France-eesti threat and thread

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France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-13, 7:26

Szia!
Okay, I had said I wouldn't overflow the forum with my questions but I am here to report a nasty Hungarian word that likes to bully me :cry:

OK, I have "mind" issues.
(and believe me this will not be the only one :twisted: )
Of course it's not helpful the word exists in Englisn and in Estonian (kas sa armastad mind? :mrgreen: )

I cannot really manage to gather all the forms of "mind", their meaning and their different forms.

"Mindenki"
"Minden"
"Mind"
"Mindet"...

My dream would be all the forms "mind" can take (with no suffix, I can do accusative and instrumental and dative :wink: ) and the meaning...

Thank you so much for anyone's help :D I am very grateful (and hyper motivated on carrying on with Hungarian, Learning it is a huge treat for me) :D
No kidding (having the time of my life) 8-)

Nagyon köszönöm. Szép napot kivanok :P
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levo » 2016-04-13, 9:44

Szia!
Megpróbálom összefoglalni, ami eszembe jut a "mind"-del kapcsolatban.

I try to summarize that comes to my mind regarding "mind".

mindenki - everybody
minden - everything
mind - all
mindet - the accusative of mind
please note: mindet can be replaced by mind sometimes
So, "mind" is also the nominative for "all" and also the accusative of "all of".

Accusative: Megettem mindet. = Megettem mind. - I ate all of it. The latter one sounds a little bit poetical though.
Nominative: It mostly means "they all" - Mind odavesztek. - They all lost their lives.
Mind elmentek. - They all have gone.

Please note that "mindet" and "mindent" are two different words.
Mindet - All of something (accusative)
Mindent - Everything (accusative)

Mindent megettem. - I ate everything.
Mindet megettem. - I ate all of it.

Mindnyájan - We/they all
Mindnyájan tudjuk, hogy ... - We all know that...

Please note that the above form is also a little bit poetical. The ones below are rarely used and are rather for a high-level language users:

minduntalan - "at every turn" is the official English translation
Bármit csinálok ő minduntalan saras lesz. No matter what I do, he becomes muddy all the time.

mindenekelőtt - first of all
a világmindenség - the universe (with a Hungarian and little bit poetical form)

A mindenit! - Wow!
mindenes - a person who is in charge for everything - usually a handyman, someone who repairs everything at an institution or a working place

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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-13, 12:07

Nagyon köszönöm (suur aitäh) :mrgreen:
I will train on these. I'm happy there are different words to express different cases :D
Just one particular construction : how would you say it when "all" is the subject ?

"All he can think about, is to get more money"

I would say instinctively something with "Mindet" but I am not sure "all" can be considered as accusative in that case :hmm:

OK, ready to move to question 2 (sorry, I'm quite at the beginning now) :oops:

What is personal infinitive? I had a lesson yesterday and I found out in the sentence "Nekem kell írnom" (I must write /need to write) that írnom was no conditionnal, no indicative but the table I'm Learning from says it's personal infinitive. I know the concept of personal infinitive from Portuguese but I'm not sure this is the same meaning and this is used in the same way :hmm: can someone just write a few sample sentences for me so I understand what it stands for ?

Merci beaucoup! :mrgreen:

PS Levo, do you really speak Estonian? I started it but had to give up because it was confusing me on my Learning of Hungarian :cry: but I loved it (but had problems with partitive!!)
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-13, 13:15

france-eesti wrote:"All he can think about, is to get more money"

Minden, amire gondolni tud az, hogy több pénze legyen.

Minden, amire gondol = All he's thinking about
A lány, akire gondol = The girl he's thinking about

If something is the subject then it's Nominative, no mambo-jambo endings. :wink:

What is personal infinitive?

http://www.hungarianreference.com/Verbs ... fixes.aspx
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-13, 14:49

Right! :D Thanks a lot ! :P

Nekem kell írnom egy könyvet. => I must/need to write a book.
Neked kell olvasnod ezt a könyvet => You need to read that book.
Neki kell mondania (azt), ha kedvelte ezt a könyvet => He needs to tell us if he liked that book
Nekünk kell adnunk nekik ezt a könyvet => We need to give them that book.
Nektek kell innetek teat olvasva ezt a könyvet => You need to drink tea while reading the book.
Nekik kell magyarázniuk a történetet => They need to explain the story.

Not sure about the drinking part, though... :hmm:

My question was more related to, in which cases do we use personal infinitives, I think this hasn't been created for "kell" only? Is it something like Conjunctive (like in Portuguese)? In which kind of sentences can it be found in everyday Hungarian speech?
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-13, 15:21

france-eesti wrote:Nektek kell innatok teát olvasva ezt a könyvet => You need to drink tea while reading the book.

The "olvasva" thing sounds awkward, but can't explan why... :nope:

My question was more related to, in which cases do we use personal infinitives, I think this hasn't been created for "kell" only?

In the link I gave you there's a section down there saying "Other auxilliaries besides 'kell'".
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levo » 2016-04-13, 15:50

Levike wrote:
france-eesti wrote:Nektek kell innatok teát olvasva ezt a könyvet => You need to drink tea while reading the book.

The "olvasva" thing sounds awkward, but can't explan why... :nope:

My question was more related to, in which cases do we use personal infinitives, I think this hasn't been created for "kell" only?

In the link I gave you there's a section down there saying "Other auxilliaries besides 'kell'".

I'm sorry to mess into your sentence, Levi, but there is no such word as innatok. Innotok exists, with o in the middle.

Otherwise I agree with Levike, it sounds awkward with olvasva. It would be rather. Innotok kell, miközben olvassátok ezt a könyvet.
Maybe: Ezt a könyvet olvasva innotok kell. (Reading this book, you must drink!)

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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levo » 2016-04-13, 15:57

france-eesti wrote:Nagyon köszönöm (suur aitäh) :mrgreen:
I will train on these. I'm happy there are different words to express different cases :D
Just one particular construction : how would you say it when "all" is the subject ?

"All he can think about, is to get more money"

I would say instinctively something with "Mindet" but I am not sure "all" can be considered as accusative in that case :hmm:

OK, ready to move to question 2 (sorry, I'm quite at the beginning now) :oops:

What is personal infinitive? I had a lesson yesterday and I found out in the sentence "Nekem kell írnom" (I must write /need to write) that írnom was no conditionnal, no indicative but the table I'm Learning from says it's personal infinitive. I know the concept of personal infinitive from Portuguese but I'm not sure this is the same meaning and this is used in the same way :hmm: can someone just write a few sample sentences for me so I understand what it stands for ?

Merci beaucoup! :mrgreen:

PS Levo, do you really speak Estonian? I started it but had to give up because it was confusing me on my Learning of Hungarian :cry: but I loved it (but had problems with partitive!!)

france-eesti,
It is hilarious how little I know about Hungarian grammar after having learnt so many languages. I need some time to think through our "personal infinitive".

Yes, I speak Estonian. Although I have forgotton a lot since I've been there last time, 6 years ago.

And I can imagine it is confusing you. It has a similar logic when attracting cases, posposition, making compound words, etc, so I can imagine whenever there is a difference between Hungarian and Estonian it is hard to point it out when it is not the same logic. Like learning Norwegian after Swedish :oops:

Although I can guarantee Estonian has a more simple grammar than Hungarian :D

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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-13, 16:09

Thank you Lev* :D
How kind of you to have a fight over the drinking part of my sentence :lol: It also makes me feel better because I mistake a lot between a/o :oops:
OK, seriously now, I really appreciate your help :lol:

Actually, my Hungarian teacher told me Gerund (-va, -ve) wasn't very common in Hungarian, thus I suppose my sentence is pretty ugly :D but -va/-ve is very easy to use so... 8-)

This is very interesting what you mention Levo, about Estonian grammar being easier than Hungarian! How about declensions? Because I read that Estonian had real, real declensions while Hungarian had only suffixes. So I didn't bother learning the name of them (illative, inessive, etc...) and just learnt what they were for :wink:

I am very curious about that personal infinitive, maybe because Portuguese has some too but it's the same meaning than conjunctive. I'll seek myself too but I'm always grateful for the real sentence by the real native so I can understand it better than on a theoretical website 8-)

There is a lot more to come but I am happy to be studying everyday and gradually getting better. Thank you again! :D This is very important to me :ohwell:
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-13, 19:04

france-eesti wrote:Actually, my Hungarian teacher told me Gerund (-va, -ve) wasn't very common in Hungarian, thus I suppose my sentence is pretty ugly :D but -va/-ve is very easy to use so... 8-)

The -va/-ve thing is used a lot, but not really as a gerund, more like a participle-like thing.
Although I'm not sure if I'm using the right terms.

Példa: A javaslat el van fogadva = The proposal/suggestion is accepted.

So I didn't bother learning the name of them (illative, inessive, etc...) and just learnt what they were for :wink:

I can name an astonishing number of... 3 Hungarian cases. 8-) So just don't bother learning them, nobody knows their names either way.

I like how you managed to fit 10 smileys in one post. :whistle:
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-13, 19:21

Levike wrote:I like how you managed to fit 10 smileys in one post. :whistle:


:lol: so that you don't think French are sulking bastards :yep:
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-13, 19:28

france-eesti wrote: :lol: so that you don't think French are sulking bastards :yep:

Ne aggódj, amikor Varsóban voltam, a francia Erasmus-os egyetemisták voltak a legbarátságosabbak. :yep:

Nekem az volt a benyomásom.

És a legnyíltabbak is, mégha az nem mindig egy jó dolog volt. :whistle:
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-14, 7:12

Levike wrote:Ne aggódj, amikor Varsóban voltam, a francia Erasmus-os egyetemisták voltak a legbarátságosabbak. :yep:

Nekem az volt a benyomásom.

És a legnyíltabbak is, mégha az nem mindig egy jó dolog volt. :whistle:


... Titok ? :lol:

By the way, going back to "Félek" (I fear), how must it be used when you wanna say "I am afraid you won't talk to me anymore"
Is it some construction like "Rémelem azt, hogy..." or "Gondolom azt, hogy"...

So "Félem aztől, hogy nem akarod bélszeni velem..." ?
or something like this? :hmm: or something completely different? :silly:

Thanks in advance :D
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-14, 13:51

france-eesti wrote:
Levike wrote:És a legnyíltabbak is, mégha az nem mindig egy jó dolog volt.

... Titok ? :lol:

Az illem érdekében igen. :wink:

"I am afraid you won't talk to me anymore"
"Félek attól, hogy nem akarsz beszélni velem..."


Félek attól, hogy elütötte a kutyámat az autó = I am afraid that my dog was hit by the car

literally: I am afraid from that, that hit my dog the car

Félek, hogy elütötte a kutyámat az autó = same meaning

So it's either "Félek attól, hogy" or simply "Félek, hogy".

PS: I like how you indo-europeanised beszélni into bélszeni. :yep:
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-15, 9:53

Levike wrote:PS: I like how you indo-europeanised beszélni into bélszeni. :yep:

:roll: you ruined my plan to indo-europeanise one Finno-Ugric language :doggy: Crap, I'll have to try with Estonian, now, don't you think?

So starting from now it would please me that Estonian had an accusative to mark the direct object but it can keep õ as it shares it with Portuguese :mrgreen:

OK, but seriously, today I wanna learn how to use "Hiányzik".
So "-ik" verb => weird conjugation, Hiányzom, + direct object?

Hiányzom a kutyádat (I miss your dog)
Hiányzsz a Dániat (You miss Denmark)
Hiányzunk egy diákat (We're missing one pupil)

Thank you again :D
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-15, 10:14

france-eesti wrote:Hiányzom a kutyádat (I miss your dog)
Hiányzsz a Dániat (You miss Denmark)
Hiányzunk egy diákat(We're missing one pupil)

I feel like being a hater today :twisted:

(Nekem) hiányzik a kutyád = I miss your dog (lit: your dog is missing)
(Nekem) hiányzik Dánia = I miss Denmark (lit: Denmark is missing)
(Nekünk) hiányzik egy diák = We're missing one pupil (lit: the pupil is missing)

In Hungarian you don't say "I miss X", what you say is "X is missing to me".
As far as I know you do the same in French where you say "tu me manques". (lit: you to me are missing)

But >99% of the time we leave out the "nekem, neked, etc" part since it's always obvious what you mean.

tu me manques = te nekem hiányzol (But as I said, we would probably leave out the te and nekem part)
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-15, 11:42

Levike wrote:As far as I know you do the same in French where you say "tu me manques". (lit: you to me are missing)

But >99% of the time we leave out the "nekem, neked, etc" part since it's always obvious what you mean.


totally right you are, "Tu me manques", in French, so I gotta learn the "hiányzik" from French and not English now.
So I guess if you remove "nek**", then you have to guess with the remaining of the sentence who misses the thing they miss?

So, "I miss my sister": "hiányzik a lány testvérem"
"I miss her": hiányzik ?
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-15, 12:14

france-eesti wrote:So I guess if you remove "nek**", then you have to guess with the remaining of the sentence who misses the thing they miss?

Igen, de mindig tudod, hogy miről van szó, ha van kontextus.
Yes, but you always know what it's about given the context.

It's similar to "Szeretlek", which can mean both "I love you" and "I love you all".

Szeretlek téged = I love you (je t'aime)
Szeretlek titeket = I love you all (je vous aime)

Here also, most of the time you leave out the téged or titeket part since it's obvious if you are confessing to one person or more.

So, "I miss my sister": "hiányzik a lány testvérem"
"I miss her": hiányzik ?

Pontosan! Exactly!

And if you want, you can put the nek** word there. It's not wrong, it's also totally correct, but unnecessary.
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby france-eesti » 2016-04-15, 14:50

Levike wrote:Szeretlek téged = I love you (je t'aime)
Szeretlek titeket = I love you all (je vous aime)


A mindenit! Köszönöm, most vanhat egy magyar fiú barátom :-)

Which brings me to my next question: how do I mix some stuff we saw earlier (kell, kellene, hat/het) when I want to say "I have"?

For example :
I can have a dog: Vanhat egy kutyám... ?
I need to have a dog: Nekem kell egy kutyám lennem?
I should have a dog: Kellene egy kutyám volnék?
:hmm:
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Re: France-eesti threat and thread

Postby Levike » 2016-04-15, 19:23

france-eesti wrote:Köszönöm, most lehet egy magyar fiú barátom :-)

Kis apróság, de elég, ha azt mondod, hogy "barátom".
Slight detail, but it's enough if you say "barátom".

Saying "fiú barátom" kind of sounds like "male boyfriend", maybe a bit too specific. :whistle:

I can have a dog: Lehet egy kutyám
I need to have a dog: Nekem kell egy kutya lennem
I should have a dog: (Nekem) kellene egy kutya


"Nekem kell egy kutyának lennem" is a correct sentence, but it means "I need to be a dog".
My profile pic approves of your life decisions. 8-)

I can have good grades, sometimes = (Nekem) lehetnek jó jegyeim, néha
You need to have a personal life = Neked kell egy magánélet
He should have a bomb under his bed = Neki kellene egy bomba az ágya alá

lehetek = I can be
lehetsz = you can be
lehet = he/she/it can be
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