Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

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Johanna
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-01-08, 20:49

TeneReef wrote: :shock: Is this video for real? :hmm:

Yep :) In some cases it sounds a bit exaggerated though, but I guess that's due to the unnatural situation.

I say it that way myself actually, although it might be a family thing because of my Norrlandic heritage, but I've never met any Swede who didn't understand it.

By the way, we're not even the worst about this in the Nordic countries, the Faroese say entire sentences while inhaling :P
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Marah » 2015-01-08, 20:57

TeneReef wrote: :shock: Is this video for real? :hmm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URgdIAz4QNg#t=48

It doesn't shock me that much. In Spain, where I go at least, people often say "sss" to say "sí". :)
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-24, 3:01

Hello everybody.
What's the tone (other than the correct phonemic transcription) in:
<Nohlgren> (/nu:lgre:n/?),
<Kjelmer> (/çεlmər/?),
<Kökeritz> (/kø:kərits/?)?

Thank you very much in advance.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-01-24, 11:50

Nohlgren is bisyllabic/grave, while Kjelmer and Köker- are monosyllabic/acute, accentwise. The -itz forms a new stressed syllable, unless the word is pronounced acute grave 'kök,rits.

Names such as these are not ideal when talking about stress patterns, since most people have never heard them (I haven't). But that might be just why you ask.
Last edited by Jurgen Wullenwever on 2015-01-25, 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-25, 3:42

Ok, thank you (tak!) Jurgen. I expected also Kökeritz had the bysillabic/grave/tone 2 pattern.
Should I then expect the grave tone pattern for every family name where word composition is evident? Like in (anything)+gren, (anything)+kvist, (anything)+lund, (anything)+man... ?

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Allekanger » 2015-01-25, 11:00

Interesting. I have the acute accent on all of the names mentioned above (as with No´rdgren, Lu´ndkvist, Be´rgman, Li´ndström etc). Names with -lund do however get a grave accent (Be`rglund).

I also use the acute accent on some first names where other people apparently use the grave accent (Eri´ka, Cari´na, Mari´a). This is very evident in the name Helena, where the two different pronunciations make up two different names to me: Hele´na being the name my mother's relative and Hele`na the name of one of my friends. Funny things.
Når trollmora lagt di elva små trolla å bunde fast dom i svansen
Då sjunger o sakta för elva små trolla di vackresta orl o känner
O aj aj aj aj buff...


- svenska, English, español, 日本語, eesti keel, saemien gïele, kalaallisut.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-01-25, 11:10

Bergman and other -man are acute for me.

Allekanger wrote:Interesting. I have the acute accent on all of the names mentioned above (as with No´rdgren, Lu´ndkvist, Be´rgman, Li´ndström etc)

That sounds Norrlandic or something similar to me.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Allekanger » 2015-01-25, 11:35

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:That sounds Norrlandic or something similar to me.

My family's from Norduppland (and Roslagen), so I guess it's not too surprising. People have commented on my "norrländska" before, but I personally don't think I sound at all like someone from Norrland.
Når trollmora lagt di elva små trolla å bunde fast dom i svansen
Då sjunger o sakta för elva små trolla di vackresta orl o känner
O aj aj aj aj buff...


- svenska, English, español, 日本語, eesti keel, saemien gïele, kalaallisut.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-25, 15:37

Ok, so my inference was in any case wrong.
Thank you for your interesting remarks. If you guys, or anybody else, have anything to add, I'm curious to learn more about it.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-01-26, 16:44

One comment might be appropriate: these tonemes or stress patterns or whatever they may be called, are not that big a deal. A second-language-speaker of Swedish with a heavy foreign accent does not have to bother with them as they do not change the meaning or anything, it is just the particular way we first-language-speakers talk. It is much more important to know where the main stress is in a word, since a faulty pronunciation there lessens understanding.

In addition, I think the acute and grave accents are realised differently in the various regiolects, at least I have read that they are. In mine Western Maelardalian (or Gnellbeltian) post-dialectal Nercian speech the acute or monosyllabic accent means that the second vowel is mute, while the grave or bisyllabic accent means that the second vowel is pronounced.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-26, 19:02

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:One comment might be appropriate: these tonemes or stress patterns or whatever they may be called, are not that big a deal. A second-language-speaker of Swedish with a heavy foreign accent does not have to bother with them as they do not change the meaning or anything, it is just the particular way we first-language-speakers talk. It is much more important to know where the main stress is in a word, since a faulty pronunciation there lessens understanding.

I've myself read that failing or avoiding to respect the proper tonemes doesn't impair the communication.
I'm more interested in the native distribution of the stress patterns. (Other than curious to discover the appropriate ones in some person names).

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:In addition, I think the acute and grave accents are realised differently in the various regiolects, at least I have read that they are. In mine Western Maelardalian (or Gnellbeltian) post-dialectal Nercian speech the acute or monosyllabic accent means that the second vowel is mute, while the grave or bisyllabic accent means that the second vowel is pronounced.

Thus, if you have a word like <Närke> you usually pronounce it /'nεrk/? And also with a word like <Knivsta> -> /'kni:vst/? And if I rightly understood, <Knut(s)son> & <Knudsen> might become homophonous: /'knʉ:tsn̩ /, I suppose(?)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-01-26, 20:11

gfl87 wrote:Thus, if you have a word like <Närke> you usually pronounce it /'nεrk/? And also with a word like <Knivsta> -> /'kni:vst/? And if I rightly understood, <Knut(s)son> & <Knudsen> might become homophonous: /'knʉ:tsn̩ /, I suppose(?)

I might be partially wrong, then. :oops: Or maybe not. The end-schwa in Närke is very weak and almost lost in the aspiration after k.

Otherwise, in -son the vowel is clearly audible and not as weak as in -s(e)n. Knutsson and Knudsen are not homophonous in current Standard Swedish, as the stress, the t/d and the ô/(e) are different in pronunciation.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-26, 20:36

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:I might be partially wrong, then. :oops:

Haha, I'm just asking: you definitely know more than I do! ;)

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Or maybe not. The end-schwa in Närke is very weak and almost lost in the aspiration after k.

It's probably a devoiced schwa. Something like /'nεrkə/ [-kə̥ ~ -kh].
Do other final vowels reduce too: /'kni:vsta/ -> /'kni:vstə/, &c? Or do they devoice?

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Otherwise, in -son the vowel is clearly audible and not as weak as in -s(e)n. Knutsson and Knudsen are not homophonous in current Standard Swedish, as the stress, the t/d and the ô/(e) are different in pronunciation.

Yes, in Standar Swedish they're of course different. I was trying to guess about your accent. :)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby NickPR » 2015-01-26, 21:17

Do you really distinguish /t/ from /d/ before /s/? Standard Eastern Norwegian doesn't bother with that (at least according to Vanvik's Norsk Uttaleordbok).

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-26, 21:35

NickPR wrote:Do you really distinguish /t/ from /d/ before /s/? Standard Eastern Norwegian doesn't bother with that (at least according to Vanvik's Norsk Uttaleordbok).

(As far as I know, ususally they don't; but in careful speach it's possible to do it. <Knudsen> /knʉ:tsen/ or /knʉ:dsen/)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-01-26, 23:26

NickPR wrote:Do you really distinguish /t/ from /d/ before /s/?

That depends on the circumstances. The more bookish something is, the greater the risk of clearer pronunciation, and a foreign name like Knudsen risks being treated bookishly since we don't have our own pronunciation, and this is especially the case here, as I read the name first, and then try to say it, or imagine saying it.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-01-26, 23:41

Most Swedes would try to pronounce Knudsen a bit softer than Knutsson, but that's about it.

No wonder though, Knudsen and Knutsson are the same name after all, it's just that the former spelling works better with Danish phonology, and the latter with Swedish. But then again, there is a difference between -sen and -son pronunciation-wise in today's Swedish.
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-27, 4:02

Johanna wrote:But then again, there is a difference between -sen and -son pronunciation-wise in today's Swedish.

Indeed I remark I was just trying to understand whether there is a possibility of dia/regio/socio-lectal coalescence into a single (reduced) pronunciation, or not. ;)

I also noticed that there are some minor inconsistencies between the Duden Aussprachewörterbuch and Norstedts Svenska Uttalslexikon, for example: <Sundman> has grave/bisyll. pattern in the first, but acute/monosyll. in the second.
I suppose the second one must be the more reliable (it's also consistent with Jurgen's
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Bergman and other -man are acute for me.
:y: ); I noticed other inaccuracies in English too in Duden Aussprachewörterbuch before.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby NickPR » 2015-01-27, 4:37

Thanks.

Johanna wrote:Most Swedes would try to pronounce Knudsen a bit softer than Knutsson, but that's about it.

So it's a fortis-lenis distinction: /ts/ [ts], /ds/ [d̥s].

If I'm not mistaken, the distinction would be more obvious in Danish, at least when unstressed: /ts/ [d̥s], /ds/ [ð̞s]

gfl87 wrote:I noticed other inaccuracies in English too in Duden Aussprachewörterbuch before.

For English, Longman Pronunciation Dictionary and Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary are much more reliable than DA, they also provide multiple transcriptions for many words. For Swedish, there also exists Svenska språknämndens uttalsordbok (which you didn't mention).

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-01-27, 12:33

NickPR wrote:So it's a fortis-lenis distinction: /ts/ [ts], /ds/ [d̥s].

I reckon it's very probably so. :y:

NickPR wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the distinction would be more obvious in Danish, at least when unstressed: /ts/ [d̥s], /ds/ [ð̞s]

I don't think [ð̞s] exists in Danish, as in <ds> the <d> is actually a silent grapheme.

NickPR wrote:For English, Longman Pronunciation Dictionary and Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary are much more reliable than DA, they also provide multiple transcriptions for many words.

Of course I use those ones for the English language. But consulting the DA, it occurred I found some little flaws with the English transcriptions. ;)

NickPR wrote:For Swedish, there also exists Svenska språknämndens uttalsordbok (which you didn't mention).

I bought it, but there are practically no person names in it! :cry:


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