Lietuvių kalba - ego

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ego
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Lietuvių kalba - ego

Postby ego » 2006-09-27, 19:33

Sveiki draugai

Aš esu naujas studentas kalbos.

I am interested in Lithuanian recently. Of course this interest is not so new, I always had Lithuanian in mind, I just decided to buy a book and start with it. I don't know how it'll go, we shall see. Maybe I'll fall in love with it and study it for years, become a Lithuanian-Greek interpretor, migrate to Lithuania and die there. But maybe I will find it boring soon as well :P . Or maybe its difficulty will smash my courage :? . I have been studying ancient Greek recently too and I have already found similarities, like the genitive in -o, reminds so much of Homeric Greek!

I am going to buy "Colloquial Lithuanian" in Saturday but I'd like to ask some questions first:

1. Liisi you have mentioned that when learning a new verb you used to memorize three types of it since the very beginning. Something similar is happening with Greek too and I advise the students of Greek to do it. But which are these forms that students of Lithuanian must remember? Which person of which tenses? And how could I find these forms?

2. Could someone conjugate in Lithuanian my name? It's Thanasis.

Thanks

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Postby Mantaz » 2006-09-28, 6:58

So you have finally decided to start, good to hear that and good luck :P

Aš esu naujas studentas kalbos.


Should be „Aš esu naujas lietuvių kalbos mokinys“ („studentas“ is used for a student of collage or university)

The main verb forms are infinitive, present 3rd person and past simple 3rd person.

Your name would be declinated as following:

Nom Tanasis (Tanas- + -is)
Gen Tanasio
Dat Tanasiui
Acc Tana
Ins Tanasiu
Loc Tanasyje
Voc Tanasi!

The stressed sound bolded

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Postby ego » 2006-09-28, 7:57

So, the word order is like "I am a new of the language student"? Wow, just like ancient Greek.. Is this word order obligatory?

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Postby Mantaz » 2006-09-28, 11:16

ego wrote:So, the word order is like "I am a new of the language student"? Wow, just like ancient Greek.. Is this word order obligatory?


No, not obligatory, just a phrase in this word order doesn't sound natural. Good that ancient Greek is some kind of source for things like this :)

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Postby Rokas » 2006-09-29, 12:54

Sveiki, Tanasi!

I'm very happy that you take genuine interest in Lithuanian. Increasingly more people are interested in Lithuanian.

I hope that Lithtuanian won't make you bored because it's a fascinating language! Anyway good luck! :D

But isn't the Ancient Greek genitive flexion -osyo and not -o?

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Postby ego » 2006-09-29, 13:52

Sveikas Rokai

(I hope the vocative is correct, I am just guessing it)

Why you said sveiki btw? I'm still single :P .

You are right about *-osyo but I think that's rather Indoeuropean than Greek, or perhaps it's early Greek, I am not sure. From *-osyo derived the early Greek -oyyo which later (around 800 BC) became -oyo. Then it became -oo and in classical period (400 BC) and in Attic dialect the two "o" contracted and became -ū which remains like this till today (-u). But that's for nouns ending in -os. Others, like the ones ending in -as had a genitive in -o. So your name would be Rokao in the genitive :P . That's why I said Lithuanian -o reminded of Greek -o.

Do you speak ancient Greek?

I will officially start studying Lithuanian in Monday after an exam, although unofficially I have already study some things, like the verb būti etc

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Postby Rokas » 2006-09-29, 15:49

ego wrote:Sveikas Rokai

(I hope the vocative is correct, I am just guessing it)

Why you said sveiki btw? I'm still single :P .


Yes, you are right about 'Rokai', this is the vocative of 'Rokas' indeed.

About the 'sveiki' thing. Actually, I wanted to say "Sveikas, Tanasi". But then I thought that I didn't know if you were 'he or 'she', so I used the more formal 'sveiki' (you can use it to address someone in a more formal situation).

On second thought, your name ends in '-is'. Any Lithuanian would associate it with masculine gender. However, I wasn't sure if that was the case with Greek.

ego wrote:Do you speak ancient Greek?


Unfortunately, I don't. But I'm interested in ancient Greek and I still have plans to become familiar with it.

About the -ō in Lithuanian. I can tell you something about its origin. In dialects, you can hear people say -ā instead of -ō. In Latvian, it is also -ā. In Prussian, this ending used to be something like -ās:

deiws - god
deiwas - of the god

Therefore, we can think that -ō<-ā<*-assa etc.

Oh and by the way, the Lithuanian -as corresponds to Greek -os.

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Postby ego » 2006-09-29, 19:02

Rokas wrote:Yes, you are right about 'Rokai', this is the vocative of 'Rokas' indeed.


Yay, I'm full of fortune today, hehe. I think I saw that ending somewhere in the Latvian forum and I thought it would be same in Lithuanian. At least I took my chance..

About the 'sveiki' thing. Actually, I wanted to say "Sveikas, Tanasi". But then I thought that I didn't know if you were 'he or 'she', so I used the more formal 'sveiki' (you can use it to address someone in a more formal situation).

On second thought, your name ends in '-is'. Any Lithuanian would associate it with masculine gender. However, I wasn't sure if that was the case with Greek.


It's same as in Lithuanian. Male names end in -s (-os, -as or -is) while female in -a or -i (-e instead of -i in ancient Greek). So it's easy to distinguish sexes.

Unfortunately, I don't. But I'm interested in ancient Greek and I still have plans to become familiar with it.


Nice, I am currently studying it as well. It's really hard but as a Lithuanian it won't be so hard for you.

Oh and by the way, the Lithuanian -as corresponds to Greek -os.


I see. Actually the "Rokao" thing was only theoretical since ancient Greek words couldn't end in -kas. So your name would be Rokos, genitive Rokosyo --> Rokoyyo --> Rokoyo --> Rokū --> Roku in modern Greek.

Btw "rokas" in Greek means "rock fan" :wink: , when I first saw your nick I thought you were Greek.

Could someone give me the declension of a masculine noun in -is in the plural? I already have my name declined in the singular, I wonder what its plural would be.

Iki pasimatymo!

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Postby Rokas » 2006-09-29, 20:19

Here you go:

plural

nom. Tanasiai
gen. Tanasių
dat. Tanasiams
acc. Tanasius
instr. Tanasiais
loc. Tanasiuose
voc. Tanasiai

dual (almost passed out of usage)

nom. Tanasiu
gen. -
dat. Tanasiam
acc. Tanasiu
instr. Tanasiam
loc. -
voc. Tanasiu

Note that '-iai' is pronuonced /ei/ (the first i is not a wovel; it is the so-called minkštumo ženklas - the mark of softness).

Iki.

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Postby ego » 2006-09-29, 20:21

What?? There's a dual too? Alas! Is it used in formal speech only?

Rokas wrote:Note that '-iai' is pronuonced /ei/ (the first i is not a wovel; it is the so-called minkštumo ženklas - the mark of softness)


You mean it palatalizes the preceding consonant?

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Postby Rokas » 2006-09-30, 9:08

Well, the dual number is here just as a feature of interest. The dual number is practically extinct, being used only in dialects. Certain dual forms, for example mudu (we two), judu (you two), jiedu (they two - m), jiedvi (they two - f) are quite often used in everyday speech. However, dual forms of nouns or verbs are not used in Standard Lithuanian (nor in formal speech).

Interesting enough is the fact that the dual has disappeared recently. I might be wrong but I think that about 60-80 or perhaps 100 years ago. It started disappearing at the time when the modern Lithuanian state was founded (1918-1922). Until very recently, it had been used in everyday speech. Smetonos laikais, as one would say, on the two-litas coin there was the inscription du litu (two litas) instead of modern du litai. So the dual continued to exist throughout centuries.

In Slovenian, the dual is still used.

Phonology has always been my weak side. I hear people say 'palatalization' all the time but I have no idea what it means.

The first i in iai just makes the preceding consonant soft, and is itself therefore not pronounced. Then the -ai ending sounds as if it were /ei/ and not /ai/.

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Postby ego » 2006-10-01, 8:34

Lithuanian phonology still gives me some troubles.. First of all that -ai. Would you say it's like "ay" in "day" or like "i" in "life"? Or something in the middle?

Then the pitches. The way my book explains them is not so clear to me. In the word "sveikas" for example, it says that the diphthong ei takes a rising tone. This means that the "i" is higher and more stressed than the "e", so I could write it like sveίkas (sveikas). Have I understood correctly?

I bought my book yesterday and finished lesson 1. I only made one mistake: I looked throughout the book. I shouldn't do it, it somehow scared me :lol: . I'd like to post the exercises here but I won't have my pc for the next days and I cannot have Lithuanian fonts on uni's pcs.

Iki

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Postby Mantaz » 2006-10-01, 18:31

ego wrote:Lithuanian phonology still gives me some troubles.. First of all that -ai. Would you say it's like "ay" in "day" or like "i" in "life"? Or something in the middle?


day for -iai and life for -ai ;)

Then the pitches. The way my book explains them is not so clear to me. In the word "sveikas" for example, it says that the diphthong ei takes a rising tone. This means that the "i" is higher and more stressed than the "e", so I could write it like sveίkas (sveikas). Have I understood correctly?


You are correct about the location, just the stress should be circumflex ~, not acute.

I bought my book yesterday and finished lesson 1. I only made one mistake: I looked throughout the book. I shouldn't do it, it somehow scared me :lol: . I'd like to post the exercises here but I won't have my pc for the next days and I cannot have Lithuanian fonts on uni's pcs.

Iki


Good luck ;) Why can't you have Lithuanian fonts, btw?

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Postby ego » 2006-10-01, 18:37

Mantaz wrote:day for -iai and life for -ai


Aha, I see now. Is it like this in all words and all positions (even in the middle of a word), or just when -iai and -ai are plural endings?

You are correct about the location, just the stress should be circumflex ~, not acute.


Yeah I know. I just cannot type the circumflex here. I need to get my own pc back.

Why can't you have Lithuanian fonts, btw?


My pc is crashed and at the service right now :( . I am using public computers right now and I cannot install new fonts here..

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Postby ego » 2006-10-05, 8:13

My book says that ir, am etc are diphthongs and in such words puts the stress often over the consonants. Like the verb "skambina". What is this supposed to mean? That the consonant is stressed? Can consonants be stressed like in Slavic languages? Or else why is "ir" a dipthong?

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Postby Mantaz » 2006-10-05, 8:19

ego wrote:My book says that ir, am etc are diphthongs and in such words puts the stress often over the consonants. Like the verb "skambina". What is this supposed to mean? That the consonant is stressed? Can consonants be stressed like in Slavic languages? Or else why is "ir" a dipthong?


By dipthong it is meant not about two vowels, but about to sounds (u, i, e, a + l, m, n, r). And yes, it is often so that the consonant is stressed by the circumflex.

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Postby エヴァルダス » 2006-10-07, 11:04

Sveiki,

leiskite man įkišti savo trigrašį. Let me introduce my nose in your discussion.

Manto linksniavimas buvo teisingas, tačiau kirčiuoti reikėtų kiek kitaip:
Mantaz’ declension was correct, only the accentuation needs a little correction:

Vienãskaita (Singular):
Vardiniñkas: Tanãsis
Kilminiñkas: Tanãsio
Naudiniñkas: Tanãsiui
Galiniñkas: Tanãsį
́Įnagininkas: Tanasiù
Viẽtininkas: Tanãsyje
Šauksminiñkas: Tanãsi!

Daugìskaita (Plural) :
V. Tanãsiai
K. Tanãsių
N. Tanãsiams
G. Tanasiùs
Įn. Tanãsiais
Vt. Tanãsiuose
Š. Tanãsiai

Oh, and you should learn lithuanian grammatical terms as they are widely used in educational litterature.

Rokas:
I hear people say 'palatalization' all the time but I have no idea what it means.


Palatalization is the raise of the middle part of the tongue ([j] sound feature) while pronouncing consonants (kitaip tariant, „minkštinimas“, „minkštumas“).

Ego:
In the word "sveikas" for example, it says that the diphthong ei takes a rising tone. This means that the "i" is higher and more stressed than the "e", so I could write it like sveίkas (sveikas). Have I understood correctly?


As Mantaz have already answered, you should put a tilde on „i“: „sveĩkas“. Remember that accentuation marks do not remove dots from letters, but it is impossible to write correctly here.

There are two possible ways to pronounce diphthongs which have letters „a“ or „e“. You either prolong the initial sound in case of tvirtapradė priegaidė (the falling intonation, l’intonation descendante, I am not aware of the correct term in English) where you put the accute sign on the first letter (like in „véidas“, „kálnas“, „vérda“), either pronounce the [e] or [a] as short as possible giving the green light to a prolonged pronunciation of the final sound in case of tvirtagalė priegaidė (the raising intonation, l’intonation montante). In the latter case you put the tilde on the second letter: „sveĩkas“, „laũkas“, „ska ̃mbina“.

Sorry, it is painful to work with this Veranda font that has almost absolutely no support for diacritical marks

You would probably better understand the difference if you compared these sound files:

káltaskal̃ tas

mérktimer̃ kti

Not understanding intonations of stressed diphthongs with [a] or [e] is fatal. Do not bother trying to understand intonations (pitches, if you prefer) of other syllable types, but you should not neglect the ones with „e“ and „a“.

]My book says that ir, am etc are diphthongs and in such words puts the stress often over the consonants. Like the verb "skambina". What is this supposed to mean? That the consonant is stressed? Can consonants be stressed like in Slavic languages? Or else why is "ir" a dipthong?


Putting an accentuation mark and accentuating a syllable is not the same thing.

First of all, the notion of dyphthongs is not complex at all in Lithuanian. In our language a dyphthong is perceived as a combination of [a “pure“ vowel + any vocalized sound]. “Pure“ vowels are those present in every language: [a, e, i, o, u] etc. Vocalized sounds are actually voiced consonants that have no voicelless counterparts: [j, w, l, r, m, n]. Combinations from the former vowels and the latter consonants are called dyphthongs in many languages, not only in Lithuanian, simply just in our language they have a profound meaning when talking about syllabic modulations (pitches, intonations). NB! In fonetic tanscription [j] and [w] are transcribed as [„i“] and [„u“] when present in dyphthongs, don’t get confused.

No, consonants cannot be stressed in Lithuanian, but they can be accented only if they are present in a dyphthong.

My pc is crashed and at the service right now. I am using public computers right now and I cannot install new fonts here..


Lithuanian character support is installed by default in all modern operating systems and cannot be unistalled. If you cannot see Lithuanian letters correctly, that means you will not be able to read any text written in other languages but English, so the system is unusable for a professionnal work. You should demand installation of at least one richer font like Code2000.

Lithuanian phonology still gives me some troubles.. First of all that -ai. Would you say it's like "ay" in "day" or like "i" in "life"? Or something in the middle?


Lithuanian palatalization rules are very simple (the sign [˙] means a long vowel; the [´] means a palatalized consonant; the [.] denotes a half-long vowel):

1) every consonant that stands before a front vowel (i.e. [e, e˙, ė˙, i, i˙]) is palatalized: „dėti“ [d´́ė˙t´i], „keturi“ [k´etur´ì] etc.
2) every consonant that stands before a palatalized consonant is palatalized: „linksmintis“ [l´íŋ´k´s´m´in´t´is], „krebždėti“ [k´r´eb´ž´d´́ė˙t´i]
3) the letter „i“ that stands before a back vowel (i.e. [a, a˙, ɔ, o˙, u, u˙] becomes a sound of palatalization and thus is not pronounced: „kliūva“ [k´l´ũ˙va], „Vilnius“ [v´íl´n´us]
4) the sound [a] or [a˙] cannot be pronounced after a palatalized consonant; one must always convert it to [e] or [e˙]: „Šiauliai“ [š´eul´eĩ.], „griaučiai“ [g´r´é.ut´š´ei].

Tikiuosi, padėjau.

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Postby ego » 2006-10-07, 14:20

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation エヴァルダス, especially for the audio files. I am looking forward to listen to a native pronouncing these words

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Postby Alcadras » 2006-10-07, 16:37

ego, try also here:
http://www.text-talk.com/lt/kalbos-sinteze.html
write whatever, and it'll translate.

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Postby エヴァルダス » 2006-10-07, 23:30

ego:
I am looking forward to listen to a native pronouncing these words


These words have already been pronounced by a native Lithuanian, I don't understand why you would need another person to do the same.


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