Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-03-21, 23:47

PiotrR wrote:1. How do you pronounce Klebér Saarenpää? /kle:_Fb@r sa_Fr@npE:/ /klêːbər sârənpɛː/? I think that's how it's pronounced in this video (0:38).

It is not a Swedish name, so there is no specific Swedish pronunciation.
PiotrR wrote:2. Is that the right pronunciation of Tommy Söderberg? /tU_Fmmy: s2:_Fd@rbE_Frj/ /tʊ̂mmyː sø̂ːdərbɛ̂rj/

Or should it be /tO_Fmmy:/ /tɔ̂mmyː/? /ʊ/ is the normal value of short <o> in Swedish, but then in this recording Tommy sounds as if it was pronounced with /ɔ/, a short <å>.

It is normally approximately ['tɔmmʏ'sɞ:dɛr,bɛrj]. The letter <o> is very uncertain, so it can be /u/ or /ɔ/ or /o/ and if unstressed /ɛ/, /e/, /ə/.
PiotrR wrote:3. Why is there no geminated [ʂː] in this recording of the name Patrik Andersson? It's pronounced [p_hA:_Ft4Ik a_Fn:d@s`O_Fn] [pʰɑ̂ːtɾɪk ânːdəʂɔ̂n], yet there are two <s> in the spelling.

The unstressed position makes it a short sound, and the double spelling is not for pronunciation but for meaning and origin, so <rss> is only one sound [ʂ] in the name Andersson. If you say "Anders son", then you might have [ʂs]. Morphologically, there should actually be three s in Andersson, since you have Anders+genitive-s+son, but the genitive of Anders is only Anders, so it does not happen.
PiotrR wrote:I don't normally use X-SAMPA, but I don't know how your browsers handle tonal diacritics.

Why have you bothered with those circumflexes for falling tone?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-22, 1:35

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
Last edited by PiotrR on 2014-04-02, 2:10, edited 4 times in total.

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-03-22, 1:54

PiotrR wrote:I suppose I should read [ɞː] as a variant of /øː/?

It is my pronunciation of the long ö-sound, but it might be a novation during the last century. Earlier dialectal speech around here used [øː] for ö and [ɞː] for ô.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-22, 1:56

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
Last edited by PiotrR on 2014-04-02, 2:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-03-22, 11:11

PiotrR wrote:There seems to be a regional variation, because a native speaker of Göteborg Swedish told me that he prefers an acute accent in the surname: /s2:_Fd@rbErj/ /sø̂ːdərbɛrj/

The two tonemes differ in my speech at least, only as they also are named:
akut accent = enstavighetsaccent (the second syllable's vowel is almost lost) tomt-tomtn
grav accent = tvåstavighetsaccent (the second syllable is heard) tomte-tomten, men jultomte-jultomtn

So I probably use the acute accent in Söder and Söderberg, making them rather Södr and Södrberg.

The stress difference between Gothenburgian and Nercian (as I have) is basically that they rise at the end of the sentence, while we go down at the end, so their speech is more emphatic. Otherwise, Gothenburgians have mistaken me for being one of them, since we share much pronunciation compared with the Stockholmers.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Grytolle » 2014-03-22, 16:54

I'd definitely use sammansättningsaccent in Söderberg. A falling tone on Sö and a rising tone on berg. (same as in tågstation). I'd write it like this in the simplified pronunciation keys I give my students: /s`ödeb´ärj/ :mrgreen:

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-03-22, 18:53

Grytolle wrote:sammansättningsaccent

I had never heard that term before. :shock: (Well, I still have not heard it.)

And it might be that I let the r drop and not the e. :oops:
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Grytolle » 2014-03-22, 20:23

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Grytolle wrote:sammansättningsaccent

I had never heard that term before. :shock: (Well, I still have not heard it.)

And it might be that I let the r drop and not the e. :oops:

Some people seem to treat it as simply grav accent, but if you compare "mästare" and "tågstation" you will notice that in mästare only one syllable is long, and that the tone goes up immediatly in the next syllable, whereas in tågstation it stays down until you reach the second long syllable

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby TeneReef » 2014-03-23, 18:00

Exact phonetic realization of compound words is extremely accent-dependent in Swedish:

Image

Image

source: https://www.academia.edu/5143304/Region ... _synthesis
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Marah » 2014-05-13, 19:56

What does "asfina" mean?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-13, 21:01

"Fucking beautiful" would probably be the closest translation.

It's made up from the parts as, which literally means "carcass", and fina, which is "beautiful" in its plural form.
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Marah » 2014-05-13, 21:39

Tack, Johanna. :)
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-14, 19:45

Det var så lite :)
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby TeneReef » 2014-05-15, 0:05

Hi,
which tone(me) have these toponyms:
Falun, Mora, Avesta, Borlänge?

I think the 2nd tone (gravis) but I'm not sure.
Tusen tack. :wink:

My Swedish-Croatian dictionary does not list them:
http://lexikon.nada.kth.se/lexin/#searc ... _hrv,falu;
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby razlem » 2014-05-20, 22:00

Hvad är avvikelserna bland "börja", "starta", "begynna", och "sätta igång"?
What are the differences between " " " "
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby TeneReef » 2014-05-21, 3:32

Short explanation: begynna is not used much, if at all, (unlike begynne in Bokmål ), börja is preferred (like byrja in Nynorsk).

Long explanation (examples from Norstedts Swedish-English dictionary):


börja
vb tr o. vb itr allm. begin, start; högtidl. commence; ta itu med set about ⁅[att] arbeta working⁆; inleda, påbörja äv. institute, initiate; t.ex. förhandlingar, fälttåg äv. open; sätta in set in; ~ [att el. på att] + inf. begin (etc.) to + inf.; spec. om avsiktlig handling el. vid opers. vb äv. begin (etc.), + ing-form; ~ dricka supa begin (take to) drinking; vard. take to the bottle; ~ springa start (set off) running; boken ~r säljas nästa vecka the sale of the book will begin next week; det ~r bli mörkt (kallt) it is getting dark (cold); ~ ett anfall launch an attack; ~ sin bana som… start (begin life) as…; ~ en resa start [on] a journey; ~ från början start afresh ([all over] again), make a fresh start, recommence; till att ~ med to begin (start) with; först […men] at first; ~ på ngt start on (t.ex. ett arbete set about) sth; ordet ~r på h …begins with an h; nu ~s det! nu börjar eländet now we are in for it!, here we go!; ~ om begin (start) [all over] again; ~ ˈpå begin, set (fall) to; ~ [ˈpå] med ngt begin (start, lead off) with sth; ~ ˈpå att + inf., se ovan



starta
I vb itr start; flyg. take off; ge sig av äv. set out (off) II vb tr start [up] äv. bil, motor o. friare; sätta i gång (äv. friare) set…going, get…afloat; affärsföretag o.d. äv. launch; butik äv. set up; tidning äv. found; ~ eget start one’s own business, set up one’s own; ~ en kampanj launch a campaign III med beton. part.
~ om data. restart, reboot


s. igång
sätta…i ~ start…, set…going; sätta i ~ itr. start, go ahead; med arbete get busy; sätt i ~! get going


begynna
vb tr o. vb itr begin; jfr vidare börja
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby hashi » 2014-05-23, 13:09

razlem wrote:Hvad är avvikelserna bland "börja", "starta", "begynna", och "sätta igång"?
What are the differences between " " " "


Jag är ju inte svensk, men jag skulle ha sagt:
> Vad är skillnaderna mellan ... osv.

Jag vet inte det korrekta svaret, men jag skulle säga att man använder bara "börja". Har aldrig hört eller läst "begynna" och "sätta igång", och har sällan sett "starta". Jag tror att det går helt okej om du använder bara "börja". Det kanske finns några fall där bara "starta" kan användas, men jag skulle inte veta, förlåt :)

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-23, 13:58

hashi wrote:
razlem wrote:Hvad är avvikelserna bland "börja", "starta", "begynna", och "sätta igång"?
What are the differences between " " " "

Jag är ju inte svensk, men jag skulle ha sagt:
> Vad är skillnaderna mellan ... osv.

Helt korrekt :)

hashi wrote:Jag vet inte det korrekta rätta svaret, men jag skulle säga att man använder bara "börja". Har aldrig hört eller läst "begynna" och "sätta igång", och har sällan sett "starta". Jag tror att det går helt okej om du använder bara "börja". Det kanske finns några fall där bara "starta" kan användas, men jag skulle inte veta vet inte, förlåt :)

"Sätta igång" är ganska vanligt men "begynna" används i princip aldrig utan känns väldigt litterärt och gammaldags.

Och jo, det finns flera fall där man måste säga "starta", till exempel så kan man inte börja bilen utan bara starta den. Eller ja, man kan sätta igång den också :)
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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby hashi » 2014-05-24, 22:35

Johanna wrote:Och jo, det finns flera fall där man måste säga "starta", till exempel så kan man inte börja bilen utan bara starta den. Eller ja, man kan sätta igång den också :)
Mmm, man kan inte 'börja' (begin) en bil på engelska heller.

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Re: Swedish Discussion & Minor Questions

Postby razlem » 2014-05-30, 15:11

kö = /køː/
kök = /ɕøːk/

:dunno:

Are there any other cases where the k (or sk) change before front vowels doesn't apply?
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