Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

jemiljan
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Postby jemiljan » 2007-05-20, 23:29

Thanks, but that does not seem to work for me in TextEdit on my Mac. The exact same problem occurs as before; the character remains disconnected to the other letters. What word processor are you using? Perhaps that will make a difference.

Thanks!

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Postby kalemiye » 2007-05-21, 8:44

I don't have myself a text processor with arabic letters, but my friend does and she has an arabic version of Microsoft Word, therefore i cannot really help you.

I tried inserting arabic letters as symbols but then again, i could not link them, nor show them in their correct position. Certainly, i don't really know how you could do this.

Try asking in the persian forum, they might know about any text proccessor with this letter.
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Postby zhiguli » 2007-06-23, 20:11

some more books from google books:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0P4_X ... oVUqrB&id= j0u9Mw-TsyIC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=hagopian+turkish&as_brr=1#PPR 2,M1

http://books.google.com/books?vid=05l_b ... 6sz4Ba&id= bYqvxt5wQrcC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=wells+turkish&as_brr=1#PPP4,M 1

http://books.google.com/books?id=pIxKPp ... h&as_brr=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=wukHAA ... thy&pgis=1

note: if you are outside the us (as I am) you may have problems downloading some of them because of different copyright laws.

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Postby zhiguli » 2007-06-23, 20:18

and some more books in german, which you can search for yourself:

Grammatik der Türkisch-osmanischen Umgangssprache By P J. Piqueré, (Vienna, 1870)

Türkische Grammatik mit Paradigmen, Litteratur, Christomathie und Glossar By August Müller (Berlin, 1889)

Allgemeine Grammatik der türkisch-tatarischen Sprache, by Aleksandr Kazem-Bek (Leipzig, 1848)

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kalemiye
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Postby kalemiye » 2007-06-23, 20:27

Wow, they are great links zhiguli!! It's a pity that most of them are not downloadable (does that word exist? LoL). Thanks a bunch.

None of them are available at my university's library... well, there aren't many books Turkish actually, just a couple of them on modern Turkish and one on azeri, finally, there are some dictionaries too. In the catalogue appears a book on ottoman turkish, but i couldn't find it in the shelf it is supposed to be, so i think somebody may have stolen it.

edit: This book look interesting too: http://books.google.com/books?id=jLdViwT7rwQC&dq=wells+turkish&as_brr=1&hl=es

And I was wrong... there aren't many books on turkish though, but there are many in turkish :lol: and osmanlica. Though if they are in Turkish they aren't helpful to me (yet :lol:). I drop the link here, just in case anybody wants to check my university's book catalogue:
http://biblos.uam.es/uhtbin/cgisirsi/zH ... 100009/123
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zhiguli
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Postby zhiguli » 2007-06-24, 3:58

indeed, it's a shame they're not available to everyone. if you know someone who lives in the usa, maybe they can download them for you..
for now i've uploaded the hagopian book to rapid:
http://rapidshare.com/files/38996093/Ot ... r.pdf.html

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-06-24, 23:32

zhiguli wrote:[...] if you know someone who lives in the usa, maybe they can download them for you..
[...]



Anyone can feel free to send me a pm if they run into problems downloading any of the books...
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jemiljan
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Postby jemiljan » 2007-09-09, 19:02

Merhaba, I finally found a way to get this to work. Recently, I discovered a Persian Mac Users site:

http://irmug.org/portal/index.php

I discovered a board on Osmanlıca encoding, where I foduns someone who has developed a series of free fonts as well as keyboards that can type in Osmanlıca, Kurdish, Urdu, Uygur, etc. etc. He has included the "missing" nef character. To learn more, please visit:

http://memug.org/showthread.php?tid=135

You may need to register with the site to view this.

I find I can now type words with this character, with no mysterious breaks. That said, it only works with the XB font series. Oddly enough, it will work in MS Excel for Mac, even though MS Office doesn't fully support RTL scripts.


renata wrote:I don't have myself a text processor with arabic letters, but my friend does and she has an arabic version of Microsoft Word, therefore i cannot really help you.

I tried inserting arabic letters as symbols but then again, i could not link them, nor show them in their correct position. Certainly, i don't really know how you could do this.

Try asking in the persian forum, they might know about any text proccessor with this letter.

jemiljan
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Postby jemiljan » 2007-09-09, 19:02

Merhaba, I finally found a way to get this to work. Recently, I discovered a Persian Mac Users site:

http://irmug.org/portal/index.php

I discovered a board on Osmanlıca encoding, where I found someone had developed a series of free fonts as well as keyboards that can type in Osmanlıca, Kurdish, Urdu, Uygur, etc. etc. He has included the "missing" nef character. To learn more, please visit:

http://memug.org/showthread.php?tid=135

You may need to register with the site to view this.

I find I can now type words with this character, with no mysterious breaks. That said, it only works with the XB font series. Oddly enough, it will work in MS Excel for Mac, even though MS Office doesn't fully support RTL scripts.


renata wrote:I don't have myself a text processor with arabic letters, but my friend does and she has an arabic version of Microsoft Word, therefore i cannot really help you.

I tried inserting arabic letters as symbols but then again, i could not link them, nor show them in their correct position. Certainly, i don't really know how you could do this.

Try asking in the persian forum, they might know about any text proccessor with this letter.

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Postby alijsh » 2007-09-30, 10:22

Sisyphe wrote:I think I'm going to ditch modern Turkish for a while...This has more cognates. :wink: And they're easier to recognize too. :lol: This script I prefer also haha. 8)

Admittedly, Ottoman Turkish has its own beauties. As we say in Persian, har gol ye buyi dâre (each flower has a smell) :wink:

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For those interestd in Ottoman Turkish, this thread of how-to-learn-any-language froum may be useful.

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Postby linguanima » 2007-12-24, 11:45

How easy would Ottoman Turkish be if I knew Arabic, Persian and Modern Turkish?
Şərqiy hünərlər: [flag]ug[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]fa[/flag] [flag]mn[/flag]
Ğərbiy hünərlər: [flag]en[/flag] [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]el[/flag]

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kalemiye
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Postby kalemiye » 2007-12-24, 11:46

I've heard it would be pretty easy, since it is a mix of all those. Although it has some peculiarities.
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Postby huhmzah » 2007-12-24, 18:59

How easy would Ottoman Turkish be if I knew Arabic, Persian and Modern Turkish?


I'd say it'd be fairly easy if you knew all three!

One peculiarity that I found while studying Ottoman Turkish is that there are several "Persian" and "Arabic" terms that in fact not "Persian" or "Arabic" at all - and are neologisms created by Ottoman-Turkish i.e. they were terms coined in Arabic and Persian but by the Ottoman writers and then re-borrowed into Persian and Arabic. What's ironic is that many of these terms were cast out of Turkish during the language reforms for not being Turkish enough, even though it is in Turkey that they were born, and from Turkey that they were borrowed.

What is REALLY intriguing about Ottoman Turkish though is that there are some "neologisms" created with Persian and Arabic combined! (Anyone who knows the two languages, knows that morphologically they are worlds apart). One such word is "nezaket" نزاكت which (survives in Mod. Turkish) and was seen as an Arabic borrowing - but no such word "نزاكة" exists in Arabic in fact no such root exists.

The word - bearing an "pronounced-ta-marboota" look to it, is in fact the Persian word "Nazuk" (gentle) morphed into the Arabic template "C-i-C-aa-C-a(t)" such as in كتابة. The word "nezaket" was borrowed from Osmanlica into Farsi AND Urdu, and is used to this day. There are several other words too such as "Refaqat" (softness), "Halaakat" (dying) etc which are Arabic roots, fixed into Arabic templates but by Osmanli writers. (These however were never really re-borrowed into Arabic, but are found in languages like Urdu and Farsi.

Also, the book that I found at my university library is called "Grammaire Turke: Langue et la Littérature des Nations Orientales." It's an ooooold and big book (the copy my library has is falling apart literally, its from the mid 1800s) BUT it's very thorough and it was very helpeful.

and as for

Sisyphe wrote:
I think I'm going to ditch modern Turkish for a while...This has more cognates. And they're easier to recognize too. This script I prefer also haha.


I TOTALLY agree haha. Sometimes while reading modern Turkish and I wanna bang my head on the wall -- I mean, it's a great language, but sometimes there's nothing for me to hook on to! And some of those neologisms are just horrendous, especially when you think about the pleasant-sounding Farsi word they replaced.

With Osmanlica, there's a nice Farsi word waiting for you at every corner. I try to cheat and use Farsi words in Modern Turkish when I don't know the neologism, but then I get reprimanded by my Turkish instructor for writing like his grandfather lol. But I still have the urge sometimes to write asuman instead of gök, or hemşire instead of kιzkardeş, or
hoşgeli instead of güzellik ;) lol.

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Postby kalemiye » 2007-12-24, 20:26

huhmzah wrote:Also, the book that I found at my university library is called "Grammaire Turke: Langue et la Littérature des Nations Orientales." It's an ooooold and big book (the copy my library has is falling apart literally, its from the mid 1800s) BUT it's very thorough and it was very helpeful.


What Osmanlica is taught in that book, classical osmanlica or yeni osmanlica?

and as for

Sisyphe wrote:
I think I'm going to ditch modern Turkish for a while...This has more cognates. And they're easier to recognize too. This script I prefer also haha.


I TOTALLY agree haha. Sometimes while reading modern Turkish and I wanna bang my head on the wall -- I mean, it's a great language, but sometimes there's nothing for me to hook on to! And some of those neologisms are just horrendous, especially when you think about the pleasant-sounding Farsi word they replaced.

With Osmanlica, there's a nice Farsi word waiting for you at every corner. I try to cheat and use Farsi words in Modern Turkish when I don't know the neologism, but then I get reprimanded by my Turkish instructor for writing like his grandfather lol. But I still have the urge sometimes to write asuman instead of gök, or hemşire instead of kιzkardeş, or
hoşgeli instead of güzellik ;) lol.


When I didn't know a word in Turkish I used to "turkify" an Arabic one and my teacher was like: "This is Turkish, not ottoman!", for instance, when I was like "Vallahi?" instead of "Sahiden mi?" :lol:. Anyways, I find Turkish beautiful without all those borrowings.
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Postby huhmzah » 2007-12-24, 21:10

"Sahiden mi?"


What's ironic is that "Sahiden mi?" has an Arabic word in it nonetheless صحيحدن مي؟ from "صحيح" :D

And to answer your question -- the book is fairly large, and goes through several different variants of the "Turkish" languages (Les Langues Turkes - basically all the turkic languages from Uyghur to Kazakh etc) ... The largest section however is dedicated to Osmanlιca, in fact that's most of the book - and its not classical, its Yeni Osmanlιca.

I started studying Osmanlιca before Mod. Turkish and found the book to be very clear BUT I think I should mention that since this book was published in the mid 1800s (mid 19th century i.e. pre-Ataturk) it uses French orthography when it wants to clarify the pronunciation of something like:
پاشاڭڭ كديسى باغيچه سينده اولدو.
"Pachaneň kédiçi baghitché çindé euldu."

Which is phonetically accurate, but looks like a mess if compared with the much neater:
"Paşanιn kedisi bahçesinde öldü."

So I would guess that anyone who learned the modern Turkish alphabet and then went back to this book, might find the phonetic-explanations unnecessarily messy and at times very different. There are several turkic words which were pronounced differently in Ottoman Turkish, ex: "daha" was "dakhi" /daxɪ/ or.. "için" was "itchoune" /iːʧyn/. I suppose the colloquial street pronunciations of these words were standardized and taken in by the reform movement rather than the bourgeois pronunciations that the book is probably based on.

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Postby kalemiye » 2007-12-25, 0:31

huhmzah wrote:
"Sahiden mi?"


What's ironic is that "Sahiden mi?" has an Arabic word in it nonetheless صحيحدن مي؟ from "صحيح" :D


I know, though in dialectal arabic sometimes only "sah?" is said, :lol:. There is anoter one, "gerkçen mi?"

And to answer your question -- the book is fairly large, and goes through several different variants of the "Turkish" languages (Les Langues Turkes - basically all the turkic languages from Uyghur to Kazakh etc) ... The largest section however is dedicated to Osmanlιca, in fact that's most of the book - and its not classical, its Yeni Osmanlιca.


That's why I asked, because classical osmanlica is way harder. Yeni osmanlica was an attempt to make osmanlica easier and maybe, more widespread, though It was mostly a bureaucratic language (although there are many poems and works written in it), may scholars wrote their works directly in Arabic of Farsi (usually in Arabic when it was science-related or religion-related and Farsi when it was a poem, etc). I've seen some old fermans and the calligraphy is hell. Maybe you are used to it, because it's very closed to Farsi's standard calligraphy.

I remember once I read a poem written in osmanlica (although I can't tell which one it was) and it was very close to modern Turkish and could understand much of it.

How does osmanlica help you in your studies of the Northern African vilayats?

I started studying Osmanlιca before Mod. Turkish and found the book to be very clear BUT I think I should mention that since this book was published in the mid 1800s (mid 19th century i.e. pre-Ataturk) it uses French orthography when it wants to clarify the pronunciation of something like:
پاشاڭڭ كديسى باغيچه سينده اولدو.
"Pachaneň kédiçi baghitché çindé euldu."

Which is phonetically accurate, but looks like a mess if compared with the much neater:
"Paşanιn kedisi bahçesinde öldü."


I always wondered how the French hear, because some of their transcriptions just work for them :lol:. I particularly hate the way French transliterate Arabic.

So I would guess that anyone who learned the modern Turkish alphabet and then went back to this book, might find the phonetic-explanations unnecessarily messy and at times very different. There are several turkic words which were pronounced differently in Ottoman Turkish, ex: "daha" was "dakhi" /daxɪ/ or.. "için" was "itchoune" /iːʧyn/. I suppose the colloquial street pronunciations of these words were standardized and taken in by the reform movement rather than the bourgeois pronunciations that the book is probably based on.


Anyways, from what you say, it seems to be a good book, at least to know the basics of Yeni Osmanlica. You are lucky to have one, in my university's library's catalogue appears a handbook of Osmanlica, but when I asked for it, it seemed to have disappeared :(.
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Postby huhmzah » 2007-12-25, 1:27

There is anoter one, "gerkçen mi?"


Ah! I've read "gerçekten?" - is that the same is "gerkçen mi?"

the calligraphy is hell


Oh yea you're absolutely right! I've grown up writing/reading the "nastalique" script but even I can't decipher a lot of that calligraphy mostly because most of the time they are in the Arabic "Riqa" or "Diwani" scripts rather than the Persian "nastalique" script. Arabs tells me they find Nastalique impossible to read, so I guess its all relative. :D

But Ottoman-Turkish + Diwani/Riqa = Recipe for Insanity. Fortunately the books teaching Ottoman use type-set letters which are wayy easier to follow. Btw, here's one you could use -- it's all online:
http://books.google.com/books?id=j0u9Mw-TsyIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ottoman+turkish&ei=PlZwR5-DG56EiQG98uh3#PPR1,M1

How does osmanlica help you in your studies of the Northern African vilayats?


Well, the Ottomans ruled over those areas for a period of time, so Ottoman Turkish and "Ottoman Arabic" affected the dialects of those areas - some features are more apparent than others, for instance the suffix "-çi", which occurs in the Tunisian Dialect etc. Lexical borrowings such as "Barsha", "Bey" and "Basha" are some other remnants.

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Postby kalemiye » 2007-12-25, 11:35

huhmzah wrote:
There is anoter one, "gerkçen mi?"


Ah! I've read "gerçekten?" - is that the same is "gerkçen mi?"


It's gerkçekten mi :lol:, first I wrote Gerkçe and then decided that I should write the question instead and I added just an "n" and not the whole suffix for reasons I cannot understand :lol:, I guess it is a typo. Thanks for the correction.

the calligraphy is hell


Oh yea you're absolutely right! I've grown up writing/reading the "nastalique" script but even I can't decipher a lot of that calligraphy mostly because most of the time they are in the Arabic "Riqa" or "Diwani" scripts rather than the Persian "nastalique" script. Arabs tells me they find Nastalique impossible to read, so I guess its all relative. :D

But Ottoman-Turkish + Diwani/Riqa = Recipe for Insanity. Fortunately the books teaching Ottoman use type-set letters which are wayy easier to follow. Btw, here's one you could use -- it's all online:
http://books.google.com/books?id=j0u9Mw-TsyIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ottoman+turkish&ei=PlZwR5-DG56EiQG98uh3#PPR1,M1


It's like a hell of lines and dots - :lol:. My teacher told me that he had seen fermans from the 15TH century that are very difficult to "decipher", since there weren't standarized forms for some words, etc.

I never really understood why the ottomans created such an artificial language.

How does osmanlica help you in your studies of the Northern African vilayats?


Well, the Ottomans ruled over those areas for a period of time, so Ottoman Turkish and "Ottoman Arabic" affected the dialects of those areas - some features are more apparent than others, for instance the suffix "-çi", which occurs in the Tunisian Dialect etc. Lexical borrowings such as "Barsha", "Bey" and "Basha" are some other remnants.


Oh, ok, so you are doing linguistic research on Arabic, I though you were doing historical research. Turkish definitely affected northern african dialects, specially tunisian and egyptian arabic (egyptian sellers sometimes shout "YA AFANDI!" meaning efendi :lol:).

Maybe there are more borrowings in the Shami dialects though, for instance, I remember that a dessert called "baklava" in Turkish is very popular in Syria and it's called "baqlawa" (sorry, I can't write Arabic characters).
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Postby kalemiye » 2007-12-25, 11:53

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Enjoy! :twisted:
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Postby Mert » 2007-12-25, 11:58

Allah muhabbetinizi artırsın! :lol:

''Gerçekten'' is true. :wink:
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