Southern Sweden

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Southern Sweden

Postby 0stsee » 2007-04-12, 17:48

Hej!

I read that in the South of Sweden you use the German (or French?) R.
Also that unlike its neighboring Norway or Denmark, Swedish has a Standard Pronunciation, comparable to RP or the German Bühnenaussprache.

My question is if there is a tendency to move towards the standard prounciation in the South of Sweden, like the younger you are, the less likely will you use "French"-R or say di instead of dom.

Or do even young people cling to this pronunciation?

Tack så mycket!


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Postby Bjarn » 2007-04-12, 19:45

The band Hedningarna, their vocalist makes his Rs like that. Though, I am not sure where exactly they are from.
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Postby Hunef » 2007-04-12, 20:35

Bjarn wrote:The band Hedningarna, their vocalist makes his Rs like that. Though, I am not sure where exactly they are from.

Aren't the vocalists in Hedningarna Finnish women?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Hunef » 2007-04-12, 21:06

0stsee wrote:Hej!

I read that in the South of Sweden you use the German (or French?) R.

Correct. This r is used south of the red line in the map below:
    Image
The blue line marks the northern border of the so called "Geatic Rule", i.e., the southern r may exist conditioned - it may appear word initially (e.g. rot 'root') and long between vowels (e.g. skorra 'to burr'), but never otherwise (e.g. skåra 'cut', borr 'drill' etc.).

0stsee wrote:Also that unlike its neighboring Norway or Denmark, Swedish has a Standard Pronunciation, comparable to RP or the German Bühnenaussprache.

This holds for Denmark too where the Copenhagen form of Danish is the standard.

0stsee wrote:My question is if there is a tendency to move towards the standard prounciation in the South of Sweden, like the younger you are, the less likely will you use "French"-R or say di instead of dom.

The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

0stsee wrote:Or do even young people cling to this pronunciation?

I don't think many young southerners use the dialectal di these days, but their special r is probably at least common as the special "thick" l which exists with a complementary distribution in Sweden, i.e. north of the red line in the map above.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Bjarn » 2007-04-13, 0:19

There are two women and a man.
I would think people from Skåne would retain that R, regardless of age.
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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Dingbats » 2007-04-13, 9:20

Hunef wrote:The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

But "dom" is standard in pronunciation.

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Postby 0stsee » 2007-04-13, 12:46

Många tack för era svar!

Hunef, kartor är alltid bra. Jag tycker om dem. :D


Like I said in another thread, I got to know a Swede from Göteborg who is willing to practice with me orally.
I was considering getting used to tongue-R, but if even some Swedes themselves use French-R, why should I change mine. :P


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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby 0stsee » 2007-04-13, 12:54

Hunef wrote:I don't think many young southerners use the dialectal di these days, but their special r is probably at least common as the special "thick" l which exists with a complementary distribution in Sweden, i.e. north of the red line in the map above.


Do you mean Swedish also has a sort of L similar to Norwegian tjukk-L?

In Norway, from what I remembered, it is also that people who skarrer, usually don't use tjukk-L.
A propos skarre, do you Swedes also have a name for the habit of using French-R?


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Postby Johanna » 2007-04-13, 13:33

Swedish and Norwegian use the same thick l, "tjockt l" in Swedish. And "skarre" = "skorra", the adjective is "skorrande"
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby juronjaure » 2007-04-13, 21:06

0stsee wrote:In Norway, from what I remembered, it is also that people who skarrer, usually don't use tjukk-L.


In Norway there are 2 main regions where people do not use tjukk-l: Vestlandet and the northern areas Finnmark, Troms and partly Nordland.
Skarre-r is used only in Sørlandet and in the west up to Bergen. There are also regions in the western part who have both r-sounds. So it is not quite correct to say that people who use skarre-r usually dont have tjukk-r, but it's at least right for the southwest of Norway.
For more information see this page: http://dialektor.mohive.com/Bokmal/Cour ... ourseId=37

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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Hunef » 2007-04-13, 21:42

Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

But "dom" is standard in pronunciation.

No, you're dead wrong here. It's certainly the most common pronounciation, but I wouldn't call it standard. The standard pronounciation is de, no doubt.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Hunef » 2007-04-13, 21:44

0stsee wrote:I was considering getting used to tongue-R, but if even some Swedes themselves use French-R, why should I change mine. :P

You can definitely use your r if it is the same as the Southern Swedish regiolectal standard. There is no Standard Swedish r, but several regiolectal ones. One third - at least - of Sweden's population use your r, so it's pretty pointless to put a lot of effort to use another version of a Swedish r.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Hunef » 2007-04-13, 21:49

0stsee wrote:
Hunef wrote:I don't think many young southerners use the dialectal di these days, but their special r is probably at least common as the special "thick" l which exists with a complementary distribution in Sweden, i.e. north of the red line in the map above.


Do you mean Swedish also has a sort of L similar to Norwegian tjukk-L?

The Central Swedish dialectal and Northern Swedish regiolectal thick l is the same as the thick l in Norwegian dialects. It was most likely invented in Sweden and then spread into Norway.

0stsee wrote:In Norway, from what I remembered, it is also that people who skarrer, usually don't use tjukk-L.

The same in Sweden, basically.
Last edited by Hunef on 2007-04-14, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Dingbats » 2007-04-14, 9:44

Hunef wrote:
Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

But "dom" is standard in pronunciation.

No, you're dead wrong here. It's certainly the most common pronounciation, but I wouldn't call it standard. The standard pronounciation is de, no doubt.

Anyone using "de" would come off as pretentious, and I would be surprised if anyone has it as their most natural pronunciation. Even in very formal contexts, "dom" is the most common.

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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Ulven » 2007-04-14, 12:06

Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

But "dom" is standard in pronunciation.

No, you're dead wrong here. It's certainly the most common pronounciation, but I wouldn't call it standard. The standard pronounciation is de, no doubt.

Anyone using "de" would come off as pretentious, and I would be surprised if anyone has it as their most natural pronunciation. Even in very formal contexts, "dom" is the most common.
Själv klart, yttersida av Sverige, man är lärt till, att dom är hur att säga det. Jag vill ju använda det som det :D
-Of course outside of Sweden one is always taught that dom is how to pronounce de/dem. That's how I'll be saying it (unless I find myself in a specific dialectal region):D
If a tree falls in the woods
And no-one's there to hear
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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Hunef » 2007-04-14, 19:02

Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

But "dom" is standard in pronunciation.

No, you're dead wrong here. It's certainly the most common pronounciation, but I wouldn't call it standard. The standard pronounciation is de, no doubt.

Anyone using "de" would come off as pretentious, and I would be surprised if anyone has it as their most natural pronunciation. Even in very formal contexts, "dom" is the most common.

You are absolutely right. But it is still wrong to call dom "standard". It won't be standard until the day we throw away de and dem and replace them by dom in writing. Do you think such a reformation would be good?
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Dingbats » 2007-04-15, 10:59

Hunef wrote:
Dingbats wrote:Anyone using "de" would come off as pretentious, and I would be surprised if anyone has it as their most natural pronunciation. Even in very formal contexts, "dom" is the most common.

You are absolutely right. But it is still wrong to call dom "standard". It won't be standard until the day we throw away de and dem and replace them by dom in writing. Do you think such a reformation would be good?

I'm indifferent to that. But I don't think it's wrong to call the pronunciation "dom" standard just because we write "de" and "dem".

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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby Hunef » 2007-04-15, 17:27

Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Dingbats wrote:Anyone using "de" would come off as pretentious, and I would be surprised if anyone has it as their most natural pronunciation. Even in very formal contexts, "dom" is the most common.

You are absolutely right. But it is still wrong to call dom "standard". It won't be standard until the day we throw away de and dem and replace them by dom in writing. Do you think such a reformation would be good?

I'm indifferent to that. But I don't think it's wrong to call the pronunciation "dom" standard just because we write "de" and "dem".

I would call it "dominating" or "de facto standard", but not "standard" in the usual meaning of the word.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby 0stsee » 2007-04-16, 11:49

Indeed from my experience, practically all Swedish textbooks I've read say "de" should be pronounced as "dom".

I don't favor either pronunciation, but personally getting used to saying dom helps me a bit to distance myself from Norwegian (I still mix some words, and getting rid of interferences is not as easy as I thought :wink: ).


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Re: Southern Sweden

Postby DanSwe » 2007-04-22, 15:12

Hunef wrote:
0stsee wrote:Hej!

I read that in the South of Sweden you use the German (or French?) R.

Correct. This r is used south of the red line in the map below:
    Image
The blue line marks the northern border of the so called "Geatic Rule", i.e., the southern r may exist conditioned - it may appear word initially (e.g. rot 'root') and long between vowels (e.g. skorra 'to burr'), but never otherwise (e.g. skåra 'cut', borr 'drill' etc.).

0stsee wrote:Also that unlike its neighboring Norway or Denmark, Swedish has a Standard Pronunciation, comparable to RP or the German Bühnenaussprache.

This holds for Denmark too where the Copenhagen form of Danish is the standard.

0stsee wrote:My question is if there is a tendency to move towards the standard prounciation in the South of Sweden, like the younger you are, the less likely will you use "French"-R or say di instead of dom.

The word dom is just as dialectal as di. The standard word is de 'they'/dem 'them'.

0stsee wrote:Or do even young people cling to this pronunciation?

I don't think many young southerners use the dialectal di these days, but their special r is probably at least common as the special "thick" l which exists with a complementary distribution in Sweden, i.e. north of the red line in the map above.


That R, the guttural one, is also conditioned in most parts south of the red line, eg. in southeast Småland (Nybro on the map) where I live people seem to only pronounce the R in front of vowels (I am not Sure since I am from Skåne and pronounce it guttural all the time), but for me it seems like they pronounce "korv" as "kåv" while they pronounce kråka as kråka, though the R in Småland sounds for me "lighter" or "softer", I can't explain it. Otherwise it is thrilled and you hear it slightly at all. I guess this is due to sweon (?) (svea) influence which goes all the way down to Blekinge.


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