Moderator:Johanna
Woods wrote:I don't understand why people get pissed off when I have an opinion and defend it, be it about a feature in a language that is not my mother tongue which I'm learning.
I recently spoke with one Swedish girl in Finland and told her the one thing I don't like about Swedish is how it changes the spelling of some words she said "that's because we don't do things like everybody else!" Knowing the reaction that will follow if I insisted that I think it's more cool to write "restaurant" even then the thing is pronounced as /rɛstoraŋ/, I just answered "That's really cool."
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Well, one of several possible reasons could be that at times, people make mental connections like "you "attack" my point of view=you attack myself personally"... This is what some think, even if things in reality of course aren't that simple...
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Woods wrote:Och i förhållande till främmande ordena, är det en helt annan diskussion som vi redan har haft här i forumet och inte bliver eniga om
Jag har inte besökt forumet på några år, så jag är inte bekant med den diskussionen. Var den generell eller för svenskan? (Har jag skrivit där?)
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Woods wrote:2. Främmande ord skrivas i vissa fall liksom i främmande språket: bureau, niveau, essai, e-mail
En extra svårighet tillkommer för namn och ord från andra skriftsystem, så Akilles skrivs med Linear B, Sargon med kilskrift och Ramses med hieroglyfer, om man ställer saken på sin spets.
This is the discussion in question, where everyone is against me in keeping foreign loans as they are.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:German spelling is unnecessarily horrible, due to small things like the letters v and ä, that can denote whichever sound.
linguoboy wrote:Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:German spelling is unnecessarily horrible, due to small things like the letters v and ä, that can denote whichever sound.
V I get (though in practice, it's never ambiguous because v only has the value /f/ in native words), but ä? In what way is this letter ambiguous?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:V in place names is arbitrary to me, so if I read Seevetal, has it f or w? Ä in ordinary words is often e, Qualität, Diät, Ägypten
awrui wrote:Also, it's pronounced ä in all of those words... If you hear e instead, you're probably talking to some kind of hillbilly.
awrui wrote:Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:V in place names is arbitrary to me, so if I read Seevetal, has it f or w?
With place names I go with if it's in the north, it's w, if it's in the south, it's f Like the name Valentin: in the north it's "Walentin", in the south it's "Falentin". So Seevetal, I'd pronounce it Seewetal if it's in the north and Seefetal if it's in the south (no idea where it actually is), and then wait for a local person to correct me in the rare case I'm wrong
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.
awrui wrote:Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:V in place names is arbitrary to me, so if I read Seevetal, has it f or w? Ä in ordinary words is often e, Qualität, Diät, Ägypten
With place names I go with if it's in the north, it's w, if it's in the south, it's f Like the name Valentin: in the north it's "Walentin", in the south it's "Falentin". So Seevetal, I'd pronounce it Seewetal if it's in the north and Seefetal if it's in the south (no idea where it actually is), and then wait for a local person to correct me in the rare case I'm wrong
Also, it's pronounced ä in all of those words... If you hear e instead, you're probably talking to some kind of hillbilly.
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:awrui wrote:Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:V in place names is arbitrary to me, so if I read Seevetal, has it f or w?
With place names I go with if it's in the north, it's w, if it's in the south, it's f Like the name Valentin: in the north it's "Walentin", in the south it's "Falentin". So Seevetal, I'd pronounce it Seewetal if it's in the north and Seefetal if it's in the south (no idea where it actually is), and then wait for a local person to correct me in the rare case I'm wrong
I have only been in the north, but there are lots of such placenames. In this case it is directly south of Hamburg.
Cuxhaven, Verden, Hannover, Bad Bevensen, Veddel, Grevesmühlen, Volksburg, ...
Car wrote:No, the pronunciation of ä as /e:/ in those cases is common all over northern Germany at least.
https://www.dw.com/de/b%C3%A4ren-fresse ... /a-4159476
awrui wrote:I think the question of respelling is more of a philosophical dimention: Who is written language for? Respelling makes it easier for children to learn how to write, while using the original spelling is for people who already have a lot of knowledge about language.
awrui wrote:They believe the reason Finnish pupils are better at reading than Norwegian pupils is the phonetical writing.
Also, let's be honest- most people don't become language nerds like us.
I don't care if my nurse knows where the word "bandage" comes from
children question spelling A LOT. "Why do I have to write it like this?" (...) When they're just starting to write, they (...) are writing the way they hear words. So foreign speling is frustrating and makes them suffer.
Children that age ususally don't know the difference between french and latin. They have enough with learning more words in their own native language(s)
The un-phonetical writing is also one of the reasons why children hate laerning french and english so much.
My solution: remove all foreign words which would have difficult writing. Make native words instead. Niveau (nivå) -> trinn.
Woods wrote:Children learn any kind of spelling without a question, and teaching them an etymologically correct form sets them up for more easily learning languages in the future and understanding more about their own language as well.
Example: My 48-old student whose two native and close-to-native languages are Finnish and Swedish - both neglecting etymology in their writing as if it wasn't even a thing - asks spelling questions which no person from any other nationality which language I know a thing or two about would ever come up with
Woods wrote:(not even speakers of Bulgarian which uses another alphabet - but to all of yours' surprise it still follows the original spelling when transcribing the words - for example, "c" will become "ц", while "s" will become "с" - in order to avoid any confusion about whether medicine was "medicina" or "medisina" in Latin or whether Cicero was "Cicero" or "Sisero")
Woods wrote:English is the one that does it right - the grammar is simple, modern and as simple to handle as possible, while words keep their original spelling!
Johanna wrote:My take on this discussion is that we should respell things so that they fit Swedish phonology.
Honestly, you shouldn't have to learn the spelling rules of German, French and English just to be able to spell our most common loans. Not to mention, how are students of Swedish to know that in this system with strictly etymological spelling, race is from French and pronounced /rɑːs/, instead of from English and pronounced /rɛjs/?
Heck, in Danish, they had no idea how to actually pronounce it, so the -e isn't silent unlike in French.
I'm talking about the noun that has to do with phenotype, which in Swedish applies to breeds of domesticated animals first and foremost. The noun that is about who traverses a certain distance in the least amount of time is still spelled like in its source language English, and pronounced accordingly.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.
Woods wrote:awrui wrote:They believe the reason Finnish pupils are better at reading than Norwegian pupils is the phonetical writing.
I'm not sure I understand you - "they" (some unknown to all of us set of people) believe Norwegian children to be less capable of reading than Finnish ones, whatever that means? It sounds like total nonsense, but I guess we would have to agree with it since "they" have said so!
cause when you don't question things and want to get the whole picture about any area of knowledge or expertise you come in contact with (either languages such as English or Latin that you will use in your practice or the particular area in which you specialise or the whole anatomy of the human body for example)
Quite a few, actually. (if I was the boss, everyone would learn an non-indoeurpean language from grade 5, and another one from grade 8)And can you point me to a single person in Europe who wouldn't like to learn more languages?
If you, like me, want to learn all of Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and German, wouldn't you prefer them to all be aligned with the most etymologically correct set of rules?
How difficult is it to explain to them? "We write ph, my dear, because a lot of the words in our language come from Ancient Greek, which had a culture which has contributed a lot to our knowledge and understanding of the world. Whenever you see ph, just remember - it's word that has its origins in Ancient Greek." - Boom! We have a child that's now more intellingent and understands things. What a pity!
Well, I think it's also a good idea to know as much about which word comes originally from one's own native language, or its language family, and which one was borrowed, from where and for what purpose.
English is the one that does it right - the grammar is simple, modern and as simple to handle as possible, while words keep their original spelling!
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