How close they are?

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-08-19, 4:46

Well, I actually believe it's pronounced like that in certain dialects. But, in Fusha, it's definitely /ɣ/ :)
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-19, 6:52

vijayjohn wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Nope! :lol: غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think. :)
It does? Huh?

Well, at least to me it does. And whenever I pronounce it that way when talking to native speakers of Arabic, Persian, or Urdu, they say my pronunciation is oh so great and other foreigners don't know how to pronounce ghain, although I'm sure you could argue without much trouble that that's not really evidence of anything...:P

I learned it that way from my brother, actually, who told me it was pronounced the way gr would be pronounced by French people speaking French.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. It doesn't sound like that to me.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-20, 3:19

cHr0mChIk wrote:Well, I actually believe it's pronounced like that in certain dialects. But, in Fusha, it's definitely /ɣ/ :)

There is such a thing as a Fusha pronunciation? I thought everyone pronounced Fusha in their own accent.
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Nope! :lol: غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think. :)
It does? Huh?

Well, at least to me it does. And whenever I pronounce it that way when talking to native speakers of Arabic, Persian, or Urdu, they say my pronunciation is oh so great and other foreigners don't know how to pronounce ghain, although I'm sure you could argue without much trouble that that's not really evidence of anything...:P

I learned it that way from my brother, actually, who told me it was pronounced the way gr would be pronounced by French people speaking French.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. It doesn't sound like that to me.

Yeah, I haven't heard anybody else say that either, tbh, but ever since my brother taught it to me that way, it's been hard for me to look at it any other way. :lol: I'd probably need a lot of convincing.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-20, 4:23

vijayjohn wrote:There is such a thing as a Fusha pronunciation? I thought everyone pronounced Fusha in their own accent.
Sure there is. It's based on tajwid and it's the one taught to Westerners. (Whether Arabs themselves teach it in schools, I don't know.) I find it irritating how Wikipedia has apparently decided "every regional pronunciation of Arabic (and Portuguese) ever must be represented in IPA" even though we use a standardized form for pretty much every other language, including English.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-20, 14:33

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:There is such a thing as a Fusha pronunciation? I thought everyone pronounced Fusha in their own accent.
Sure there is. It's based on tajwid and it's the one taught to Westerners. (Whether Arabs themselves teach it in schools, I don't know.)

Oh okay, thanks. Is that kind of like Vedic Sanskrit pronunciation then?

Also Wikipedia seems to say غ was /ʁˠ/ and it's in modern dialects that it's pronounced [ɣ].

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-20, 17:21

vijayjohn wrote:Oh okay, thanks. Is that kind of like Vedic Sanskrit pronunciation then?
I guess so. I know nothing about Vedic Sanskrit, so maybe. I'd say it's like ecclesiastical Latin, maybe - pretty closer to the classical language, but not exactly the same.
Also Wikipedia seems to say غ was /ʁˠ/ and it's in modern dialects that it's pronounced [ɣ].
I have no idea where they got the velarization from. I can believe it was uvular and became velar.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-20, 19:07

mōdgethanc wrote:I have no idea where they got the velarization from.

They say, "The consonants [ɾˠ, ɢˠ, ʁˠ, χˠ] are pronounced with velarization," but they don't give a source. They also say that the emphatic consonants were either velarized or pharyngealized (and they do have a source for that claim).

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-08-21, 2:17

vijayjohn wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:I have no idea where they got the velarization from.

They say, "The consonants [ɾˠ, ɢˠ, ʁˠ, χˠ] are pronounced with velarization," but they don't give a source. They also say that the emphatic consonants were either velarized or pharyngealized (and they do have a source for that claim).
Like I said, I have no idea where they got this stuff from. Keep in mind that page is about the reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Arabic, and there's a separate page on MSA. I find it hard to believe those sounds were all velarized and that Proto-Semitic *q became voiced and then in modern times, voiceless again (and then voiced to [g] again in some dialects). What I think happened there is that some enterprising amateur linguist looked at the rules for tajwid, which have prescientific descriptions of the phonetics of Classical Arabic, and tried to convert it into IPA. The fact that there is no source for this stuff is very sketchy. My rule for Wikipedia (and academic writing in general, of course) is, "Sources or it didn't happen".

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Re: How close they are?

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2015-09-01, 0:07

Is this correct?

वो तनहा कौन है? अल्लाहु अल्लाह
बादशाह वो कौन है? अल्लाहु अल्लाह
मेहरबान वो कौन है? अल्लाहु अल्लाह
क्या ऊँची शान है? अल्लाहु अल्लाह
उसके सब निशान है? अल्लाहु अल्लाह
सब दिलों की जान है? अल्लाहु अल्लाह

?

And, also, how's my pronunciation?

http://vocaroo.com/i/s08YgSwF9GJD

:D
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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Re: How close they are?

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-18, 14:56

Sorry for never replying earlier. The only mistake in your text is that वो should be spelled वह.

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Re: How close they are?

Postby mundiya » 2017-07-17, 11:22

Michael wrote:
cHr0mChIk wrote:If I understood well, Urdu is practically Hindi filled with Perso-Arabic loanwords and script. Pretty much the same relation Serbian and Bosnian have.

If you want to get technical, Hindi is Urdu with all the Perso-Arabic and even certain indigenous Prakritic words replaced by awkward shuddh creations. Hindustani/Urdu was originally a secular language, spoken by Hindu and Muslim alike. The Devanagari script was forced upon most portions of Hindustani-speaking India after independence because of the rise to power of the Hindu nationalists.


No, that's not true. Hindi has many Perso-Arabic words, more so in informal Hindi than formal Hindi. There are more literary Sanskrit words in formal Hindi, just as there are more literary Perso-Arabic words in formal Urdu.

When Muslims were in political power and had greater influence, more non-Muslims obviously knew Urdu than is the case today. But Urdu has always been more culturally associated with Muslims. As the Urdu scholar David Matthews notes about Urdu: " ...although a small number of its most prominent writers, especially during the twentieth century have been Hindus and Sikhs, the overwhelming majority have been, and still are, Muslims. "

Devanagari script wasn't "forced" after independence. Hindi in Devanagari script has roots going back to the 16th century if not earlier as noted in these articles by the Hindi scholar Imre Bangha:

Nagari_lipi_me_khari_boli_sahitya_ka_arambh.pdf
bangha_rekhta-.pdf
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