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Meera and dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-21, 12:36
by dEhiN
Hej alla, jag är dEhiN. I'm starting to learn Swedish - actually I learned en lite in the past, but now am trying again. I'm a beginner, and this will be my thread for any questions I have, attempts at translations (in the future), etc. I will probably write a mix of Swedish and English in the beginning so I can practice the few words I know.

Jag har en question: how do I pronounce the two <a> in dansa? I say /dɒnsɐ/ but Wiktionary has an audio clip that says it like /dansa/.

Tack in advance!

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-21, 16:56
by Osias
I strongly suspect the answer is long, complex and involves dialects.

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-21, 22:02
by Jurgen Wullenwever
Well, it is about the stress, I think. The first a is a stressed short vowel, while the second is a short unstressed vowel, and a is the only vowel that did not become schwa in every unstressed situation in Swedish.

So if I made a clear bookish speech, then I would say /'dansa/ with two approximately similar vowels. In normal speech, on the other hand, I might say /'dæˑnsə/ or /'dæˑnsɐ/. Notice the semilengthened vowel, that belongs to the whining accents in central Sweden (gnällbältet). The second vowel is here much weaker than in the bookish version. :!:

Osias wrote:I strongly suspect the answer is long, complex and involves dialects.

Satisfied? :partyhat:

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-21, 23:28
by Osias
Yes, I forgot about stress. :)

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-24, 0:30
by dEhiN
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Well, it is about the stress, I think. The first a is a stressed short vowel, while the second is a short unstressed vowel, and a is the only vowel that did not become schwa in every unstressed situation in Swedish.

So if I made a clear bookish speech, then I would say /'dansa/ with two approximately similar vowels. In normal speech, on the other hand, I might say /'dæˑnsə/ or /'dæˑnsɐ/. Notice the semilengthened vowel, that belongs to the whining accents in central Sweden (gnällbältet). The second vowel is here much weaker than in the bookish version. :!:

Tack så mycket Jurgen! I thought Swedish doesn't have /æ/? Would my pronunciation of /dɒnsɐ/ sound weird? What if I said either /dɑnsɐ/ or /dansɐ/? Although I guess it's not really difficult for me to learn to say /dænsɐ/.

I remember listening to a song by Linnea Henriksson called Dansar med mig where she says /dansar/, or at least I thought that's what she said. But I just listened to it again, and it sounds more like /dænsɐɾ/. Here is a YT video of her singing it. It's set to start right when she says the titular line: https://youtu.be/ri4oErOxlEA?t=69

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-24, 20:40
by Jurgen Wullenwever
dEhiN wrote:I thought Swedish doesn't have /æ/?

Official descriptions always have ä as /æ/ before r, but that is not as frequent nowadays, and it has never been in use in my part of the country.

dEhiN wrote:Although I guess it's not really difficult for me to learn to say /dænsɐ/.

No, please do not. That I give my pronunciation is for information about the extent of the language, not as something to aim for, unless you have some hillbilly or country hick aspirations. :twisted: Try to say something like /dansa/.

In my speech, /j/ is /z/ in some positions, and /z/ does not exist in Swedish either ... :P

dEhiN wrote:I remember listening to a song by Linnea Henriksson called Dansar med mig where she says /dansar/, or at least I thought that's what she said. But I just listened to it again, and it sounds more like /dænsɐɾ/.

To me, it seems more like /da/, but it is not so easy to hear.

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-24, 20:45
by linguoboy
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:In my speech, /j/ is /z/ in some positions, and /z/ does not exist in Swedish either ...

Exempel?

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-25, 19:31
by Jurgen Wullenwever
Bokstavsnamnet ji, bjuda, djur, jord, uj, jakt har konsonantiskt [z], medan aj, ej, borg, färg, fälg, älgjakt har ett vokaliskt j (antagligen [i], men jag är osäker på tecknet). Det förefaller röra sig om en övergång från [ʝ] till [z].

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-25, 21:25
by linguoboy
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Bokstavsnamnet ji, bjuda, djur, jord, uj, jakt har konsonantiskt [z]

Alltså [ˈbzʉːdə]?

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 20:33
by Jurgen Wullenwever
Ni kanske kan höra skillnaden mellan två uttal av bjuda. Det första är mer åt det "normala" hållet, medan det andra är mer provinsiellt, så ungefär [bʝʉ˒ːβda bzʉ˒ːβdɐ].
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0myXdiAUALl

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 20:39
by dEhiN
Does the word gammel exist in Swedish? For some reason I have it in my Anki deck as meaning "old" and being a Swedish word. But when I look it up on Wiktionary, it only gives it as a Nynorsk word. Tack i advance.

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 21:01
by Jurgen Wullenwever
dEhiN wrote:Does the word gammel exist in Swedish?

It is an alternative form not used in current standard writing, except in certain compounds like gammeldans.

Gammel in Swedish has two origins, or perhaps only one. Old Swedish had gamal (m), gamul (f), gamalt (n), where u weakened into e, while a had greater ability to remain a, but sometimes weakened as well, so we get gammal/gammel m, gammel f, gammalt n.

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 21:05
by dEhiN
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Does the word gammel exist in Swedish?

It is an alternative form not used in current standard writing, except in certain compounds like gammeldans.

Gammel in Swedish has two origins, or perhaps only one. Old Swedish had gamal (m), gamul (f), gamalt (n), where u weakened into e, while a had greater ability to remain a, but sometimes weakened as well, so we get gammal/gammel m, gammel f, gammalt n.

So what is the current standard or common form? Gammal?

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 21:10
by Jurgen Wullenwever
dEhiN wrote:So what is the current standard or common form? Gammal?

den är gammal, det är gammalt, de är gamla
kompareras gammal äldre äldst
den gamle mannen, den gamla kvinnan

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 21:18
by dEhiN
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:den är gammal, det är gammalt, de är gamla
kompareras gammal äldre äldst
den gamle mannen, den gamla kvinnan

I realized that the same inflections are listed on Wiktionary. But they break things down into indefinite/attributative and definite. I take it indefinite/attributative is used when gammal follows the verb, like in your first line. And definite is used when gammal comes in front of a noun, like in your second line? If so, then would I say gamla kvinnorna?

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 21:29
by Jurgen Wullenwever
dEhiN wrote:would I say gamla kvinnorna?

du behöver en framförställd bestämd artikel: de gamla kvinnorna

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-26, 22:06
by dEhiN
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
dEhiN wrote:would I say gamla kvinnorna?

du behöver en framförställd bestämd artikel: de gamla kvinnorna

Okej, tack så mycket Jurgen!

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-28, 20:07
by dEhiN
Can bröd be singular as in ett bröd? If so, does that refer to "a piece of bread" or "a loaf of bread"? Wiktionary shows, under declension, both a singular and plural indefinite as well as definite nominative form:

bröd - sing.indef.
brödet - sing.def.
bröd - pl.indef.
bröden - pl.def.


Tack!

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-28, 21:13
by Jurgen Wullenwever
Våra faktiska uttal skiljer sig från skriftens.
ett brö
dä bröt/dä bröde
två brön
dom bröna
Vad formerna sedan innebär är klurigare. Ett bröd är nog ett helt bröd, och inte bara en skiva av det.

Re: dEhiN's Swedish Thread

Posted: 2017-01-28, 21:52
by Allekanger
dEhiN wrote:Can bröd be singular as in ett bröd? If so, does that refer to "a piece of bread" or "a loaf of bread"? Wiktionary shows, under declension, both a singular and plural indefinite as well as definite nominative form:

bröd - sing.indef.
brödet - sing.def.
bröd - pl.indef.
bröden - pl.def.


Tack!

Ett bröd to me means 'a kind of bread', but without the indefinite article it just means 'bread', like in English. The definite I guess means both 'the kind of bread' and 'the bread'. Bröden is usually 'the kind of breads' to me.

Jag provade baka ett nytt* bröd igår - det vart jättegott! - 'I tried this new* bread recipe yesterday - it turned out delicious!'

*nytt/'new', as in, 'it previously existed, but I wasn't aware of it until now'. I'm not good at translating idiomatically (or at all...), the English part might be off, sorry. :para:

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Våra faktiska uttal skiljer sig från skriftens.
ett brö
dä bröt/dä bröde
två brön
dom bröna

I don't think I've ever heard those forms and I bet they'd sound a bit dialectal to most people. I think the far most common way to pronounce it is the way it is also written: bröd, brödet, bröd, bröden.

Bröna to me is a slang term for 'breasts'...