Hungarian "a"

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Hungarian "a"

Postby Strigo » 2004-10-19, 23:33

Hi,

This is avery beautiful sound, I love it! What is its phonemic sign? Which other languages has it??

I like it very much

:)
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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-20, 5:53

For simplicity:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hungarian.htm

If I'm not mistaken the sign is ɒ.
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Postby Malcolm » 2004-10-20, 9:07

I think english has it... I'm not too sure because i can't see the phonetic sign cobb wrote. I think it's pretty close to the o of "dog" in British pronunciation

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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-20, 12:50

I've never heard it in English, only vowels between Hungarian 'a' and 'o' or 'a' and 'á'.
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Postby Malcolm » 2004-10-20, 15:13

cobb could you visually describe the phonetic sign you used so that i can imagine what it's like since i can't see it? Or link me up to a page that shows it? Or can anyone tell me how I can read IPA on my pc?

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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-20, 15:50

Look at the omniglot link in my first post. I used the same IPA symbol that's there under the 'a' in the alphabet (X-SAMPA 'Q'). As for your computer, you should simply use a unicode font. I see it both under Windows and Linux without any extra effort, it's strange that it doesn't work for you.

Hmm, I just checked before posting, and it seems that Internet Explorer is the culprit. Mozilla and Opera render it flawlessly.
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Postby Malcolm » 2004-10-20, 16:08

Ok i tried looking at it in mozilla, it works ok
So the phonetic sign used for the a un hungarian is actually the same as the sign used for the o of dog in english.

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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-20, 17:44

Not at all, dog is pronounced as /dɔg/ in the UK and /dɔːg/ or /dɑg/ in the US according to my dictionary, and also that's how I remember from my studies. /ɒ/ is the rounded pair of /ɑ/.
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-21, 0:09

CoBB the Generous wrote:Not at all, dog is pronounced as /dɔg/ in the UK and /dɔːg/ or /dɑg/ in the US according to my dictionary, and also that's how I remember from my studies. /ɒ/ is the rounded pair of /ɑ/.


Yes at all. First, I think Malcom is a native English speaker. Second, British English "o" in "dog" is /ɒ/. I'm pretty sure it is the standard British pronounciation.
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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-21, 6:14

This is getting confusing, so I tried to make a little research. I found practically an equal amount of resources for both /ɔ/ and /ɒ/ being used in English words like dog or lot; even the various dictionaries seem to be inconsistent in this question.

I guess the IPA is just not precise enough. Maybe they (Hungarian 'lat' and British 'lot') should be considered allophones? They are too easy to distinguish for that. Hmm, someone should clear this up. :roll:
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2004-10-21, 6:29

Quoting my Oxford Advanced Learners' dictionary:

The sound /ɒ/ does not occur in American English, and words which have this vowel in British pronunciation will instead have /ɑː/ or /ɔː/ in American English. For instance, got is /gɒt/ in British English, but /gɑːt/ in American English, while dog is British /dɒg/, American /dɔːg/.
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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-21, 8:29

Országh dictionary:

http://cobb.host.sk/misc/dog1.png

Oxford Advanced Learners':

http://cobb.host.sk/misc/dog2.png

Don't click the links but copy them into your address field, otherwise you get a 403.
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Postby Malcolm » 2004-10-21, 12:56

I had a look in my dictinary, and the phonetic trancription of dog has that sign you used to describe the hungarian "a", Cobb.
And in English phonetics class we were never taught the sign that looks like an o opened on the left, but I was told it was the equivalent of that sign you used.

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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-21, 17:42

That's strange. Illustration from Wikipedia:

Image
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-22, 2:16

CoBB the Generous wrote:Országh dictionary:

http://cobb.host.sk/misc/dog1.png

Oxford Advanced Learners':

http://cobb.host.sk/misc/dog2.png

Don't click the links but copy them into your address field, otherwise you get a 403.


There, second link. The first phonetic transcription said it all. 1st British English, 2nd -notice the US là- American English. The term allophone is not rightly used. Hungarian "a" and British English "o" in "dog" are the same phones.
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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-22, 6:10

Starian wrote:Hungarian "a" and British English "o" in "dog" are the same phones.

That's what you're saying, but I can clearly hear the difference between the two. Hungarian 'a' is definitely more open. That's why I'm so confused in the first place about the notation.
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 3:45

Post a link with a sound clip of hungarian "a" then.
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Postby CoBB » 2004-10-23, 6:43

I found a course; its sound clips are here:

http://www.ku.edu/~magyar/courses/103/unit1/audio/

Listen to Farkas.mp3 or aa.mp3 (the first vowel only).
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Postby Starian » 2004-10-23, 19:53

Ok it's the same sound. British English "o" in "dog" and Hungarian "a". However, I don't think you're simply insane or stubborn, so peut-être you have been listening to the wrong people, the wrong accent. Or your Phonetics teacher doesn't know all the differences between Amnerican English and British English.
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Postby Car » 2004-10-23, 19:57

Starian wrote:Ok it's the same sound. British English "o" in "dog" and Hungarian "a".


What makes you so sure? For me, it sounds the same (at least in aa, Farkas sounds different), too, but we don't hear everything correctly if the sound doesn't exist in our native language.
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