Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

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Woods
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Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Woods » 2018-03-06, 21:53

Det här är ett jättefantastiskt band från Luleå, men när jag lyssnar till detta, så hör jag en stark kontrast mellan de två sjungare:

Movits! - Som Det Brinner

En av dem sjunger på ett sätt, som jag ville godkänna som normal svenska, men den anden låter lite som en danskar. På många ställer kan man höra, att ljudet /a/ hellre blir uttalat som [ɛ].

Jag valde denna sången inte för jag tycker den är den bästa, men för man klart kan höra skillnaden mellan de två sjungares dialekter.

Den här är också jättebra och man kan också höra några ljud som inte låtar standardsvenska, t. ex. i refrängen:

Movits! - Lindansen

Hundra meter från marken – säker död om jag faller ned
/’hundra ’meter ’fron ’mɛrkɛn ’sɛker død om ja ’fɛlə ne/

Och därefter går det ”desto fler vill se det ske” – säger man inte hända i Sverige hellre än ske?

Jag kan också höra på et tidspunkt han säger ”Vad gör han däruppe är han fandeme /’fɛnmɛ/ inte klok?” – det låter också hellre danskt än svenskt, eller finns det ett svenskt sätt att säga och skriva det på?

Jag tror också, några gångar i deras sånger, verb som har ändningen -är bliver uttalat som /-ɛr/, liksom svimmar – han uttalar /’svimɛr/, druknar – han uttalar /’dryknɛr/ osv. Jag tror också han säger /’jɛrtɛt/ istället för /’jɛrtat/ i ordet hjärtat:

Movits! - Nitroglycerin

Tror ni, at båda sjungarna är från Luleå, eller kommer en av dem kanske från Skåne eller ett annat ställe i närheten av Danmark?


Med risk att irritera några människor, det finns också ordet guillotine i en av sångerna skrevet på två olika sätter – sådan här och också giljotin. Är det, att ordet skrivas giljotin på svenska, men dem som har skrivit texterna på nätet inte känner det och har skrivit guillotine istället?

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Johanna
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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Johanna » 2018-03-08, 17:27

None of these songs are in Standard Swedish or any actual Swedish dialects. They're in some kind of affected mix that incorporates a lot of English and that I can barely even make heads or tails of.

Once again, do you really want to learn about Swedish or do you just want to paint it black?
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Woods » 2018-03-09, 14:48

Of course I want to learn it - why else would I waste my time?

I don’t want to paint it black, just sometimes I’m annoyed it’s been made too complicated and don’t get to see why.


Johanna wrote:None of these songs are in Standard Swedish or any actual Swedish dialects. They're in some kind of affected mix that incorporates a lot of English and that I can barely even make heads or tails of.

Hm, what does that mean?

Why would they sing like that?

This is my favourite Swedish band by the way (I mean from the ones that actually sing in Swedish). It would be sad if you said that this is not even Swedish :D

I’m writing in Swedish, you’re replying in English, why? :D

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Aurinĭa » 2018-03-09, 15:09

Woods wrote:sometimes I’m annoyed it’s been made too complicated and don’t get to see why.

It's perfectly understandable to be annoyed at complications when learning a language. But it's not correct to say that Swedish has been made too complicated. None of these things that you say make Swedish more complicated than Danish have been designed that way, it's simply the way the language evolved. It would also be more true to the evolution of these languages to say that Danish lost those complications, while Swedish retained some of them. I can understand that it doesn't feel like that if you look at Swedish from a Danish mindset, which is why it might be better if you look at both Swedish and Danish as equal descendants of Old Norse, which they are.

Woods wrote:I’m writing in Swedish, you’re replying in English, why?

Have you never accidentally replied in the wrong language? :P
I'm doing it too now, I could reply in Swedish (it'd take me a bit longer, but I would be able to), but I see English, I was using English before I read your post, and I reply in English without thinking. It happens.

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Woods » 2018-03-09, 20:17

Aurinĭa wrote:None of these things that you say make Swedish more complicated than Danish have been designed that way, it's simply the way the language evolved.

Well, maybe some of these things in particular, but there are many other instances where it was designed to be different - like writing "vad" instead of "hvad", all the French words and recently even "o" and "mej" instead of "och" and "mig." It's a matter of language policy, not of natural evolution - the people taking care of some languages prefer keeping things as they were (French, English etc.) and those responsible for some other ones prefer changing everything (Swedish, Norwegian...)

Nonetheless we know we disagree about which one is better, so let's not get into it.

I'm also curious why they've put "ä" at so many places - do you think it's a natural evolution?


Aurinĭa wrote:Have you never accidentally replied in the wrong language? :P
I'm doing it too now, I could reply in Swedish (it'd take me a bit longer, but I would be able to)

I wouldn't mind if you replied in Vlaams either :) It might take me a couple more minutes to look up some words in the dictionary, but I'd learn some Dutch and I'd be happy :)

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Johanna » 2018-03-10, 21:28

Woods wrote:
Johanna wrote:None of these songs are in Standard Swedish or any actual Swedish dialects. They're in some kind of affected mix that incorporates a lot of English and that I can barely even make heads or tails of.

Hm, what does that mean?

Why would they sing like that?

Don't ask me, but my guess is that they think it sounds cool.

ll I know is that they sound like native English speakers doing music in Swedish.

Woods wrote:I’m writing in Swedish, you’re replying in English, why? :D

Fördä ja ŕåka svara på dett annre enlegg här i dä svänska forumt, å dä va på ängełska ;)

Woods wrote:I'm also curious why they've put "ä" at so many places - do you think it's a natural evolution?

No, but since there definitely is a difference between words like en - /en/ (a, one) - and än - /ɛn/ (yet) - using "ä" in non-etymological places has its use. We couldn't use the same distribution as Norwegian even if we wanted to, and it's not the same as in Danish ether.

I agree that the current spelling is a mess, but at least it's only really confusing when /e/ and /ɛ/ have merged.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Woods » 2018-03-18, 14:00

Johanna wrote:ll I know is that they sound like native English speakers doing music in Swedish.

Donno, but I got this from their website:

"Studion är belägen i ett hus i ett bostadskvarter på Hertsön utanför Luleå. Här har bröderna Johan och Anders Rensfeldt vuxit upp tillsammans"


Johanna wrote:
Woods wrote:I’m writing in Swedish, you’re replying in English, why? :D

Fördä ja ŕåka svara på dett annre enlegg här i dä svänska forumt, å dä va på ängełska ;)

Are you trying to write in Movits!' dialect or making fun of my spelling? :D

Du kan också utan problem skriva på svenska själv när vi skriver på engelska - jag tror alla som är interesserade i språket ska förstå. Vi skriver några gångar på engelska istället för vårt engelska inte är bra nok eller för vi är lata, men det betyder inte, att vi inte förstår!


Johanna wrote:
Woods wrote:I'm also curious why they've put "ä" at so many places - do you think it's a natural evolution?

No, but since there definitely is a difference between words like en - /en/ (a, one) - and än - /ɛn/ (yet) - using "ä" in non-etymological places has its use. We couldn't use the same distribution as Norwegian even if we wanted to, and it's not the same as in Danish ether.

What about "enn" instead of "än"? But one gets used to this one, I guess - what is annoying (to me at least cause I've also learnt Danish) is when the "ä" is stuck in non-etymological places where it's not even needed - say, before two consonants (like "bästa" instead of "besta" or "bessta", "vändning" instead of "vendning" etc. It's really confusing, slows down reading and learning and causes spelling problems when writing due to its difference with its two other brother languages!

Even if I get used to it one day, one thing is for sure - I will keep misspelling (unintentionally!) "jag" as "jeg," "och" as "og" and "också" as "også" in every sentence I write probably for the rest of my life :D

On the same ä/e topic, do you really pronounce the word "en" as /en/? I'm pretty sure I've heard it as /ɛn/:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yF7LuiuStI


She says, as far as I can hear: /Jå 'drømɛr 'drømar om at 'ala føʃ'vinɛr, ɛn 'ɛftɛr ɛn/


(by å I mean the Swedish dark a, don't know what its proper etymological sign is :) But the /ɛ/ is very clear!)


But I agree that I should learn more about the language's history and then I'll agree with all forms and spellings that were the way they are now also at previous stages of the language's evolution. If Danish has unnecessarily changed them and not Swedish then I will point at Danish as the bad guy!

(got any examples?)


Really, feel free to reply in Swedish anytime!

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby Johanna » 2018-03-18, 19:13

Woods wrote:
Johanna wrote:ll I know is that they sound like native English speakers doing music in Swedish.

Donno, but I got this from their website:

"Studion är belägen i ett hus i ett bostadskvarter på Hertsön utanför Luleå. Här har bröderna Johan och Anders Rensfeldt vuxit upp tillsammans"

So, it's an accent I'm not that familiar with.

Woods wrote:
Johanna wrote:
Woods wrote:I’m writing in Swedish, you’re replying in English, why? :D

Fördä ja ŕåka svara på dett annre enlegg här i dä svänska forumt, å dä va på ängełska ;)

Are you trying to write in Movits!' dialect or making fun of my spelling? :D

That's my actual mother tongue, the Westrogothian dialect :)

Woods wrote:
Johanna wrote:
Woods wrote:I'm also curious why they've put "ä" at so many places - do you think it's a natural evolution?

No, but since there definitely is a difference between words like en - /en/ (a, one) - and än - /ɛn/ (yet) - using "ä" in non-etymological places has its use. We couldn't use the same distribution as Norwegian even if we wanted to, and it's not the same as in Danish ether.

What about "enn" instead of "än"? But one gets used to this one, I guess - what is annoying (to me at least cause I've also learnt Danish) is when the "ä" is stuck in non-etymological places where it's not even needed - say, before two consonants (like "bästa" instead of "besta" or "bessta", "vändning" instead of "vendning" etc. It's really confusing, slows down reading and learning and causes spelling problems when writing due to its difference with its two other brother languages!

[...]

On the same ä/e topic, do you really pronounce the word "en" as /en/? I'm pretty sure I've heard it as /ɛn/:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yF7LuiuStI


She says, as far as I can hear: /Jå 'drømɛr 'drømar om at 'ala føʃ'vinɛr, ɛn 'ɛftɛr ɛn/

The thing is, [ɛ] is pretty much the default and [e] the more marked one even when it doesn't matter. At least in stressed syllables in most accents.

I should also say that many accents merge /ɛ/ and /e/, like the one in the video. Most do this into /ɛ/, again like in the video, but in Stockholm and Gothenburg, they usually do it into /e/ instead.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

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Re: Uttalar man "a" som [ɛ] i Norra Sverige?

Postby TeneReef » 2018-04-14, 17:16

I've heard tillbaka pronounced with the final /e/.
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