Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

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Re: Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

Postby Johanna » 2018-11-14, 23:23

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Some compare the non-phonetic spelling of Swedish to the non-phonetic spelling of French.
Is this a bit of a stretch (i.e. an exaggeration), or is that comparison rather straight-forward?

I'm gonna tackle this first since I'm tired and this is a much shorter thing to answer than your previous post.

I would say that it's much easier to learn how to deduce the pronunciation of a word from written Standard French than written Standard Swedish, but if you do it the other way around, it's a bit less difficult to guess the correct spelling from the pronunciation when dealing with Standard Swedish rather than Standard French.

Or at least that was the case until Standard Swedish started to be overtaken by spelling pronunciations, but it has honestly only added to the complexity. Some speakers have gone down this rabbit hole, others haven't, and even among the first group there are certain words that sound oddly pedantic if you pronounce them as written in normal speech.

Standard Swedish is also sort of based on the Västerås dialect of the 16th century, although it wasn't truly standardized until three centuries later and underwent a massive spelling reform in the early 20th century. The thing is, some traditions die hard and that spelling reform didn't care much for etymology... At the same time, the Modern French orthography was designed to be at least semi-etymological while balancing the pronunciation of the standard variety.

Long story short, it's not really an exaggeration or straight-forward, the situation is just different.
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Re: Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2018-11-15, 20:13

Honestly, I don't think Swedish is that bad, so I must be missing something. The greatest single complication seems to be orthographic <o>, which covers four different phonemes. (I'm not learning a variety which distinguishes /ɛ/ and /e/.) Even here there's a useful rule of thumb which covers the majority of cases.

Personal pronouns are a mess, but they form a small closed set. Otherwise it seems to be just the occasional silent <d> (and even more occasional silent <g>).
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Re: Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2019-01-19, 21:08

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Some compare the non-phonetic spelling of Swedish to the non-phonetic spelling of French.
Is this a bit of a stretch (i.e. an exaggeration), or is that comparison rather straight-forward?
Johanna wrote:Long story short, it's not really an exaggeration or straight-forward, the situation is just different.
linguoboy wrote:Honestly, I don't think Swedish is that bad, so I must be missing something. The greatest single complication seems to be orthographic <o>, which covers four different phonemes. (I'm not learning a variety which distinguishes /ɛ/ and /e/.) Even here there's a useful rule of thumb which covers the majority of cases.

Personal pronouns are a mess, but they form a small closed set. Otherwise it seems to be just the occasional silent <d> (and even more occasional silent <g>).

You are both right and wrong. The spelling is both simple and very complicated in relation to natural speech, sort of like Norn Iron for Northern Ireland. Swedish pronunciation is often very slurred. For the vowels I once counted thirty graphophonemic relations between nine letters and twelve sounds. Some consonants are silent, others are pronounced in another way, but when the official view supports spelling-pronunciations, the connection to reality is a bit lacking in clarity.
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Re: Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

Postby yellow hoist » 2019-03-19, 18:36

Why: "Han är kock." not "Han är en kock."

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Re: Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2019-03-19, 19:27

yellow hoist wrote:Why: "Han är kock." not "Han är en kock."

Convention.

Really, there's no "why". It's just that Swedish and other Germanic languages (including German but not English) don't use indefinite articles before predicate nouns indicating occupation, religion, nationality, etc.:

Jag är ingenjör.
Han är muslim.
Är du vegetarian?

This is a widespread SAE (Standard Average European) feature. Compare Spanish:

Soy ingeniero.
Él es musulmán.
¿Eres vegetariano?
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Re: Diskussionstråd / Discussion and Minor Questions

Postby Johanna » 2019-03-20, 0:06

What linguoboy said.

It may change in a few decades though, you can hear people of my generation (born in the 1980's) and younger doing it the English way in speech sometimes. The most common victim is occupations.
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Re: Sammansatta ord som får annat genus

Postby hembygdsfanatiker » 2019-10-30, 16:22

Säger man en hemygdsfanatiker eller ett hembygdsfanatiker och isåfall varför?

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Re: Sammansatta ord som får annat genus

Postby Johanna » 2019-11-03, 15:35

hembygdsfanatiker wrote:Säger man en hemygdsfanatiker eller ett hembygdsfanatiker och isåfall varför?

Man säger "en hembygdsfanatiker", för att "fanatiker är utrum. Det är det normala, att sammansatta ords genus tar efter sista ledet.
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