Silent letters in Swedish

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 19:24

Dingbats wrote:Har du verkligen [z] för /j/? Helt utan tydliga sekundärartikulationer?


I vissa lägen blir det [z]. Ett [ʝ] går väldigt lätt över till [z], tydligen, om jag inte missbedömer saken. Det beror bara på om initialt /j/ realiseras som palatalt [ʝ] eller alveolart [z]. Möjligen säger jag [ɨzʉːβrɛ] med någon sorts samuttalat initialt [ɨz], men det rör sig om ett ljud.

Skillnaden kan åtminstone delvis ha att göra med om ljudet följs av främre eller bakre vokal.

Vad menar du med sekundärartikulationer?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 19:36

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Vad menar du med sekundärartikulationer?

Palatalisering, velarisering, labialisering, etc.

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 19:39

Dingbats wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Vad menar du med sekundärartikulationer?

Palatalisering, velarisering, labialisering, etc.


Oh, I have never really been into that sort of thing. :oops: (I usually play it rough.)
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Ceresz » 2011-09-17, 19:53

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:To save yourself, you might lower your ambitions somewhat and keep the more elaborate transcriptions to a minimum. In my experience they take ages to write, and ages to see the mistakes. It is only about silent letters anyway.

køːʈ (Perhaps a tj? And do you actually have this halfhigh vowel? An elder generation sometimes has it, but younger folks often speak with a lower vowel.)

<ʋeshawar> (I do not know anything of this name, so I would have a p.)

väga -vikt
slag - släkte - släkt

Those were earlier written vigt slägte slägt, and would you regard them as having a g or a k?

Fine, I'll write [k] instead of "devoiced [g]".

No, that was a mistake. It should be [ɕœ̞ːʈ].

I expected a few mistakes in there.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 19:55

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:"Djuret i trädgården ser inte riktigt friskt ut."
jure i trägårn ser nte réktit frist ut
[zʉːβrɛɨːtrɛgoːɳɕeːɳʈɛʑektɨtfrɨstʉːβt]

(D)jure(t) i trä(d)går(de)n ser (i)nte rikti(g)t fris(k)t ut.

Perhaps you can hear it on this link:
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=37d26109a7644f1c&resid=37D26109A7644F1C!110
Please note that this was not natural speech but just a reading, without normal emphasis on the proper places in order to convey whatever meaning you intend.

(And I sound ridiculous. :oops: )
Last edited by Jurgen Wullenwever on 2011-09-17, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Hunef » 2011-09-17, 19:57

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:väga -vikt
slag - släkte - släkt

Those were earlier written vigt slägte slägt, and would you regard them as having a g or a k?
The words vikt, släkte and släkt are Low German, aren't they? If they'd been "native" words they'd been *vätt, *slätte and *slätt, respectively. (Note the Old Norse words vætt 'weight' and sletta 'slap'.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 20:18

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Please note that this was not natural speech but just a reading, without normal emphasis on the proper places in order to convey whatever meaning you intend.

(And I sound ridiculous. :oops: )

Wow, that's weird. :? That really is plain [z]. I've never heard that before.

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 21:51

Dingbats wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Please note that this was not natural speech but just a reading, without normal emphasis on the proper places in order to convey whatever meaning you intend.

(And I sound ridiculous. :oops: )

Wow, that's weird. :? That really is plain [z]. I've never heard that before.

Perhaps I am the only one with this pronunciation. I can say it with a more normal j as well, so it is not necessarily a widespread phenomenon, but I obviously speak Oarabrogian, so if it exists, it is to be found there.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Ceresz » 2011-09-17, 22:57

Dingbats wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Please note that this was not natural speech but just a reading, without normal emphasis on the proper places in order to convey whatever meaning you intend.

(And I sound ridiculous. :oops: )

Wow, that's weird. :? That really is plain [z]. I've never heard that before.

Neither have I :para:.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-18, 8:21

Another problem is that there is a vast difference between styles, when it comes to the amount of silent letters. They are most frequent in lower-style speech, and rarely occur in a literary lecturing style, such as this small passage from Gunnar Myrdal's (he was the father of Jan Myrdal) Hur styrs landet?:
Nu är stadsplanen lagd under hård kontroll och många hus
skyddade som kulturhus. En lång tid var vi bekymrade, hur vi skulle finna
medel för att restaurera byggnaderna som genomgående fortfarande
var förslummade. Men sedan en tid sker det på privat väg. Och
drivkraften har till stor del varit inflationen, som gjort det till en
lönande spekulation. Visserligen anser jag inflationen som en
kräftskada i samhället och ett fördärvligt resultat av vår misslyckade
krispolitik, som jag får anledning att återkomma till i andra delen av boken.
Men i detta alldeles speciella hänseende har den onekligen haft en
nyttig bieffekt.

Nu ä(r) stadsplanen lagd under hård kontroll o(ch) många hus
skyddade som kulturhus. En lång tid va(r) vi bekymrade, hur vi skulle finna
medel för a(tt) restaurera byggnaderna som genomgående fortfarande
va(r) förslummade. Men sedan en tid sker det på privat väg. O(ch)
drivkraften har ti(ll) stor del vari(t) inflationen, som gjort de(t) ti(ll) en
lönande spekulation. Visserligen anser ja(g) inflationen som en
kräftskada i samhället och ett fördärvli(g)t resultat av vår misslyckade
krispolitik, som ja(g) får anledning a(tt) återkomma ti(ll) i andra delen av boken.
Men i detta alldeles speciella hänseende har den onekligen haft en
nyttig bieffekt.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-18, 8:44

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Another problem is that there is a vast difference between styles, when it comes to the amount of silent letters

What do you mean "problem"?

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-18, 8:57

Dingbats wrote:What do you mean "problem"?

If someone is inclined to ascertain whether a letter is silent or not, that person faces an insurmountable obstacle of different usages, ranging from pronouncing almost everything (as above), even if the most faulty ortho-epical spelling-pronunciations are disregarded, down to actual speech, where leaving out half a sentence is not uncommon.

What I mean is, that it is hard to get away from having silent letters, in our present situation. Not that the current spelling is the best possible solution. There are many words that could lose some letters without any undue complications.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby derevon » 2011-09-18, 9:11

Uttalar du verkligen inte "ll" i "till" när ordet efter är "i"?

"Återkomma ti i"?
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-18, 9:33

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:What I mean is, that it is hard to get away from having silent letters, in our present situation.

Then I agree.

derevon wrote:Uttalar du verkligen inte "ll" i "till" när ordet efter är "i"?

"Återkomma ti i"?

Det gör nog jag oftast. "Jag ber å få åtekomma ti imorron".

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-18, 10:11

derevon wrote:Uttalar du verkligen inte "ll" i "till" när ordet efter är "i"?

"Återkomma ti i"?

I say <till> [te:] when stressed and [te] when unstressed. And this also when it is a prefix.

(You would probably refer to [te] as [tɪ], but presently I avoid that sign since it seems as if the usage of i-signs is turned around in Swedish IPA compared with English and French.)

The vowel in till in my speech is not /i/ since that would be [ɨ].
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Grytolle » 2011-09-21, 15:43

Orka skriva på engelska i en diskussion som är av sån liten relevans för dem som inte kan svenska än...

I claimed recently that the Swedish spelling contains as many silent letters as the French spelling. I have not counted them, so it might not be exactly true, but they are many.

Men på franska utelämnar man i princip systematiskt sista bokstaven...

The verb conjugation -a -ar -ade -at -ad/-at is really only -a -ar -a -a -ad/-at.

-a, -ar, -a, -at, -ad/-at/-ade

lägga lägger lade lagt lagt/lagd

`lɛg:a lɛg:ər, lɑ: lak:t

ha har hade haft havd/havt

(h)ɑ: (h)ɑ:r (h)`ad:ə (h)af:t, (h)av:d/(h)af:t

jag skulle skippa "ə" framför vokaler om jag talade fort
h uttalar jag vid betoning eller efter en paus

vara, är, var, varit

vɑ: ɛ: vɑ: var:t (orkar inte slå upp hur retroflexerna noteras)

jag skulle utan problem kunna betona kortformerna (alltså inte `vɑ:ra eller `vɑ:rit)

The g is often silent in endings, such as <-ig -lig -ligen> /-i -li -lien/.

Jo, fast jag skulle uttala g i till exempel "mig veterligen" /'mɛj: `ʋe:tərli:gən/ och "säkerligen!" /`sɛ:kərli:gən/

The pronoun <något något några> is /nån nåt/nå/någe nåra/ (or nô- but the vowel quality is not the topic of this thread)

nɔn: nɔ/nɔt: `no:ra

"någe" låter helt normalt men jag tror inte att jag använder det själv

Vrida was vri, göra was gö and so on, in real unadulterated Swedish speech, but such forms are seldom heard today.

Jag har ett egendomligt minne av att min kusin sa "gö" ett tag när han bodde i Västerås


Other particles often have silent letters:
<och> /å/
<det> /dä/

Jag säger /de:/ om jag betonar ordet, annars /dɛ/
Min nederländskalärare (en svenska) i Göteborg sa /de:/, men /dɛ:/ vid högläsning. Härligt tvärtemot!

<att> /å/ (infinitive marker), not the subjunction (?) att which is fully pronounced.

Jupps.

<god> /go/

gu: gɔt: `gu:a

<vid> /ve/ preposition

/vɪ/ eller /ve/, ja

som partikel skulle jag säkerligen säga /vi:(d)/: ta vid sig

<hammaren> /hammarn/
<djuret> /jure/

jo, förutom att jag oftast uttalar -t
till min skam uttalar jag -e- rätt ofta i -aren och dylika fall

till

preposition: tɪ/te
partikel: til:/te: (oftast till)
skulle nog uttala l framför vokal ganska ofta, jo

till
<med> /mä/ (preposition and prefix), /mé/ (noun) plural /mé(d)ar/

preposition/partikel: mɛ(:)
prefix: me:d (medarbetare)
substantivet känner jag bara till i plural, men rent känslomässigt skulle jag fabricera singularen "mede"

For me "e" in "vatten" for sure isn't silent, and I'm sure that for a vast majority of Swedes it isn't either. I generally don't drop those word-inital "h" either.

e:et uttalar jag, men jag skulle definitivt utelämna h i många fall (inte bara i funktionsord för den delen)

As for "körkort" I think I tend to drop the "r".

Jag uttalar det med färgat ö, så man vet att det är ett r där.. fast sån jättetydlig uttalsskillnad gör jag inte

tills

alltid /tis/, men jag tycker /tɛs/ låter rätt normalt med

[jʉːɹə ɪ tɹe̞gːɔɳ ʂeːntə ɹɪktɪt fɹɪsʲːt ʉt], or something like it. That palatalisation on the [s] is an approximation of what that disappearing /k/ tends to cause.

Då har man lärt sig nått idag med då! :mrgreen: Coola grejor!

"Jag har inte sett något" I would usually pronounce "Ja:nte sett nåt"

Note that ser inte [seː.n̩t] is pronounced with a syllabic n.

Precis!
`jɑn:tə sɛt: nɔn: (varvid ɑ mot slutet palataliseras en smula på väg mot n:et)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-21, 16:01

Yep, I'm never learning Swedish.
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Reinder » 2011-09-21, 16:02

Chekhov wrote:Yep, I'm never learning Swedish.

Swedish is so cute, just listen to it, and you'll fall in love with it! =D
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Chekhov » 2011-09-21, 16:27

I've heard it plenty before and even tried to learn some, but the differences between the spoken and written language were too much of a pain. Arabic has a similar problem.
吾が舞へば、麗し女、酔ひにけり
吾が舞へば、照る月、響むなり

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Ceresz » 2011-09-21, 20:28

If we could manage to learn English, then I'm sure you could learn Swedish :P.
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