Lithuanian & Polish

[0stsee]

Hello!

I've been reading about the history of Poland and realized that Poland & Lithuania had centuries of common history and inevitably influenced each other.

My question is: How strong is the Polish influence in Lithuanian?

Thank you!


Mark

[Kuba]

I don't think that there are big influences on Lithuania from Poland anymore. There is a Polish minority and common history (which is seen differently by both, as far as I experienced). But that's all.

On the other hand I'm no Lithuania specialist - maybe some people from it have more specific viewpoints?

[Pauleks]

Maybe I'm a little late. I realise that the last post in this topic was posted 2 years ago. But maybe someone will read. I know alot about Lithuanian history and important facts. I am Lithuanian myself. Ok. Lithuania and Poland signed a document named "Unity of Lublin" in the medieval ages. And they became a one great nation. The Poland-Lithuanian empire didn't came up because of good relations between Poland and Lithuania actually.They defeated the "Ordin of the Holy cross" and they killed "Ulrich von Jungingen" during the battle(He was the main leader of the ordin.) The ordin was the strongest german army force in those ages. (If you want more detailed story of the battle, just tell me) The battle is called: Žalgirio mūšis- In english it is: GreenForest Battle. The relations between these countries were very intesne at the middle ages. they even fought each other. the battles were not big actually. (I want to make sure that everything that I will write here now, after these brackets, happned before the creation of Polish-Lithuanian empire.) If you didnt knew, more than a 1000 years ago, there was no Lithuania at all. There were just Baltic tribes, living their lives seperated from each other. But then a mighty persona called Mindaugas came up with an idea to unite the tribes. And create a nation. So he did. He united the baltic tribes and was crowned. Mindaugas was the first King of Lithuania, so Lithuania became a kingdom. After Mindaugas died, A new and a very long dynasty of great leaders came, called Gediminaičiai. The leaders of Lithuania stretched its borders using political methods and their swords Until. Vytautas became the leader of Lithuania. Vytautas streched the borders of Lithuania so far, that Lithuania was Reaching the Baltic sea in the south and the Black sea in the North. Its called "The big Lithuania". At that time Lithuania was the biggest country in Europe. BUT. Vytautas had a brother, named Jogaila. Jogaila was the King of Poland. And he wanted to rule Lithuania aswell. So he betrayed Vytautas. Vytautas ran abroad, to Germany. To Marienburg. To the main castle of the "Holy Cross Ordin". Which Lithuania and Poland was fighting with for hundreds of years. Vytautas asked for help, and promissed to give a province of Lithuania to the Ordin. The ordin agreed. So they marched to Poland. Jogaila agreed to give back Lithuania to Vytautas. But only with one condition. When Vytautas dies, Lithuania will be under Poland's control again. Vytautas agreed. He gave the province to the ordin, but as Vytautas knew. The province didnt want to be a part of the ordin! They wanted to be a part of Lithuania! So they fought. And were connected to Lithuania again. The ordin got very angry because of that, and they wanted the lands of Lithuania. (Let me interrupt the story. The Holy Cross ordin was supposed to fight all non-catholic nations with Pope's blessing, but Lithuania was already catholic. And the ordin did attack it anyway, because they wanted the lands of Lithuania for theirselves!) Back to the story. So, a great battle was uppon Lithuania and Poland. So Jogaila and Vytautas connected the Lithuanian and Polish armies, and even paid for few thousands of totorial soldiers to fight for Lithuania. The Battle took place in (now Poland, then Lithuania, at least as I remember the "Big Lithuania" maps). When the army was standing in the field. Ulrich von Jungingen (The leader of the Holy Cross ordin). had sent a sword to Vytautas and Jogaila. it means: Lets fight. Jogaila waited at first. He wanted to nagotiations. But Vytautas ordered the Lithuanian army to March forward. And the battle started. Can you imagine (as I remember, sorry if wrong) a total number of ~80 thousand people fighting in one field, and the canons shooting. (as a matter of fact, Lithuania-Poland had only seven cannons on the battlefield, while the ordin had 49). After about six hours of bloody fighting the Lithuanian-Poland army won the Battle. And Killed Ulrich von Jungingen during the battle. The remaining ordin forces ran to a nearby castle and locked themselves in it. The Lithuanian-Polish army had enought soldiers left to attack the castle, but they were too tired. So they left the remaining ordin troops alive. (This battle happned in 1410year and was and is called "Žalgirio Mūšis"- GreenForest Battle. After the battle, Lithuanian and Poland relations were still intense. Vytautas thought of an idea, If he would crown himself as King, then he would be automaticly independant. The pope gave Vytautas his Blessing and sent a crown directly from Vatican to Vilnius. When the chariet with the crown was riding trough Poland. It was ambushed and the crown was stolen. When Vytautas recieved that message, he mounted his horse and was riding to Poland. But unfortunetly, he hit his head to a tree. A couple of months after that, he died. Then Jogaila gave the "wheel" if i can express myself like this. Ok, Jogaila gave the wheel of lithuania to Svitrigaila, who was trying to continue Vytautas's work. But when Jogaila revieced a message about this, he took his army and marched to Lithuania. Svitrigaila also had a one Lithuanian province army. But Svitrigaila was beaten. After him, there were many Rulers of Lithuania. And they were unable to rule it. Lithuania shrunk... shrunk and shrunk... to the size it is now. TO THE SIZE WHERE MINDAUGAS STARTED. And by the way. Kaliningrad is actually a part of Lithuania. We have lended it to Russia for 50 years. But those 50 years have passed long ago. AND THEY DONT GIVE IT BACK.

I want to make sure. Ok, so I'm not a rasist. I dont hate Polish or Russian people, I think they're really nice people. I'm just saying the historical facts.

[Pauleks]

Oh, and the relations nowdays. Lithuanians and Polish have very good political relations nowdays. There are many Polish people living in Vilnius. I have a polish friend in Vilnius. And as she tells me, Lithuanian and Polish people in Vilnius get along perfectly. But I still know, that some people, especially in Kaunas dont like people from abroad living in Lithuania. Not only Polish. I personally like people living in Lithuania from abroad, but its bad for politics. Because Lithuanians know what they want to elect to the goverment, and... polish and especially Russian people vote for the wrong guys often. And then Lithuania is in danger, because there are many people in the government which are taking orders from Moscow. But its a good thing we have Dalia Grybauskaite as the president of Lithuania. Because if she suspects a spy in the government. She always fires him.

[nesos]

Lithuania and Poland signed a document named "Unity of Lublin" in the medieval ages. And they became a one great nation.

Who knows, but they called that country "The Commonwelth of Both Nations"

The Poland-Lithuanian empire didn't came up because of good relations between Poland and Lithuania actually.They defeated the "Ordin of the Holy cross" and they killed "Ulrich von Jungingen" during the battle(He was the main leader of the ordin.) The ordin was the strongest german army force in those ages. (If you want more detailed story of the battle, just tell me) The battle is called: Žalgirio mūšis- In english it is: GreenForest Battle.

In English that battle is called the Battle of Tannenberg or Battle of Grunwald (I saw both used) and the Order of Teutonic knights or the Teutonic Order for what in Lithuanian is „kryžiuočiai“ (crusades)

Vytautas had a brother, named Jogaila.

They were cousins, not brothers

But only with one condition. When Vytautas dies, Lithuania will be under Poland's control again.

Under Jogaila and his descendants, not under Poland

Then Jogaila gave the "wheel" if i can express myself like this. Ok, Jogaila gave the wheel of lithuania to Svitrigaila, who was trying to continue Vytautas's work. But when Jogaila revieced a message about this, he took his army and marched to Lithuania. Svitrigaila also had a one Lithuanian province army. But Svitrigaila was beaten.

I would say battle was undecisive and was declared an armistice. Later Shvitrigaila was overthrown by coupe

Kaliningrad is actually a part of Lithuania.

That territory while ethnically was mostly Lithuanian politically never was part of Lithuania

We have lended it to Russia for 50 years. But those 50 years have passed long ago. AND THEY DONT GIVE IT BACK.

This is something new to me

I want to make sure. Ok, so I'm not a rasist. I dont hate Polish or Russian people, I think they're really nice people. I'm just saying the historical facts.

Somehow strange those historical facts are.

[IvoCarog]

Hah...guys, i think you drifted far away from the original question

"My question is: How strong is the Polish influence in Lithuanian?"

The question, I believe, was about the influence of the Polish language on the Lithuanian (if any).

[Lietuvis]

Kaliningrad is actually a part of Lithuania.

That territory while ethnically was mostly Lithuanian politically never was part of Lithuania

We have lended it to Russia for 50 years. But those 50 years have passed long ago. AND THEY DONT GIVE IT BACK.

This is something new to me

"Potsdam agreement gave Kaliningrad to Moscow only for 50 years - till 1995, planning international conference for the next solution. ..."

Source:

http://forum.stirpes.net/c-slavija/2406 ... orner.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad

[nesos]

AFAIK Polish had little influence on the grammar and phonetics. The words of Polish origin are well integrated in Lithuanian language so that most are not even aware of their origin.
Most noticeable influence was on the Lithuanian surnames. Kazlauskas, Svarinskas, Savickas etc are formed with suffixes of the Polish origin.

Hah...guys, i think you drifted far away from the original question

"My question is: How strong is the Polish influence in Lithuanian?"

The question, I believe, was about the influence of the Polish language on the Lithuanian (if any).

My response wasn't to the thread-starter post, but only to point to the weak knowledge of a history.

[nesos]

Kaliningrad is actually a part of Lithuania.

That territory while ethnically was mostly Lithuanian politically never was part of Lithuania

We have lended it to Russia for 50 years. But those 50 years have passed long ago. AND THEY DONT GIVE IT BACK.

This is something new to me

"Potsdam agreement gave Kaliningrad to Moscow only for 50 years - till 1995, planning international conference for the next solution. ..."

Source:

http://forum.stirpes.net/c-slavija/2406 ... orner.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad

A what? Still there are nothing, that contradict my point.

[mōdgethanc]

(This battle happned in 1410year and was and is called "Žalgirio Mūšis"- GreenForest Battle.

More common known as the Battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg, depending on who you ask. "Jogaila" is also a Lithuanization (I believe) of Jagiełło, as he is more commonly known in North America.

[nesos]

(This battle happned in 1410year and was and is called "Žalgirio Mūšis"- GreenForest Battle.

More common known as the Battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg, depending on who you ask. "Jogaila" is also a Lithuanization (I believe) of Jagiełło, as he is more commonly known in North America.

I would say that "Jagiełło" is Polonization of Jogaila.

[Lietuvis]

"Jagiełło" is definitely a polonised name of Jogaila. Just like Wrocław is a polonised name of Breslau and Szcecin vs. Stettin and Wilno vs. Vilnius and Kiejstut vs. Kaestutis and Mindowg vs. Mindaugas. "There also was Svitrigaila (Shvitrigaila), so if it was a Polish name, then Svitrigaila would be something like "Szwitrigiełło" which does not make sense. Also "Svitri-" is not a Polish structure. Although I'm usually not nationalistic and i support all nationalities, countries and all cultures. Imagine yourself in another culture's skin, then you will begin to understand them and sympathise to them as well. Yet the fact is - Jogaila is the original name of Jogaila and it means: Jo (his) + gaila (feel sorry) = Pitty him, sorry for him. If you don't believe me, go to Google translator and translate this sentence from lithuanian to ... : "Man jo gaila." then translate this: "Mums jos labiau gaila".

P.S. And, I believe, here is an example of a lituanised slavic name: Povilas, which most likely derives from Pawel/Pavel/Pavol/Paul. Although who knows, it could have began as Povilas.

Now please tell me which one is closest to PIE:

Thank you (EN)
Dzie(n)kuje (PL)
Dekoju (Dekui) (LT)
Dekuji (CZ)

[Lietuvis]

Some examples of Polish influence on Lithuanian:

Viedras (provincial language, otherwise - kibiras) (Pol. wiadro = bucket)

Prashau (Pol. prosze = please; i am asking)

Prashyti (Pol. prosic = to ask, request)

Bazhnychia (Pol. boznica = church)

Grybas (Pol. grzyb = mushroom)

Ponas (Pol. Pan = mister)

Ponia (Pol. Pani = missis)

Ciongas (prov.) (Pol. ciag = wind draft)

Kaldra (prov.) (Pol. kołdra = sleeping cover)

Pančekos (prov.) (Pol. ponczaki??? = socks)

Paduška (prov.) (Lit. pagalve) (Pol. poduszka = pillow)

Diedas (prov. / alt.) ( Pol. dziad??? = old man)

Ruzhavas (Lit. - rausvas) (Pol. różowy = pink)

Plėmas (Pol. plama = dirt spot)

[Bubis]

These examples are questionable, in addition also them may be inferred from the Belarusian language as well, or is Lithuanian origin, or unexplained origin.
Some alternative etymology:
grybas < griebti
ponas < uponas (the river basin ruler)
pančiaka < apančiaka (kas apsiauta, ↑apačia)
...
Christian Science "true":
Lithuanians have been living in the wild woods and the whole culture was received from the Christian Slavs (Poles).
Jesuit Catholic propaganda.
...IE pro-pa-ganda as well.
Thank you < dangus jums (dėkui)

[Lietuvis]

These examples are questionable, in addition also them may be inferred from the Belarusian language as well, or is Lithuanian origin, or unexplained origin.
Some alternative etymology:
grybas < griebti
ponas < uponas (the river basin ruler)
pančiaka < apančiaka (kas apsiauta, ↑apačia)
...
Christian Science "true":
Lithuanians have been living in the wild woods and the whole culture was received from the Christian Slavs (Poles).
Jesuit Catholic propaganda.
...IE pro-pa-ganda as well.
Thank you < dangus jums (dėkui)

Bubis - "prajuokinai" savo kliedesiu... Pagal tave turbut ir "bybis" butu kildinamas nuo Beavis (Beavis & Butthead), o gal nuo Bubis? Paskambink daktareliui, prirasys nauju vaistu, nes seni jau tamstai nebepadeda. Your doctor will give you a new prescription, since the old one is not helping you much anymore. Stebina mane kokiu protingu zmoniu Lietuvoje esama; protingesni net uz amerikonus. Dangus tau taip pat ir zeme irgi.

[Bubis]

O tu mane papiktinai, sušiktas jėzuite. Lietuvis bl. atsirado.

[Lietuvis]

O tu mane papiktinai, sušiktas jėzuite. Lietuvis bl. atsirado.

Nesamones rasineji Bubcikai. As moksliskai pagristai parasiau, o pats supeikes mano pagristus zodzius prirasinejai tokiu kliedesiu, kad Lietuvai darosi geda nuo tokiu. Uzsirasyk sau ant kaktos "KVAILYS" .

[Bubis]

Rašyt pirma išmok, protuoli.