu references, but I know many Pakistanis and even Afghans who do know about them because of the Hindi films. Talking about entertainment though doesn't generally involve hard words either. It is mainly colloquial words.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-19, 11:36

These headlines are definitely in plain enough language that Urdu-speakers would easily understand them. Some differences could be guessed ('tanav' is 'tanaao' in Urdu; 'pati' as you pointed out could possibly be familiar; 'jiivan' is not really used in Urdu but people would know the word). Only 'mansik' would be totally unfamiliar. The only thing I would disagree about would be the influence of Bollywood. Yes, Hindi films are popular in Pakistan (and Afghanistan), but we can't generalize the general population as having learned Hindi.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby Meera » 2015-07-19, 15:08

Eskandar Bollywood films are very popular in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. I think most Pashtuns watch more Bollywood films than actual Pashtun films. Even in my childhood we all watced bootlegged Hindi movies without subs because no one really knew English. I remember my parent's friends and my cousins would all swap bootlegs of Hindi films in the early ninities. I am on a couple Bollywood forums and there are just as many Pakistani's on them as Indians. If you go to a Hindi movie here you will see Indians, Pakistanis and Afghans. It is not uncommon at all. Sometimes they even show Bollywood films on Afghan tv. I don't even remember watching an English movie when my family was in Afg. In Afghanistan today you will see posters of Bollywood stars on beauty parlors and they sell Hindi soundtracks in cd shops. It was the same thing in Pakistan but I was mainly among Pashtun speakers. On Urdu tv they report on Salman Khan, Katrina Kaif, Shahrukh Khan and all the big bollywood celebrities. I'm not saying thats how Pakistani's learned Hindi because they could probably already understand but I know in Afghanistan that is how I learned about the Hindu rituals and Hindu relegious words because everyone watched so much Bollywood. I mean this could also work with Muslim tradtions/words too and I think Hindi speakers who listen to music and watch bollywood learn it through that. And even through shows like Qubool Hai and Hindi films that center around Muslims. And I'm not sure if Farsi speakers in Afghanistan lean more towards Iranian movies, but I have seen some Afghan Farsi speakers who could have a conversation in Hindi/Urdu.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-19, 15:39

You misunderstood me, I wasn't denying the popularity of Bollywood films in Pakistan or Afghanistan. There are two points to be made here: (1) Just because people enjoy watching films doesn't necessarily mean they understand all, or even any, of the language used. A few years ago, the Korean song "Gangnam Style" was an international top hit. People were listening to it constantly in countries all over the world. But how much Korean did the majority of its non-Korean listeners understand? Probably zero, or close to it. I'm not saying that Pakistanis or Afghans don't understand anything when they watch Hindi films; obviously they understand a lot, because Hindi and Urdu are so close and even Pashto and Persian share tons of words with Hindi. But they can still follow a story with the help from visual cues, context, and the words that they do know, without understanding some of the Hindi words. (2) The more important point is that "Urdu-speakers in Pakistan learn some Hindi through Bollywood" does not mean the same thing as "Hindi words are intelligible to Urdu-speakers". Imagine a normal Pakistani Urdu-speaker who doesn't like Bollywood movies, or just hasn't seen many, or is too young or too old to watch films. They wouldn't understand Hindi words like "pati" or "mansik". Similarly, if you said "hola, ¿cómo estás?" many American English speakers would understand you because they've been exposed to basic Spanish through school or from Latino friends/neighbors/colleagues. But that doesn't mean that these words are understandable to American English speakers in general, and I'm sure there are millions of American English speakers who wouldn't understand.
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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-27, 18:44

Can someone transcribe what this man sings? (at least just the first stanza - from 0:18 to 0:37)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0rrsBeS4ys
(I'd like it on both scripts, but if you can do it in at least one of them, it's ok)

Thank you in advance :D

It is really hard for me, since I'm a beginner. I tried, and was only able to do the 1st verse:
"میرے قلب تھے کہنا" / "मेरे क़ल्ब तहए कहना"
(I hope it's correct)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-28, 15:51

You were close! Here's what I got

میرے قلب کا ہے یہ کہنا
mere qalb kaa hai ye kehnaa
مجھے آپ کے پاس یہ رہنا
mujhe aap ke paas hai rehnaa
میرے منزلِ راہ ہے مدینہ
mere manzil-e-raah hai madiina
میرے [؟؟؟] کو پاکیزہ ہونا
mere [???] ko paakiiza honaa - sorry, I couldn't get that one word!
مجھ کو بلا لو او محمد
mujh ko bolaa lo O Muhammad

You might have noticed that the video has a spelling mistake for the Arabic chorus :lol: It should be السلام عليكَ and not السلام عليكا .

میں نے اپنی فقہ چوڑی
maiN ne apnii fiqh choRii
جیسے ہی میں اندر آیا
jaise hi maiN andar aayaa
خود کو روزے کے سامنے پایا
khud ko roze kaa saamne paaya
آنکهوں میں بے عشقوں کو پایا
aaNkhoN meiN be-ishqoN ko paaya [not totally sure about this line]
میرے بھی سن لو او محمد
mere bhii sun lo O Muhammad
Last edited by eskandar on 2015-07-28, 20:51, edited 2 times in total.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-07-28, 20:18

eskandar wrote:میرے [؟؟؟] کو پاکیزہ ہونا
mere [???] ko paakiiza honaa - sorry, I couldn't get that one word!روح


Maybe the word is "روح" (spirit)?

"میرے روح کو ہے پاکیزہ ہونا" [mere ruhu ko hai paakiiza honaa] ?

Do you think that might be it? :D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby eskandar » 2015-07-28, 20:50

Yeah, I think that's right! Nicely done! By the way I edited my transcription above to fix a couple of mistakes I'd made earlier.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.


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