Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Moderator: Johanna

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6558
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-25, 14:11

admin

I removed the off topic part and I trust everyone in this thread to not venture too far off into that direction again.

It's one thing to let a thread evolve in such a way in the General Language Forum, but this is the Swedish Forum, where it would be nice if the discussions were at least a little about or in that language. And a thread like this, which has a very clear subject, should definitely not go too off topic.

I know that the temptation to answer to pretty much anything you read on Unilang is a bit overwhelming for some of you, but please try to keep it in check in here.

And as usual, if anyone has got any questions, I'll be happy to answer them in a PM, but not here in the thread.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish r

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-05-25, 21:47

Johanna wrote: judging from what I've heard today, young people in Örebro seem to have that 'TV accent'...

Where did you hear what, more precisely?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6558
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish r

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-25, 22:10

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Johanna wrote: judging from what I've heard today, young people in Örebro seem to have that 'TV accent'...

Where did you hear what, more precisely?

One of those things at Arbetsförmedlingen, we watched some job interviews that a guy who lives there had recorded for educational purposes, and it was about a job in a shop, so it wasn't the most highly educated people who applied for it.

Sure the selection of people wasn't too big, but out of the bunch, those under 30 and from the area all spoke a very neutral Standard Swedish. I could never have guessed where they were from if they hadn't said it.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3073
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby TeneReef » 2014-05-26, 1:40

How was their tonal pattern? :mrgreen:
There is no single neutral Swedish tonal pattern, but at least 5-6 subtypes. :mrgreen:
There are one peaked grave accents (Southern Swedish, Dala, Gotland) and two peaked grave accents (Western, Northern, Central)...
Western Swedish has tones similar to Southeastern Norwegian, Central Swedish has a very unique realization of tones. :P
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति
learning in 2019: (no-nn)

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6558
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-26, 5:39

People think of this 'TV accent' as neutral, probably because very few people speak like that in real life, so in that sense it truly is neutral since you can't tell where that person is from at all.

But it's very much a Central Swedish one, except it keeps the Geatish -t that is still there in the written language but not in Central Swedish accents. Or well, that didn't use to be there in the latter, but since more and more people use spelling pronunciation, these days it's not uncommon to hear it from people who very obviously are not from Götaland.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-05-26, 18:01

How awful if true! :shock: The Oarabrogian accent that is so distinct, and one of the centres of the Gnellbeltian area, has it been lost? :cry: And we are Sweons! :evil:

(The accent from Gnällbältet is one of the least appreciated forms of Swedish, sort of like Sächsisch in Germany, and I wonder what English dialect that is regarded as similarly ridiculous and comical.)
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

Halfdan
Posts: 773
Joined: 2012-12-22, 5:41
Gender: male
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Halfdan » 2014-05-26, 18:21

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:How awful if true! :shock: The Oarabrogian accent that is so distinct, and one of the centres of the Gnellbeltian area, has it been lost? :cry: And we are Sweons! :evil:

(The accent from Gnällbältet is one of the least appreciated forms of Swedish, sort of like Sächsisch in Germany, and I wonder what English dialect that is regarded as similarly ridiculous and comical.)


Likely comparable to the West Country accents.

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 6248
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby dEhiN » 2014-05-26, 20:07

Johanna wrote:...but since more and more people use spelling pronunciation...


Did the pronunciation used to vary greatly from the orthography? I suppose it depended on the specific word?
My TAC for 2019.

(en-ca) (ta-lk) (fr) (es) (en_old)

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-05-26, 21:27

dEhiN wrote:Did the pronunciation used to vary greatly from the orthography?

Yes. Some words were said as written, such as sten, but in other cases not. Compare these sentences as they are spelt and as they should be spelt if phonemic when I say them:

<Vad är det med det då?>
/Va ä rä mä dä rå?/

<Hur är det med dig idag?>
/Hur ä rä mä rä ida?/

<Jag har köpt några nya träd till trädgården.>
/Ja a köpe nåra nya trän te trägårn./
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 6248
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby dEhiN » 2014-05-27, 23:31

Wow, I didn't realize Swedish pronunciation would be this complex. I honestly thought that, given Swedish as a native language is spoken in a relatively small geographical area, it would be fairly straightforward!
My TAC for 2019.

(en-ca) (ta-lk) (fr) (es) (en_old)

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3073
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby TeneReef » 2014-05-28, 20:06

dEhiN wrote:Wow, I didn't realize Swedish pronunciation would be this complex. I honestly thought that, given Swedish as a native language is spoken in a relatively small geographical area, it would be fairly straightforward!


Dialectal variations are by no means dictated by country size:
1) Slovenia: small country, extreme variations between dialects
2) Russia: large country, pretty uniform language-wise

Norway is smaller than Sweden but has a much more complex linguistic (dialects) and sociolinguistic (norms) situation.
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति
learning in 2019: (no-nn)

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6558
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-28, 20:48

How 'regular' the pronunciation is depends on in what way different dialects differ, how deep the orthography is, and whether or not they are balanced; it has nothing to do with the size of the language.

Spanish is a big language with an orthography that fits most varieties for example. English is a big language whose orthography is a real mess (and very deep), but you can't really simplify it since it's pretty much impossible to reform it without leaving out at least one national variety.

Swedish is somewhere between English and Spanish when it comes to this, the problem is that we're taught to think of it more like Spanish, when in reality it's not.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-05-29, 0:28

dEhiN wrote:Wow, I didn't realize Swedish pronunciation would be this complex.

We have only just started, so we have not touched on many things, but is there something in particular that seems strange so far?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 6248
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby dEhiN » 2014-05-30, 4:13

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Wow, I didn't realize Swedish pronunciation would be this complex.

We have only just started, so we have not touched on many things, but is there something in particular that seems strange so far?


Nothing seems strange to me. I figured Swedish, like any language, would have some consonant clusters. I didn't quite expect there to be a unique pronunciation for each long and short vowel. But I think mostly I didn't expect there to be so much dialectical variation. After all the discussion about dialect pronunciations, I'm kinda confused on which pronunciation I should learn and stick with for the vowel sounds.
My TAC for 2019.

(en-ca) (ta-lk) (fr) (es) (en_old)

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-30, 8:06

dEhiN wrote:I didn't quite expect there to be a unique pronunciation for each long and short vowel.
That's the norm for Germanic languages.
But I think mostly I didn't expect there to be so much dialectical variation. After all the discussion about dialect pronunciations, I'm kinda confused on which pronunciation I should learn and stick with for the vowel sounds.
The standard, probably.

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3073
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby TeneReef » 2014-05-30, 13:38

There are many variations even within the standard,
in some idiolects short a [a] is close to [æ ] (tilbaka), while in some idiolects long a (ɑ) is close to [ ɒ], or is even higher and even more rounded. Long [i] has a new buzzy variant [ɨz] [Viby-i Lidingö-i ] which spread like rapid fire and is resisted only by some men.

Furthermore,
according to Tomas Riad in ''Phonology of Swedish''

there is neutralization of the two main short
allophones of /e/ and /ɛ/, as [ɛ̝ ]. This results in eight short vowel allophones to
match the nine long vowel allophones. Historically, this neutralization is a
development in Central Swedish, and many dialects have nine long vowels and
nine short vowels . Morphophonologically
caused length alternations and the patterning in unstressed syllables preclude a
merger of these phonemes, see 2.2.4. A similar situation of neutralization actually
holds for short /ø/ and short /ʉ/ in some varieties of Central Swedish, where some
speakers have neutralization as [ɵ]...

In unstressed position, the vowel /e/ is variably rendered in pronunciation
dictionaries. In part the variation is positional, in part idiolectal. Central Swedish
is based on dialects in the Svealand region, which is north of both the South and
Go¨ta areas of Sweden. Schwa is regular only in southern varieties.
Nevertheless,
the IPA symbol [ə] is still often used also for Central Swedish /e/, in unstressed
syllables following primary stress Here, we shall however use [ɛ̝] for unstressed /e/ in this position.
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति
learning in 2019: (no-nn)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 6248
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby dEhiN » 2014-05-30, 14:15

If there are variations within the standard, I feel confused on how to proceed. Mind you, I haven't felt confused by dialectal differences in the other languages I'm learning. But I suppose that's mostly because at the very beginning, when I was learning the sounds of the language, I generally learned via a language exchange partner or friend. And then I more-or-less stuck to that particular pronunciation. Then it was only a matter of learning to understand other dialects and pronunciation variations.

I think by participating in a linguistic discussion about Swedish phonology before actually having fully learned a particular pronunciation variation, I've now overwhelmed myself! So maybe, as far as my learning Swedish goes,I'll stick to the pronunciation taught in the lessons on Livemocha.
My TAC for 2019.

(en-ca) (ta-lk) (fr) (es) (en_old)

User avatar
Johanna
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6558
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Johanna » 2014-05-30, 15:37

I wouldn't worry about getting the exact pronunciation of vowels right for one single accent, since when you've got rid of all the other things that betray that you're not a native speaker, you will most likely have picked up an accent along the way without thinking :)

Not to mention that a lot of Swedes don't have a 'clean' accent anyway since you usually don't have to move very far for there to be those subtle differences, and these days it's quite common not to stay your entire life in the place where you were born ;)

Otherwise, the standard pronunciation is usually said to be this:

a - [ɑː], [ä]
e - [eː], [ɛ]
i - [iː], [ɪ]
o - [uː], [ʊ]
u - [ʉ̟ː], [ɵ]
y - [yː], [ʏ]
å - [oː], [ɔ]
ä - [ɛː], [ɛ]
ö - [øː], [œ]


Going by how Swedes think of the pronunciation of these vowels because of the letters' names in the alphabet. But as you probably already know, ⟨o⟩ can be /oː/, /ɔ/ too.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-05-30, 16:37

dEhiN wrote:But I think mostly I didn't expect there to be so much dialectical variation. After all the discussion about dialect pronunciations, I'm kinda confused on which pronunciation I should learn and stick with for the vowel sounds.

The dialectal variation is VERY small these days, so you do not have to bother about local differences, since they are mostly in intonation of sentences. You do have to decide between Southern Swedish (Scanian) and Central Swedish, but I suppose you are heading for Central Swedish.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

User avatar
Jurgen Wullenwever
Posts: 2854
Joined: 2009-04-10, 19:32
Gender: male
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Swedish Pronunciation [formerly 'Swedish r']

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2014-05-30, 17:16

TeneReef wrote:long [i] has a new buzzy variant [ɨz] [Viby-i Lidingö-i ] which spread like rapid fire and is resisted only by some men.

Something that is often heard in radio and television, is that this /i/ and the diphthong /äj/ are pronounced the same, so they have apparently merged.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)


Return to “Swedish (Svenska)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest