Learners: What's hardest for you?

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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby ''' » 2010-11-19, 11:49

they are verbal prefixes. be ki le fel meg el át rá ide ode szét össze visszaare the main 13 from memory. They are written with the verb is directly in front, and separate if 1 word before the verb (el akarok menni) or after the verb. One of the few consistent things.
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby Aleco » 2010-11-19, 15:13

It is not only the grammatical nuances of those prefixes that are hard, but also the meaning. I mean, figuring out how a verb's meaning is different when the prefix is not used. :hmm: And then again it is hard to know whether to use the prefix or not.
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby ''' » 2010-11-19, 15:18

same with german. My rule of thumb is, if it doesn't express a physical motion, assume u have to learn it as a new verb entirely.
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby Aleco » 2010-11-20, 11:25

What do you mean by that?

And by the way, I think the problem both Gothwolf and I had with the verbal prefixes, was how to know when it should be a part of the verb or not. At least that was my problem :P
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby Bondi » 2010-11-20, 12:42

same with german. My rule of thumb is, if it doesn't express a physical motion, assume u have to learn it as a new verb entirely.

Aleco:
What do you mean by that?

Some funny examples:
megpatkolni = to put horseshoes on the horse
elpatkolni = to pass away (slang: to kick the bucket)

Or:
csinálni = to do, to make
becsinálni = to mess someone's pants
felcsinálni = to knock someone up
kicsinálni = to wreck someone, or kill someone
:)

While, with verbs of motion:
menni = to go
elmenni = to go away
kimenni = to go out
etc.

There are quite a few exceptions, of course (e.g. összemenni = to shrink), but this rule is useful for a start.

Aleco:
And by the way, I think the problem both Gothwolf and I had with the verbal prefixes, was how to know when it should be a part of the verb or not. At least that was my problem :P

I don't think there's a rule for that.

But that's a problem even in English, sometimes. For ex.: Pull your trousers up! (Not "Pull up your trousers".)

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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby ''' » 2010-11-20, 15:49

bondi, both of those are used, although only "pull your trousers up" us correct since up modifies the verb which has no auxiliary and as such has to go to the end f the sentence.

For the most part i think in Hungarian it all comes down to what you want to stress in the sentence.
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby Aleco » 2010-11-21, 0:45

Thanks, Bondi :)

So would you ever stress those prefixes?
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby ''' » 2010-11-21, 4:21

oh yeah, particularly /meg/. to stress that it'll be completely done.

Also, don;t forget in imeratives, the prefix always follows the verb
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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby Bondi » 2010-11-21, 13:25

Yes, in imperative mode, it's normally like this:
Csináld meg! Menj be! Tedd el! Add ide! (from verbs: megcsinál, bemegy, eltesz, idead)

The stress is really hard to explain in English... Most of the time, the more important message comes closer in front when you construct a sentence.

Examples:

1. Muki bement a házba.
Or: Bement Muki a házba.
Or: Bement a házba Muki. — Mooky went into the house.

2. Muki ment be a házba. — It was Mooky who went into the house. (So I stress that it was him.)

3. Muki a házba ment be.
Or: A házba ment be Muki. — It was the house where Mooky went into. (So I stress that it was the house.)

As questions + answers:
1. Mit csinált Muki? Muki bement a házba.
2. Ki ment be a házba? Muki ment be a házba.
3. Hova ment be Muki? Muki a házba ment be.

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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby gothwolf » 2010-11-21, 14:06

In negative sentences as well:
Muki nem ment be a házba.

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Re: Learners: What's hardest for you?

Postby Levo » 2010-11-27, 0:03

As for the word-order thing, yeah: One can make a rule that the ephasized part comes to the front mostly. And one can make another rule that the emphasized part comes to the one before the last one in order, mostly :) So, there's no actual rule how we could describe it, ...mostly :)

The verbal prefixes...Yeah, for me Swedish has the same problem. In a lot of cases I see no contact in the meaning between the two forms of the same word-stem, one without a prefix and the other one with a verbal prefix. I have to learn those forms as separate words usually :S
With Estonian this problem is almost non-existent since the logic is very familiar for a Hungarian speaker in most of the cases, luckily.


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