Hungarian "a"

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Starian
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 20:00

Well, in my University, if you're a Linguistics student like me and want to pass and have a good grade, you HAVE to know ALL the IPA sounds. It's not a matter of nativity. We call it, Phonetics laboratory.
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Postby Car » 2004-10-23, 20:17

Starian wrote:Well, in my University, if you're a Linguistics student like me and want to pass and have a good grade, you HAVE to know ALL the IPA sounds. It's not a matter of nativity. We call it, Phonetics laboratory.


And what do you do with sounds you simply can't hear correctly? Where you only know what they are supposed to sound like, but not more?
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 20:24

Well... I'm not sure but... If someone has a hearing-related physical challenge, then he/she probably wouldn't be able to study Linguistics, at least Phonetics.
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Postby Car » 2004-10-23, 20:34

Starian wrote:Well... I'm not sure but... If someone has a hearing-related physical challenge, then he/she probably wouldn't be able to study Linguistics, at least Phonetics.


What has this to do with a hearing-related physical challenge? Do you claim to understand every sound correctly even if you've never heard it before?
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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-23, 22:04

Starian wrote:Ok it's the same sound. British English "o" in "dog" and Hungarian "a". However, I don't think you're simply insane or stubborn, so peut-être you have been listening to the wrong people, the wrong accent. Or your Phonetics teacher doesn't know all the differences between Amnerican English and British English.

Well, I don't have a phonetics teacher; why do you think my studies are in any way related to linguistics? Anyway, most of my English teachers were native speakers (from both sides of the Atlantic), so I'm the most probable source of error. I'm not studying English any more, but I occasionally watch television and movies. Despite all this I still dare to listen to my ears sometimes. :)

I probably hear a difference because the 'dog' sound is very alien to my 'a'-tuned ears. Maybe the way Brits pronounce the adjacent consonants modulates it somehow that makes the two sounds distinguishable, I don't know. However, I'm 100 percent sure that none of the Hungarian vowels are heard in English the same way, at least not in prevailing dialects. Only some consonants are shared.

I also proposed that even though I hear this difference they still might be denoted by the same IPA symbol. That's what diacritics are for, describing the more subtle differences, I guess.
Tanulni, tanulni, tanulni!

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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 22:13

Car wrote:
Starian wrote:Well... I'm not sure but... If someone has a hearing-related physical challenge, then he/she probably wouldn't be able to study Linguistics, at least Phonetics.


What has this to do with a hearing-related physical challenge? Do you claim to understand every sound correctly even if you've never heard it before?


Car in a Phonetics and Phonolgy Lab, we HAVE to learn ALL the IPA. We LISTEN to it over and over again until we learn how to perceive a sound and classify it as velar sounded occlusive (just an example). If you cannot do that you can't pass the first year of linguistics*.

I'm on the second year.

And I talked about physical challenges because I thought everyone nin the world knew about linguistics courses. :P My mistake.

* This doesn't mean you can't make a mistake one day, but we are not supposed to :P :wink:
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 22:17

CoBB the Generous wrote:
Starian wrote:Ok it's the same sound. British English "o" in "dog" and Hungarian "a". However, I don't think you're simply insane or stubborn, so peut-être you have been listening to the wrong people, the wrong accent. Or your Phonetics teacher doesn't know all the differences between Amnerican English and British English.

Well, I don't have a phonetics teacher; why do you think my studies are in any way related to linguistics? Anyway, most of my English teachers were native speakers (from both sides of the Atlantic), so I'm the most probable source of error. I'm not studying English any more, but I occasionally watch television and movies. Despite all this I still dare to listen to my ears sometimes. :)

I probably hear a difference because the 'dog' sound is very alien to my 'a'-tuned ears. Maybe the way Brits pronounce the adjacent consonants modulates it somehow that makes the two sounds distinguishable, I don't know. However, I'm 100 percent sure that none of the Hungarian vowels are heard in English the same way, at least not in prevailing dialects. Only some consonants are shared.

I also proposed that even though I hear this difference they still might be denoted by the same IPA symbol. That's what diacritics are for, describing the more subtle differences, I guess.


I am sorry, I read somewhere that "in your studies" -of English- you never were tought that -the "o"/"a" similarity-. My mistake again :oops: . We Linguistics students tend to think that every language course should work with linguistics directly. However I'm aware that that doesn't happen everywhere. However in my school it does :P. But I'm in a Modern Language school anyway :lol:

Ohh and I forgot to mention that something similar has happened to me once. When I tried to study spoken Brazilian Portuguese I couldn't recognise the "open O" sound it had. (I wasn't a linguistics student at that time). Even that I was told that that sound existed in other languages I speak I just couldn't "make" it in BPortuguese. That sound is [ɔ]. It wasn't after I learnt in one of my linguistics classes that we had that phone in Spanish too as an allophone (being Spanish my 1st language) that I realised it. I learnt how to perceive phonologycally and how to produce it following some patterns (even that I used it everyday in English, Italian and Spanish, I wasn't really aware of it). See? Linguistics rulez :P :lol:

(though it's not exactly the same thing but somewhat similar hehe) :wink:

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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-23, 22:30

Linguists are hedonists. :D

By the way, could you direct me to some audio IPA chart that you think is a reliable source?
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 22:49

LOL!!! :lol:
_____________

Of course the first one is the link I use most when I need to. Though it's not a chart :P The second one is. :)

- http://www2.unil.ch/ling/english/phonetique/table-eng.html
- http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/
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Postby Car » 2004-10-24, 10:14

Starian wrote:Car in a Phonetics and Phonolgy Lab, we HAVE to learn ALL the IPA. We LISTEN to it over and over again until we learn how to perceive a sound and classify it as velar sounded occlusive (just an example). If you cannot do that you can't pass the first year of linguistics*.


So it is possible after all? Because I read somewhere that after some time some sounds we don't hear in our native language are overlapped by sounds we have, leading to the result that the other sounds aren't heard properly anymore. I do know that after listening to it often enough, you can hear differences you couldn't hear before, but I didn't know this is true for all sounds. Does the same apply to people studying a particular foreign language at uni? Because I know a German teacher from England and she has an accent when speaking German. Or do you only have to hear everything, but not be able to pronounce everything?
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-24, 12:16

It is possible. In my Linguistics course we are also tought how to produce those sounds. But hearing sounds and produce them uses the same "theory" or "technique". The only difference is the part of the body you use. We have to follow certain rules we are tought in order to be able to produce a sound, however, producing those might be easy or difficult depending on the person. Also, if you have a anatomic problem with your jaw, or if you don't have an upper lip and things like could make it impossible to produce certain phonemes.

However, what you say might be true. One of my classmates is like 30 years old, and she got a bad grade the last year (she passed though), she was able to recognise sounds but she had difficult times trying to produce them herself. On the other hand I was 17 years old and I got good grades :)
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