Silent letters in Swedish

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Jurgen Wullenwever
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Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 6:24

I claimed recently that the Swedish spelling contains as many silent letters as the French spelling. I have not counted them, so it might not be exactly true, but they are many.

We can start this discussion with a recent statement:
ケビン wrote:Kanske blir jag förvirrad pga att jag varken uttalar -de eller -t:

Somna [ˈsɔmna]
Somnade [ˈsɔmna]
Somnat [ˈsɔmna]

The verb conjugation -a -ar -ade -at -ad/-at is really only -a -ar -a -a -ad/-at.

Somnar is thus: somna somnar somnade somnat somnad/somnat, where the past tenses are similar to the infinitive, making <-de> and <-t> silent. In the past participle, somnat, the t is well pronounced, but that grammatical form "är somnat" is more literary and not as frequent in normal speech as "har somnat" (for this particular verb it might not occur at all, except in extended forms, such as "avsomnat").

I can admit that the written form easily makes its way into speech when giving emphasis to the word, but in real slurred speech the endings here are shortened, and as this is the most frequent conjugation, it has a vast impact on the number of silent letters.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 6:44

For another verb, lägga lägger lade lagt lagt/lagd, the form lade is only la.

(The supine form might be very different from lagt as well, in the spoken language, where a new supine is often formed in analogy to the infinitive and present, but we might save that for another time.)

The verb
hava haver havde haft havd/havt
has been officially shortened into
ha har hade haft havd/havt,
but this is often pronounced
a a ade aft,
with h-loss, and r-loss. The form hade was earlier ha with a long vowel, in analogy with lade/la above, but that seems to have been completely lost in current speech, where we say it as hadde, where the vowel a is short.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 7:03

The verb of all verbs is vara, and here many forms are worn down.

<vara är var varit>
/va ä va vare (Sweonic) - vart (Geatic)/

The r is lost except in the supine, and another notable thing is the supine ending -it as it pertains to many other verbs, where always one letter is silent, although wich one depends on your regiolect, so the Sweons keep the vowel, and the Geats keep the consonant.

To complicate this situation, there are some similar words that behave differently.
The is a noun vara that is pronounced vara, and another verb vara-varar-varade-varat that follows the rules for the ar-ade-conjugation mentioned in the first post above.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 7:29

An r at the end of a word is often lost, and then I do not mean when it combines with the following cononant to form a Swedish supradental, but in other cases, such as körkort which in Central Swedish rather is kökort, but perhaps Southern Swedish keeps the r. (?)

The g is often silent in endings, such as <-ig -lig -ligen> /-i -li -lien/.

The pronoun <något något några> is /nån nåt/nå/någe nåra/ (or nô- but the vowel quality is not the topic of this thread).

Many words have and have had shortened forms, although this often is offset by spelling pronunciations today, so you can hear the most astounding barbaric neologisms due to the spelling.

Vrida was vri, göra was and so on, in real unadulterated Swedish speech, but such forms are seldom heard today. :(

Other particles often have silent letters:
<och> /å/
<det> /dä/
<att> /å/ (infinitive marker), not the subjunction (?) att which is fully pronounced.

Anther often silent letter is d:
<god> /go/
<vid> /ve/ preposition - /vi(d)/ adjective
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 7:37

The definitive article tends to contain some silent letters, alternating between the vowel and the consonant. I am not familiar with Geatic practices here, so I can only judge by the Sweonic usage.

<hammaren> /hammarn/
<djuret> /jure/
(Here it can also be noted that some lettercombinations, dj, lj, hj, and so on, have been retained in the spelling for a few words, and add to the number of silent letters.)
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 7:42

A word like <vatten> is still pronounced according to the medieval spelling vatn, so the e is silent there as well.

Another very frequent particle, <till> is /té/.

Another homograph:
<med> /mä/ (preposition and prefix), /mé/ (noun) plural /mé(d)ar/
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 8:23

Here it might be appropriate to give a small text as an example. It was written by Jan Myrdal, a Swedish leftist author, that has allowed all his works to be put in the public domain, while he is still alive. Ur "Indien väntar", page 11.

Den 16 december 1979 kom vi åter till Indien. Vi hade flugit hela
natten. Himlen över Delhi var silvrigt vinterdisig. Luften var sval och
hade en sträv smak av damm och bränd kospillning.

Denna söndagsmorgon kom vi för elfte gången till Indien. Hit har vi
kommit med båt, hit har vi flugit. Två gånger har vi kört hit. Här har
vi tillbringat nästan femtio månader. Det har gått mer än tjugoett år
sedan vi kom första gången. Det är nästan en mansålder. Då hade vi
kört ut från Peshawar tidigt en morgon under senmonsunen 1958 och
allt var nytt...


Den 16 december 1979 kom vi åter ti(ll) Indien. Vi (h)ade flugi(t) (h)ela
natt(e)n. Himlen över Delhi va(r) silvri(g)t vint(e)rdisi(g). Luft(e)n va(r) sval o(ch)
(h)ade en sträv smak av damm o(ch) bränd kospillning.

Denna sönda(g)smor(g)on kom vi för elfte gång(e)n ti(ll) Indien. Hit (h)a(r) vi
kommi(t) me(d) båt, hit (h)a(r) vi flugi(t). Två gång(e)r (h)a(r) vi kört hit. Här (h)a(r)
vi ti(ll)bringat nästan femti(o) måna(de)r. De(t) (h)a(r) gått mer än tju(go)ett år
se(da)n vi kom första gång(e)n. De(t) ä(r) nästan en mansåld(e)r. Då (h)ade vi
kört ut från Peshawar tidi(g)t en mor(g)on under senmonsunen 1958 o(ch)
allt va(r) nytt...

<av> is å(v) in real but nowadays seldom heard speech, so I did not mark that word here

d is of course silent in "bränd kospillning" but pronounced in other environments, so I did not mark it.

Someone else might pronounce more of the h:s, but I marked them according to my speech if I do not stress the words.

Senmonsunen is hard to give a worn-off homely Swedish pronunciation here, since it is a little too foreign, otherwise we would have *senmonsun(en) instead, similar to station(en).
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 8:34

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:A word like <vatten> is still pronounced according to the medieval spelling vatn, so the e is silent there as well.

There is at least a schwa there for most speakers, I would say.

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 8:43

Dingbats wrote:There is at least a schwa there for most speakers, I would say.

Perhaps in Eastern Maelardalian, but in these details I have to judge by Western Maelardalian (or Gnellbeltian), since that is what I speak, and what others speak around here.

It was not a major point anyway.

And it is a thread for discussion, not for stating any absolute truths.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 10:04

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Gnellbeltian

:lol:

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby derevon » 2011-09-17, 12:31

For me "e" in "vatten" for sure isn't silent, and I'm sure that for a vast majority of Swedes it isn't either. I generally don't drop those word-inital "h" either.

As for "somnade" I would usually pronounce it "somna" (I would probably only pronounce "de" if I tried to pronounce something extra clearly for some reason, e.g. if I was speaking to a person who doesn't speak Swedish very well). I would never drop the "t" in "har somnat", however. I would never drop "ll" in "tillbringat" either.

"Hammaren" I would pronounce "hammarn". As for "körkort" I think I tend to drop the "r". I would never drop "de" in "månader", though. Aside from the differences mentioned above I guess I pretty much agree with everything. For sure we drop a lot of letters in Swedish. For example, "Jag har inte sett något" I would usually pronounce "Ja:nte sett nåt".

I'm from Vänersborg in Västergötland (at the southern tip of Vänern for those who don't know).
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Ceresz » 2011-09-17, 14:50

Dingbats wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Gnellbeltian

:lol:

+1

Anyway, here's my pronunciation:

Lägga, lägger, lade, lagt, lagt/lagd
[lɛga | lɛgər | lɑː | lag̥t | lagd]

If it's too hard to see the voiceless diacritic, then <lagt> is pretty much [lakt].

Ha, har, hade, haft
[hɑː | hɑː(r) | hadə | haft]

No h-loss, but there's usually no /r/ in <har> in slurred speech.

If I were to use havd, I guess it would be [havd] :?.

Vara, är, var, varit
[vɑː(ra) | eː | vɑː | vɑːrɪ]

<vara> is only [vɑːra] when emphasized, maybe when quoting stuff like "att vara eller inte vara" :P.

I know a lot of people who pronounce <varit> as [vaʈ], actually most of them do, but I usually pronounce it [vɑːrɪ], actually. These are people from Uppsala and Stockholm.

<är> varies between [eː] and [æː(r)], the latter one is mostly used when words like <du>, <det> and <dem> follow, in which case the /d/ becomes some sort of /r/.

<körkort> is indeed [ɕøːkʊʈ]

<g> is silent in endings like <-ig -lig -ligen> [ɪ | lɪ | lɪən]. In this case <gt> is [t].

Läskig, läskigt
[lɛskɪ | lɛskɪt]

Någon, något, några
[nɔn | nɔt | noːra]

Och, det, att
[oː/ɔ | deː/dɛ | oː/ɔ]

I think [deː] is a spelling pronunciation, but it's hard to shake off. It's usually [dɛ] in slurred speech though, maybe even with a schwa, especially when following <är>: [æːrə].

God, vid
[guː | viː/vɪ]

<vid> is pretty much the same as <vi> for me.

Hammaren, djuret, vatten
[hamaɳ | jʉːrə | vatən]

<till> is usually [tɪ] for me, and tills is [tɪs].

<med> is pretty much always [meː] for me. Sometimes [mɛ].

As for the text you provided, this would be how I would pronounce it:

Den 16 december 1979 kom vi åter till Indien. Vi hade flugit hela
natten. Himlen över Delhi var silvrigt vinterdisig. Luften var sval och
hade en sträv smak av damm och bränd kospillning.

Denna söndagsmorgon kom vi för elfte gången till Indien. Hit har vi
kommit med båt, hit har vi flugit. Två gånger har vi kört hit. Här har
vi tillbringat nästan femtio månader. Det har gått mer än tjugoett år
sedan vi kom första gången. Det är nästan en mansålder. Då hade vi
kört ut från Peshawar tidigt en morgon under senmonsunen 1958 och
allt var nytt...


[dɛn sɛkstonɛ dɛsɛmbɛr nɪtɔnhɵn(d)raxʷɵtɪniːɛ kɔm viː oːtɛr tɪ ɪndjɛn | viː hadɛ flʉgɪ heːla natɛn | hɪmlɛn øːvɛr dɛlɪ vɑː sɪlvrɪt vɪntɛrdiːsɪ | lɵftɛn vɑː svɑːl ɔ hadɛ ɛn strɛːv smɑːk ɑːv dam ɔ brɛnd kuːspɪlnɪŋ

dɛna sœndasmɔrɔn kɔm vɪ fœ ɛlftɛ gɔŋɛn tɪ ɪndjɛn | hiːt hɑː vɪ kɔmɪ mɛ boːt | hiːt hɑː vɪ flʉːgɪ | tvoː gɔŋɛ hɑː vɪ ɕøːʈ hiːt | hæː hɑː vɪ tɪlbrɪnga nɛstan fɛmtɪ moːnadɛr | dɛ hɑː gɔt meːr ɛn ɕʉːɛt oːr sɛn vɪ kɔm fœʃta gɔŋɛn | deː eː nɛstan ɛn mansɔldɛr | doː vɪ (hade) køːʈ ʉːt froːn <ʋeshawar> tiːdɪt ɛn mɔrɔn ɵndɛr seːnmɔnsʉːnɛn nɪtɔnhɵndrafɛmtɪɔta ɔ alt vɑː nʏt]

I might have missed somethings, but I'm too lazy to check it right now.

A few notes: I was too lazy to transcribe stress and schwas, since they should be pretty easy to figure out. I'm also too lazy to specify my /r/; it can vary quite a bit: [r ~ ɾ ~ ɹ ~ ʐ] ([ʐ] having less frication than your average [ʐ]).
Last edited by Ceresz on 2011-09-17, 16:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 15:52

ケビン wrote:Lägga, lägger, lade, lagt, lagt/lagdt
[lɛga | lɛgər | lɑː | lag̞t | lagd]

If it's too hard to see the voiceless diacritic, then <lagt> is pretty much [lakt].

I think the "pretty much" is only in your head. I'm fairly sure your lagt rhymes perfectly with slakt.

And that's not a voiceless diacritic, it's "lowered". Voiceless is a circle below (or above if below is hard to read):

EDIT: okay, so that doesn't show up for me, but whatever.
EDIT2: now it does.

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Ceresz » 2011-09-17, 16:38

Damn it, I wrote g_o instead of g_0. Silly me. And yeah, I guess it might just be in my head... but /g/ devoices before the /t/ after all, doesn't it? I guess I could just write it as [k] for simplicity's sake :whistle:.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 16:51

To save yourself, you might lower your ambitions somewhat and keep the more elaborate transcriptions to a minimum. In my experience they take ages to write, and ages to see the mistakes. It is only about silent letters anyway.

køːʈ (Perhaps a tj? And do you actually have this halfhigh vowel? An elder generation sometimes has it, but younger folks often speak with a lower vowel.)

<ʋeshawar> (I do not know anything of this name, so I would have a p.)

väga -vikt
slag - släkte - släkt

Those were earlier written vigt slägte slägt, and would you regard them as having a g or a k?
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby derevon » 2011-09-17, 17:32

I (or pretty much any person from Western Sweden I guess) would never drop the "t" in "djuret".

How would you people pronounce this sentence: "Djuret i trädgården ser inte riktigt friskt ut."? I would say something like "juret i trägårn se:nte riktit friskt ut". The "k" in friskt is probably almost inaudible though.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 17:51

derevon wrote:I (or pretty much any person from Western Sweden I guess) would never drop the "t" in "djuret".

How would you people pronounce this sentence: "Djuret i trädgården ser inte riktigt friskt ut."? I would say something like "juret i trägårn se:nte riktit friskt ut". The "k" in friskt is probably almost inaudible though.

[jʉːɹə ɪ tɹe̞gːɔɳ ʂeːntə ɹɪktɪt fɹɪsʲːt ʉt], or something like it. That palatalisation on the [s] is an approximation of what that disappearing /k/ tends to cause.

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Hunef » 2011-09-17, 17:55

Dingbats wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:A word like <vatten> is still pronounced according to the medieval spelling vatn, so the e is silent there as well.

There is at least a schwa there for most speakers, I would say.
I don't have an inserted vowel there, and most people speaking low prestige varieties (I'm not referring to extreme dialects here but Standard Swedish) still lack the swarabhakti in vatten. I don't dare to guess what the percentage is, though.

derevon wrote:How would you people pronounce this sentence: "Djuret i trädgården ser inte riktigt friskt ut."?
I'd say it roughly like [ˈjʉː.ɾə i ˈtɾɛˌɡɔɳ seː.n̩t ˈɾɪk.tɪt fɾɪst ʉt]. Note that ser inte [seː.n̩t] is pronounced with a syllabic n.
Last edited by Hunef on 2011-09-17, 18:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2011-09-17, 19:16

"Djuret i trädgården ser inte riktigt friskt ut."
jure i trägårn ser nte réktit frist ut
[zʉːβrɛɨːtrɛgoːɳɕeːɳʈɛʑektɨtfrɨstʉːβt]

(D)jure(t) i trä(d)går(de)n ser (i)nte rikti(g)t fris(k)t ut.
Last edited by Jurgen Wullenwever on 2011-09-17, 19:20, edited 1 time in total.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet.)

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Re: Silent letters in Swedish

Postby Dingbats » 2011-09-17, 19:17

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:"Djuret i trädgården ser inte riktigt friskt ut."
jure i trägårn ser nte réktit frist ut
[zʉːβrɛɨːtrɛgoːɳɕeːɳʈɛʑektɨtfrɨstʉːβt]

Har du verkligen [z] för /j/? Helt utan tydliga sekundärartikulationer?


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