Order of morphemes.

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wilsonsamm
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Order of morphemes.

Postby wilsonsamm » 2007-02-09, 16:38

We have a word, and then some bits and bobs to go on the end (or beginning) of the word to make the meaning slightly different.

So "Magyarül tanulam" - I'm learning Hungarian.
Now this "ül" is added to something that you learn? I mean it's governed by the verb? I don't know.

but if I wanted to say "I'm learning your language" I'd use the noun "nyelv" plus the possessive for the appropriate person, "-ed".

So "A nyelvedul tanulam" - I'm learning your language, right?
Or "A nyelvuled tanulam"
or even "A te nyelvuled ..."

Which one is/which ones are right?

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darkina
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Postby darkina » 2007-02-09, 18:57

Isn't it tanulok? (or maybe tanulom but I don't think it can be in this case). And magyarul?
The -ul thing was taught to me as something you use when you say you speak a language, like 'in' in Italian or like saying po-russki in Russian but I guess this doesn't help. I only feel safe using it in that case, like beszélek magyarul/angolul/whateverul ;)
I don't think you can use -ul when you say "I learn your language", you have to use the accusative and the possessive, so I'd say "A nyelvedet tanulom" (so I used first the possessive and then the accusative but I don't know why, it sounded better but it might be the opposite... there's certainly a rule there but I don't remember it). I'd venture to say that the -ul doesn't look like something you use together with other suffixes, but hmmm. Ok, now I'll be proved completely wrong :oops:

How useful to answer to a post adding doubts to it :lol:
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Re: Order of morphemes.

Postby CoBB » 2007-02-09, 19:12

Darky, you are totally right in everything! :praise: Shove those doubts into a dark hole. ;)

wilsonsamm wrote:So "Magyarül tanulam" - I'm learning Hungarian.
Now this "ül" is added to something that you learn? I mean it's governed by the verb? I don't know.

First of all, you have to consider vowel harmony. Magyar is a word with back vowels, hence it gets the back ending -ul, not -ül. And since there’s no definite object (well, no object at all), conjugation is indefinite:

Magyarul tanulok.

But more importantly, this is not a case ending but an adverb derivational suffix, i.e. magyarul is an adverb. Tanulni is simply a transitive verb, so it governs the accusative case, but languages are a special case where you need to use this -ul/-ül form to express that you’re (or were) studying it. You can also use accusative (magyart), but it means something different then, it puts the emphasis on the result of learning instead of the process itself.

wilsonsamm wrote:but if I wanted to say "I'm learning your language" I'd use the noun "nyelv" plus the possessive for the appropriate person, "-ed".

Yes, that’s correct.

wilsonsamm wrote:So "A nyelvedul tanulam" - I'm learning your language, right?
Or "A nyelvuled tanulam"
or even "A te nyelvuled ..."

Now this is totally wrong, because it would be an adverb (if you could use this suffix in the first place), hence you can’t add anything to it. For anything that’s not a particular language, you have to use accusative case:

Nyelvet tanulok. - I’m studying a language.
A nyelvedet tanulom. - I’m studying your language.

And this leads us to a general answer to your question on stacking endings. In the case of nominals (nouns, adjectives and numerals) there are four slots that can be filled independently, and their order is fixed:

stem + number (singular/plural) + possessor (6 possibilities) + possession (singular/plural) + case

Their forms are the following:
singular: none
plural: -k if there’s no possessor, -i- if there is one
- the meaning is straightforward, I hope
-m, -d etc. - my, your...
(singular), -éi (plural) - that of, those of
-ban, -nak... - depends on the case and the context

E.g.:

barát - friend
barátok - friends
barátom - my friend
barátaim - my friends
barátomé - that of my friend, e.g. ez a kocsi a barátomé - this car belongs to my friend
barátaiméban - in that of my friends

Kinek a házában laktál? – A barátaiméban.
Whose house did you live in? – In the one owned by my friends.
Tanulni, tanulni, tanulni!

A pő, ha engemély, kimár / De mindegegy, ha vildagár... / ...mert engemély mindet bagul, / Mint vélgaban a bégahur!...

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Postby darkina » 2007-02-09, 23:03

:D The word adverb had come to my mind but it was swallowed into the chaos of doubts ;) I was kind of convinced when I started but then the more I think about things the more I get insecure and even when I'm 99% sure of something I will always say "maybe". One of my friends sometimes criticises me for that :lol:

End OT :roll: :oops:
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Postby wilsonsamm » 2007-02-10, 14:02

Oh right, I was thinking for some reason that ü was a back vowel :oops:

Well, I had a doc explaining -ul/-ül was the inessive case :? but of course that's the -ban -ba -ból set, isn't it.

So if -ul is a way of making an adverb out of a noun, then "bészelek magyarul" translates literally as "I speak hungarianly, in the manner of Hungary" sort of thing. M-hmm :idea: I see why you use the indefinite conjugation now.

Am i right in assuming gerunds behave the same way?

So barátaiméban - in that of my friends
and barátadéiba - into those of your friend
and any case suffixes are still the back vowel ones even if "éi" comes between

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Postby wilsonsamm » 2007-02-10, 14:02

Sorry, double post
Last edited by wilsonsamm on 2007-02-10, 14:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby CoBB » 2007-02-10, 14:21

wilsonsamm wrote:Oh right, I was thinking for some reason that ü was a back vowel :oops:

That’s not a matter of thinking. It must be handled by your ear, not your brain. ;)

wilsonsamm wrote:Well, I had a doc explaining -ul/-ül was the inessive case :? but of course that's the -ban -ba -ból set, isn't it.

More precisely those are the inessive, illative and elative cases in the given order, but I prefer not to use this terminology if it can be avoided. And yes, -ul/-ül is not even a case ending. As a derivational suffix it is part of the stem, and as adverbs cannot be subject to declension, you’ll only see it at the end of words.

wilsonsamm wrote:So if -ul is a way of making an adverb out of a noun, then "beszélek magyarul" translates literally as "I speak hungarianly, in the manner of Hungary" sort of thing. M-hmm :idea: I see why you use the indefinite conjugation now.

Yes, something like that. Just for the record, I’d translate a word like ‘in a Hungarian manner’ as magyarosan. The suffix -os/-es/-ös derives an adjective from a noun or another adjective with the meaning ‘in the likeness of...’ So magyaros means ‘characteristic of Hungary’, kékes is ‘primarily blue’. These can be turned into an adverb by adding the suffix -an/-en: magyarosan - ‘in a typically Hungarian way’, kékesen - ‘with a bluish shade’ etc.

wilsonsamm wrote:Am i right in assuming gerunds behave the same way?

What do you mean by gerunds? I don’t think Hungarian has them.

wilsonsamm wrote:So barátaiméban - in that of my friends
and barátodéiba - into those of your friend
and any case suffixes are still the back vowel ones even if "éi" comes between

Yes, that’s right. Two additional remarks though:

1. In theory, you can add any number of possessions, not just one. In practice this means at most two: a barátjáéé - the one that belongs to that of his friend.
2. The possession slot is used rarely compared to the others. The doubling above is extremely rare, and I’d say always avoidable too.
Tanulni, tanulni, tanulni!



A pő, ha engemély, kimár / De mindegegy, ha vildagár... / ...mert engemély mindet bagul, / Mint vélgaban a bégahur!...

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Postby wilsonsamm » 2007-02-10, 14:31

CoBB wrote:
wilsonsamm wrote:Am i right in assuming gerunds behave the same way?

What do you mean by gerunds? I don’t think Hungarian has them.


A gerund is a noun derived from a verb, isn't it? now suddenly I'm a little unsure of my terminology. like "listing" derived from "to list". In English this form is identical to the present participle, but for example French makes the distinction.

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Postby CoBB » 2007-02-10, 14:39

wilsonsamm wrote:A gerund is a noun derived from a verb, isn't it?

No, it’s a more specific part of speech. What you’re talking about is deverbal nouns. And to answer your question, it doesn’t matter how a word is derived but what it is after all. If it’s a noun, then it can be declined just like any other noun, regardless of whether it’s based on a verb, an adjective or it is a basic word itself.
Tanulni, tanulni, tanulni!



A pő, ha engemély, kimár / De mindegegy, ha vildagár... / ...mert engemély mindet bagul, / Mint vélgaban a bégahur!...

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Postby wilsonsamm » 2007-02-11, 11:01

It's such an interesting language. Too bad I don't speak it very well. Not yet, anyway.

And CoBB and Darky, you're good chaps. Thanks for the help. If there's anything I want to know, I can just ask here and there's always a genius to answer my questions :D

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Postby wilsonsamm » 2007-02-11, 11:08

Oh, actually . . .

Which of these forms behave grammatically as plural nouns and need the verb in the plural?

barátok
barátaim
barátoméi
barátaimé &c.

I'm thinking it's only "barátok" that does, but I'm not sure

edit: hmmm, another observation: the link vowel depends on whether it's singular or plural:
barátoméi
barátaimé

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Postby CoBB » 2007-02-11, 11:23

wilsonsamm wrote:barátok - many friends
barátaim - many friends
barátoméi - many things of one friend
barátaimé - one thing of many friends

I'm thinking it's only "barátok" that does, but I'm not sure

The ones I marked with bold do, reason in italics on the right hand side. If something refers to many things, it’s plural. Note that when you add a possession, it takes the role of the subject from the stem.

wilsonsamm wrote:edit: hmmm, another observation: the link vowel depends on whether it's singular or plural:
barátoméi
barátaimé

Yes, that’s the sad reality. ;) Well, it’s not that complicated. The singular forms have the same link vowel as the simple plural form (e.g. házak → házam, napok → napom, képek → képem), while the plurals have -a- or -e- depending on vowel harmony (házaim, napjaim, képeim). The hard part is that in many words a -j- is added before this link vowel, and there doesn’t seem to be a sensible rule for it. :roll: Look here for more information.
Tanulni, tanulni, tanulni!



A pő, ha engemély, kimár / De mindegegy, ha vildagár... / ...mert engemély mindet bagul, / Mint vélgaban a bégahur!...


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